Will Bitcoin get faster transactions like Litecoin?

[Abiky]

I know how disappointing it is for having to wait around 15 to 30 minutes for a Bitcoin transaction to get confirmed by the network. But I think faster transactions could be achieved if devs decide to improve the code. Just look at Litecoin, Dogecoin, and Ethereum. They have faster confirmation times and some good features. I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be improved in the near future and it will remain as the top crypto currency.
What do you think about it? 

[calkob]

I know how disappointing it is for having to wait around 15 to 30 minutes for a Bitcoin transaction to get confirmed by the network. But I think faster transactions could be achieved if devs decide to improve the code. Just look at Litecoin, Dogecoin, and Ethereum. They have faster confirmation times and some good features. I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be improved in the near future and it will remain as the top crypto currency.
What do you think about it?  

im not sure your understanding how crypto currencies work, to change the confirmation time of Bitcoin would be to change Bitcoin, which would probably destroy it at this stage.  there are a set amount of Bitcoins to be created on a set time scale, with each confirmation.  Every 10mins 25BTC and after (roughly) July 2016 every 10 mins 12.5BTC and so on halving every 4 years.  

Can you see how lowering the confirmation time would be detrimental?  it would need to either create more Bitcoin or some confirmations would not create any bitcoin which miners need at this stage to reward them...... litecoin, dogecoin and ethereum are all set up with vastly greater amounts to be created.  For example litecoin confirms i think 4 times faster but also is set to produce 4 times more coins.  dogecoin and ether dont have any limet on the coins created as far as i am aware, all tho i do stand to be corrected on this one.  

21,000,000BTC is all that is ever going to be created, this is what makes each bitcoin valuable and scarce.

i find it really strange that someone who is a full member on bitcointalk dosnt understand this confirmation times on bitcoin will never be changed

[justspare]

You can't just change a major part of Bitcoin, the transaction code, without completely changing Bitcoin. I don't think you understand how cryptocurrencies work. All those other cryptocurrencies that you listed are different to Bitcoin. Bitcoin will never become like them.

[VeritasSapere]

It is technically possible to change this within Bitcoin, the emission schedule could even be adjusted to allow for quicker confirmation times without changing the total supply of Bitcoin. However I doubt that this is practically possible, such a change would require the economic majority to believe very strongly that such a change is important, I do not think that such a change would be implemented in Bitcoin because it is simply not important enough unlike present issue with the blocksize.

[Pattart]

This is not some matter that can be fixed with "improved code". The confirmations times are with block generation times and network consensus. To change this would require a hard fork, and there is no reason to change it.

[Vod]

21,000,000BTC is all that is ever going to be created, this is what makes each bitcoin valuable and scarce. for example if you own 21BTC you are always going to be in the 1% club.

Actually, you would need 210,000 btc to be in the 1% club.  

i find it really strange that someone who is a full member on bitcointalk dosnt understand this

[mobnepal]

Noway bitcoin confirmation time is always set at 10 minutes or around 10 minutes. If it can be set lower than block halving will occur to often and people specially miners don't get time to adjust them self with the price and mining reward. This may kill the entire bitcoin network.

[quentincole32]

I know how disappointing it is for having to wait around 15 to 30 minutes for a Bitcoin transaction to get confirmed by the network. But I think faster transactions could be achieved if devs decide to improve the code. Just look at Litecoin, Dogecoin, and Ethereum. They have faster confirmation times and some good features. I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be improved in the near future and it will remain as the top crypto currency.
What do you think about it? 

no i dont think bitcoin transaction will be like litecoin transaction,it because different node and amount of transaction,so many bitcoin and high amount of transaction,it sometime make bitcoin transaction longer than litecoin.

[Blind Legs Parker]

Actually, you would need 210,000 btc to be in the 1% club.  

Being in the 1% club doesn't mean that you own 1% of all the bitcoins that are out there. It's about being in the 1% people in the world who own the most bitcoins.
In the most extreme case it can even be done by just having 1 satoshi if the rest of the bitcoins belong to only one person. In that case you would even be in a much more restricted club since only two people own bitcoins: you and an extremely wealthy guy. You'd be in the 2/7000000000 club (7000000000 being an estimation of the world's population as of now). That's the 2.857142857142857*10e-8% club. Very restricted indeed.

