Liberty Dollars ban goes into effect at eBay

[Dusty]

I quote the text from this article, that seems very relevant to this community:

At the request of the U.S. Secret Service, eBay has begun purging the online auction site of listings offering for sale Liberty Dollar medallions in gold, silver, platinum and copper.

Officials at eBay indicate the systematic removal beginning Nov. 29 of the listings is intended to conform with its policy implemented Feb. 20 banning the listing of counterfeits and replicas on eBay.com.

In emails sent by eBay to sellers whose listings for Liberty Dollars were canceled, officials at the online auction site expressed their regrets for having to take the action.

“The United States Secret Service has requested the removal of all Norfed Liberty dollars on the eBay site as counterfeits. ...

“Please do not relist this item(s).

“We appreciate that you chose to list this coin on our site and understand there was no ill intent on your part. Your listing fees have been credited to your account.”

Contacted by Coin World, eBay spokesman Ryan Moore offered the following comment: “The listings for Norfed Liberty Dollars have been removed as they have been deemed counterfeit by the United States Secret Service. Counterfeits are illegal and not welcome on any of eBay’s sites.”

NORFED is more formally known as the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act and the Internal Revenue Code. The group issued Liberty Dollar medallions as an alternative to Federal Reserve notes, and advocated their commercial use.

Canceled eBay listings

Dave Gillie, who began buying and selling Liberty Dollars in 2001 and later became a regional currency officer for NORFED, said Dec. 5 that he had eight of his listings for Liberty Dollars canceled on Nov. 29.

Gillie still accepts Liberty Dollars at his Gillie’s Coney Island restaurant in Mount Morris, Mich., in payment for meals.

The dealer was perplexed by the government’s characterization of Liberty Dollars as counterfeits. Gillie said in a Dec. 5 email to Coin World that out of respect for eBay’s “coerced” decision he will not list Liberty Dollars for sale at the website until “they change their policy again.”

Gillie estimates he has sold and exchanged thousands of Liberty Dollars in the years he’s been involved with them. Gillie