I don't know what sources calkob used to claim that having 21BTC would make you a member of the 1% club, though. As far as I know it could be less, or it could be more. But it definitely doesn't share that close a connection with what share you actually own.

As for the subject of the topic, calkob already answered the question: bitcoin confirmation time will never get faster.

[bearex]

I think it will not be possible. I do aggree however that this is a major downfall for bitcoin; 10 minutes for a single confirmation.

[Amph]

only with sidechain maybe, so if you're worried about this to happen or not, wait for that because it the most near thing to altcoin, you cna get for bitcoin

no hard forking for change this stuff will ever be made in bitcoin

[LiteCoinGuy]

i dont think that this is necessary for bitcoin. you can get fast transactions without changing that (SC). but in any case: it is wise to hold some Litecoin too  

[delliaerd]

I think how long the bitcoin transactions not serious problem. We just be patient. But if the developer wants to improve this feature it would be better

[andreld]

Faster block time (first confirmation) will create more orphan blocks. It is not good for the security of the coin. If really fast confirmation is needed, you can use Ethereum. The block time is about 18 seconds. But you need hundreds of confirmation to say you securely receive the funds.

[n2004al]

I know how disappointing it is for having to wait around 15 to 30 minutes for a Bitcoin transaction to get confirmed by the network. But I think faster transactions could be achieved if devs decide to improve the code. Just look at Litecoin, Dogecoin, and Ethereum. They have faster confirmation times and some good features. I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be improved in the near future and it will remain as the top crypto currency.
What do you think about it?  

The above things are developers stuffs. So I cannot tell nothing because I don't understand nothing about the probable possibilities or the ways that must be followed to have confirmations. Have no meaning to tell that is very boring to wait for the confirmation in order that your bitcoin have the right to be used or treated as given definitely to its destination. It is a little improvement compared with the beginning (two-three years ago) regarding the confirmations (before needed at least 6 confirmations that the transaction be considered as good from the other part which received the bitcoins while today it is enough even if have only one or two or max three) but not enough to not consider again boring the wait.

Anyhow the main reason of this my post is not much the normal wait for the first, second or third confirmation for the normal transactions (which normally last 10-30 min) but for the "lack and the missing first one confirmation" for that kind of transaction treated by the blockchain and the miners as unworthy and leaved without confirmation for hours and hours. Its turn to be confirmed bypassed continuously from more "important" ones and the sender must wait since some miner or the God itself see that exist and must be treated as the others. This is the must tormentress wait. Especially if you need that this transaction goes as soon as it would possible in destination (because of various reasons or needs). There are such kind of things that must be fixed before all. Every transaction must have the undeniable right to be confirmed when it is its turn. Period. After the solution of this situation can come the solution of all the other ones.

[avw1982]

I know how disappointing it is for having to wait around 15 to 30 minutes for a Bitcoin transaction to get confirmed by the network. But I think faster transactions could be achieved if devs decide to improve the code. Just look at Litecoin, Dogecoin, and Ethereum. They have faster confirmation times and some good features. I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be improved in the near future and it will remain as the top crypto currency.
What do you think about it? 

BTC transactions takes longer time to complete the transaction especially in confirmation part, I think this problems will fix soon and more faster transaction We can see and confirmation also will be very fast as soon as possible.

[betohell]

I think how long the bitcoin transactions not serious problem. We just be patient. But if the developer wants to improve this feature it would be better

Nope. users need fast transactions. now sending bitcoin to get 1 confirmation takes a few minutes. maybe 10 minutes
If this continues to happen. customers will go out
not everyone can wait

[Jungian]

10 minute blocks are there for a reason

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0fHpQV9wHo

[bob123]

I think how long the bitcoin transactions not serious problem. We just be patient. But if the developer wants to improve this feature it would be better

Nope. users need fast transactions. now sending bitcoin to get 1 confirmation takes a few minutes. maybe 10 minutes
If this continues to happen. customers will go out
not everyone can wait

I rather wait 10 minutes than 3 days when using bank.

[xeryan]

6-15 minutes are for one block, but usually you'll need at least 3 confirmations to trust a payment which increment the waiting time to 18-45 minutes (average is 30).
Still better than banks

For now, focus on major scaling problems of the bitcoin that require more attention

[extrabyte]

Bitcoin transaction are not fast right now if the transaction fees are low, if they are high like 0.0001-0.0002 then the transaction gets fast confirmed, but with the increase of number of miners the transaction will be faster maybe faster than litecoin.

[Proxiebuier]

i think if you give "higher fee" your transaction will be faster than litecoin
but normally bitcoin and litecoin is diffirent cryptocoin, bitcoin use SHA-256 algorithm and litecoin use Scrypt algorithm

read at here http://www.coindesk.com/information/comparing-litecoin-bitcoin/

[hawkins]

of course, the current bitcoin users more than litecoin, the current natural that litecoin transactions faster than bitcoin but there comes a time bitcoin will be the only coins which transaction very quickly 

[adamstgBit]

i don't think the 10mins in between block will ever change.

but thats not a problem

tx are instant, and if you have some software doing a little work, you can make sure unconfirmed tx will confirm.

acutely you could...
if you:

goto blockchain.info get a payment and sit on that page for 30secs, if it dosnt say double spend after 30s its very likly this TX will confirm even if a double spend is started later, becase it was seen first by the hole network.

[Proxiebuier]

IT's possible to change mean block time from 10 minutes to be faster, but it needs hard fork & it can't happen easily.
Also, some problem could happen if mean block time is very fast.

But, zero confirmation will solve everything, if every merchant accept zero confirmation.

i think 100% of bitcoin user will not agree to bitcoin fork
and without satosi what can comunity do ? to forking bitcoin

[jt byte]

I'm sure they can adjust this for bitcoin but why would they? Waiting 10 -15 min is not that bad at all.
You try finding a bank who can make transactions that fast.

[greBit]

Bitcoin transaction are not fast right now if the transaction fees are low, if they are high like 0.0001-0.0002 then the transaction gets fast confirmed, but with the increase of number of miners the transaction will be faster maybe faster than litecoin.

That's for sure if the transaction fees are high then the Bitcoin transaction will be faster, let's hope for the increased number of miner so that BTC transaction should become faster. It will become faster after all Bitcoin is the future currency.

[European Central Bank]

If Litecoin was used as much as bitcoin is then there would be threads asking the same question about another alt that is supposedly faster. I guess that's the price of success.

[VeritasSapere]

I know how disappointing it is for having to wait around 15 to 30 minutes for a Bitcoin transaction to get confirmed by the network. But I think faster transactions could be achieved if devs decide to improve the code. Just look at Litecoin, Dogecoin, and Ethereum. They have faster confirmation times and some good features. I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be improved in the near future and it will remain as the top crypto currency.
What do you think about it?  

no i dont think bitcoin transaction will be like litecoin transaction,it because different node and amount of transaction,so many bitcoin and high amount of transaction,it sometime make bitcoin transaction longer than litecoin.

Confirmation delays only happen once the blocks fill up and because of Litecoins increased transaction speed it has four times the transaction capacity compared to Bitcoin. As was mentioned earlier increased confirmation times will also lead to an increased rate of orphans so there are also downsides to doing this.

[randy8777]

i understand that people would love to see bitcoin get faster confirmation times. i would love faster confirmations too. but we have to be realistic and know that this is not something that will be implemented within a few years, if ever. forget it.

[VeritasSapere]

Bitcoin transaction are not fast right now if the transaction fees are low, if they are high like 0.0001-0.0002 then the transaction gets fast confirmed, but with the increase of number of miners the transaction will be faster maybe faster than litecoin.

That's for sure if the transaction fees are high then the Bitcoin transaction will be faster, let's hope for the increased number of miner so that BTC transaction should become faster. It will become faster after all Bitcoin is the future currency.

This is incorrect, the amount of miners in Bitcoin does not effect confirmation time whatsoever.

[bhokor]

Then wich are the incenveniences of low the block time, which are the risk beyond the make of the hard fork?

[VeritasSapere]

Then wich are the incenveniences of low the block time, which are the risk beyond the make of the hard fork?

Like was already said increased orphan rate. I actually prefer hard forks for political reasons, so I do not think that should be a good reason not to implement changes by itself at least. As far as I understand it however if all other conditions where the same 1hr of waiting with a 10min confirmation time would give the same or very similar amount of security compared to 1hr of waiting with a 2.5min confirmation time. I mean it could be argued that say a 5min confirmation time would be an improvement it is just not important enough, I do not expect this to be ever changed, I certainly would not support such a change considering there is still other very important work that still needs to be done. So i do agree with randy8777, forget about it. lol

[franky1]

right now every 2016 blocks the difficulty calculation is done

to get a m2:30s average block would instead of m10:00s require 3 things
1. 8064 requirement before calculation.
2. difficulty reduced to allow for faster mining.
3. reward reduction from 25 to 6.25btc..

basically right now to make it 4 times faster you need to let it solve 4 times as many blocks every 2 weeks its recalculated.. which is where the 8064 block calculation comes in. because eventually this will be 2weeks (once difficulty settles)
also to stay on track for the 21mill cap. the reward, now there are 4 times as many transactions happening.. will need to be decreased to 6.25

which next year at the natural reward halving will be 3.125btc per block

[Abiky]

I know how disappointing it is for having to wait around 15 to 30 minutes for a Bitcoin transaction to get confirmed by the network. But I think faster transactions could be achieved if devs decide to improve the code. Just look at Litecoin, Dogecoin, and Ethereum. They have faster confirmation times and some good features. I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be improved in the near future and it will remain as the top crypto currency.
What do you think about it?  

im not sure your understanding how crypto currencies work, to change the confirmation time of Bitcoin would be to change Bitcoin, which would probably destroy it at this stage.  there are a set amount of Bitcoins to be created on a set time scale, with each confirmation.  Every 10mins 25BTC and after (roughly) July 2016 every 10 mins 12.5BTC and so on halving every 4 years.  

Can you see how lowering the confirmation time would be detrimental?  it would need to either create more Bitcoin or some confirmations would not create any bitcoin which miners need at this stage to reward them...... litecoin, dogecoin and ethereum are all set up with vastly greater amounts to be created.  For example litecoin confirms i think 4 times faster but also is set to produce 4 times more coins.  dogecoin and ether dont have any limet on the coins created as far as i am aware, all tho i do stand to be corrected on this one.  

21,000,000BTC is all that is ever going to be created, this is what makes each bitcoin valuable and scarce.

i find it really strange that someone who is a full member on bitcointalk dosnt understand this confirmation times on bitcoin will never be changed

I understand what you mean. Even though I am a full member, I still have a lot to learn about Bitcoin (technical stuff) before deciding to make something useful (like a Bitcoin application) It is still great to see members of the community helping each other in the time of need. I need to do a lot of research regarding technical stuff of crypto currencies.  

[dothebeats]

IT's possible to change mean block time from 10 minutes to be faster, but it needs hard fork & it can't happen easily.
Also, some problem could happen if mean block time is very fast.

But, zero confirmation will solve everything, if every merchant accept zero confirmation.

Every merchant without proper understanding of the nature of double spends and the malleable nature of bitcoin would surely get rekt by implementing this 0 confirmation thing on their platforms. Don't need to iterate this, but it's pretty obvious that any tx without confirmations from the network could probably be double-spent. Also, forking off bitcoin from its original code would surely destroy it, thus rendering it valueless. I wonder why it is an issue on confirmation? Pay a slightly higher fee on your tx then you're good to go.

[MaritiJames3]

The current block time works fine, so I don't thing the developers will change that.
Why risk downtime and confusing if it is working fine right.

[VeritasSapere]

IT's possible to change mean block time from 10 minutes to be faster, but it needs hard fork & it can't happen easily.
Also, some problem could happen if mean block time is very fast.

But, zero confirmation will solve everything, if every merchant accept zero confirmation.

Every merchant without proper understanding of the nature of double spends and the malleable nature of bitcoin would surely get rekt by implementing this 0 confirmation thing on their platforms. Don't need to iterate this, but it's pretty obvious that any tx without confirmations from the network could probably be double-spent. Also, forking off bitcoin from its original code would surely destroy it, thus rendering it valueless. I wonder why it is an issue on confirmation? Pay a slightly higher fee on your tx then you're good to go.

I think that zero confirmation works fine for a retail environment, it is even better when using a payment processor as well, which shields the merchant against the risk of double spends. I also think that hard forks are part of an important process in Bitcoin to resolve major disagreements when they arrive, I think it is wrong to think that a hard fork would destroy Bitcoin. Hard forks solve the age old problem of tyranny of the majority, this mechanism is critical for the governance structure of Bitcoin.

[Arcteryx]

That would never happen as litecoin is less established and does not have as much as a client base as the number of bitcoin users and transactions have a wide gap between the two.
I had a litecoin client running last year and it was lightening quick to receive those confirmations. I can't imagine that speed would of changed as it would of progressed by now. But bitcoin on the other hand would now be slower than the same time last year due to the saturation of users and transactions going out in that time.

[larem]

I know how disappointing it is for having to wait around 15 to 30 minutes for a Bitcoin transaction to get confirmed by the network. But I think faster transactions could be achieved if devs decide to improve the code. Just look at Litecoin, Dogecoin, and Ethereum. They have faster confirmation times and some good features. I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be improved in the near future and it will remain as the top crypto currency.
What do you think about it? 

Bitcoin isn't meant to be an instant transfer. It's meant to be a SAFE one. Think of it as being like virtual gold.

[Blue_Tiger73]

They are two completely different cryptocurrencies. You can't just take one part from one of them and put into the other. That's not how it works.

[Blue_Tiger73]

Noway bitcoin confirmation time is always set at 10 minutes or around 10 minutes. If it can be set lower than block halving will occur to often and people specially miners don't get time to adjust them self with the price and mining reward. This may kill the entire bitcoin network.

Exactly. Some people jus don't understand basic things like this. Your transaction is always going to take this amount of time so get over it. Nothing is going to change.

[faridkifly]

I know how disappointing it is for having to wait around 15 to 30 minutes for a Bitcoin transaction to get confirmed by the network. But I think faster transactions could be achieved if devs decide to improve the code. Just look at Litecoin, Dogecoin, and Ethereum. They have faster confirmation times and some good features. I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be improved in the near future and it will remain as the top crypto currency.
What do you think about it? 

yes it's bothering me too.
but if i think logically, bitcoin users is more than litecoin. so it takes longer time for the transaction

[crazywack]

No it's perfect as it is. Companies like lightning are creating systems to circumvent waiting for the next block.

[AndySt]

While this is not the main problem. The community seems satisfied with the current speed of transactions and I do not think that on this issue, will be amended to the code in the near future.

[Jeremycoin]

I rather choose a secure transaction rather than fast transaction, so I think there's no problem with the transaction speed.

[helloeverybody]

So if we can't change Bitcoin to be faster then what's the chances of it being completely replaced with some alt coin that's 10x faster?

[BTCdoctor]

I hope it could, because the transaction times are long

[Newcoins2020]

It doesn't really matter to me. I'm fine with the way it is right now.
It's faster than a regular bank transaction, I don't see why you guys are complaining about a 10 minute transaction.

[richardsNY]

The confirmation times are not the fastest, I know. But it doesn't really bother me as it some times confirms my transactions within 5 minutes. And some times you have to wait around 30 minutes. Let it be. Nothing will change. Just make sure you add the right amount as fee to make sure your transaction gets confirmend within 2 blocks.

[Jungian]

So if we can't change Bitcoin to be faster then what's the chances of it being completely replaced with some alt coin that's 10x faster?

Zero chance. Like it was explained in the video I posted in this thread earlier about the opportunity cost of shorter block intervals.
The block time was carefully chosen for good reasons.

[btckold24]

just shows how bad we solid atms / atm cards and other ways to spend bitcoins.
Could you imagine grocery shopping with each person taking 10-15
minutes in line waiting for money to go through.

[Abiky]

I know how disappointing it is for having to wait around 15 to 30 minutes for a Bitcoin transaction to get confirmed by the network. But I think faster transactions could be achieved if devs decide to improve the code. Just look at Litecoin, Dogecoin, and Ethereum. They have faster confirmation times and some good features. I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be improved in the near future and it will remain as the top crypto currency.
What do you think about it? 

Bitcoin isn't meant to be an instant transfer. It's meant to be a SAFE one. Think of it as being like virtual gold.

So the slower confirmation time is the safer Bitcoins is? I guess that is better than having faster transactions at the cost of security. If I have to wait 15 minutes or even 30, then I would be patient. I could still pay a higher fee to speed up transactions, but I will stick to wait a little longer. At least it is faster than Banks. 

[pereira4]

Litecoin solves nothing and will eventually meet the same fate as Bitcoin, but the good news is in Bitcoin we have the best developers in the game therefore the scaling issue is way safer in Bitcoin than in any other cryptocurrency, the rest will (as always) keep imitating Bitcoin if they want to remain relevant.

[bitsmichel]

I know how disappointing it is for having to wait around 15 to 30 minutes for a Bitcoin transaction to get confirmed by the network. But I think faster transactions could be achieved if devs decide to improve the code. Just look at Litecoin, Dogecoin, and Ethereum. They have faster confirmation times and some good features. I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be improved in the near future and it will remain as the top crypto currency.
What do you think about it? 

Bitcoin isn't meant to be an instant transfer. It's meant to be a SAFE one. Think of it as being like virtual gold.

So the slower confirmation time is the safer Bitcoins is? I guess that is better than having faster transactions at the cost of security. If I have to wait 15 minutes or even 30, then I would be patient. I could still pay a higher fee to speed up transactions, but I will stick to wait a little longer. At least it is faster than Banks. 

Bank transactions take more than 24 hours sometimes. They are extremely slow

[Hellacopter]

I know how disappointing it is for having to wait around 15 to 30 minutes for a Bitcoin transaction to get confirmed by the network. But I think faster transactions could be achieved if devs decide to improve the code. Just look at Litecoin, Dogecoin, and Ethereum. They have faster confirmation times and some good features. I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be improved in the near future and it will remain as the top crypto currency.
What do you think about it? 

It's depending with the mining rewards and the miners work online in the near future , if we talk about the transaction's confirmations , because that's in fact the job of miners which they are rewarded about

[chennan]

I rather choose a secure transaction rather than fast transaction, so I think there's no problem with the transaction speed.

I agree, but there are more problems to worry about too, like how much longer can bitcoin provide reliable and somewhat decent transaction speed when more people are getting introduced to bitcoin every day?  If a major country like the US were to fully adopt bitcoin, there would be maxed out blocks all the time and it would take for ever for confirmations to happen.  It's not necessarily a bad thing by any means, as bitcoin can still get the job done... but it just reminds me of dial up internet.  That's the type of speeds we're at right now, and I believe sooner or later we will progress into faster and faster confirmation times that can process tons of transactions per second... technology is exponentially getting better every single day, there's just no denying that.

[larem]

I know how disappointing it is for having to wait around 15 to 30 minutes for a Bitcoin transaction to get confirmed by the network. But I think faster transactions could be achieved if devs decide to improve the code. Just look at Litecoin, Dogecoin, and Ethereum. They have faster confirmation times and some good features. I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be improved in the near future and it will remain as the top crypto currency.
What do you think about it? 

Bitcoin isn't meant to be an instant transfer. It's meant to be a SAFE one. Think of it as being like virtual gold.

So the slower confirmation time is the safer Bitcoins is? I guess that is better than having faster transactions at the cost of security. If I have to wait 15 minutes or even 30, then I would be patient. I could still pay a higher fee to speed up transactions, but I will stick to wait a little longer. At least it is faster than Banks. 

Bank transactions take more than 24 hours sometimes. They are extremely slow

The reason they take longer is because of how they work. Can't go into all the details without writing a multi-page report but the tl;dr is:

Bank 1 initiates transfer to central banking system
Central banking system initiates transfer to bank 2
Bank 2 accepts transfer

Throughout all of this, many other things are occurring, including verification, logging of all banking data, analyzing for various things (like laundering), and more. It's not as simple as just sending a transaction.

[lolgato]

You can't just change that without the price taking a tank it will affect the price massively

[jacktheking]

I would actually like to have faster Bitcoin confirmation. However, I am also used to this slow confirmation time.

I dont think that Bitcoin will implant a new Core that will have faster transaction. As the developers is really picky about new updates. One update could affect the whole network a lot.

[larem]

You can't just change that without the price taking a tank it will affect the price massively

I have no idea where this claim comes from. Its block speed has nothing to do with price (assuming creation occurs at the same rate).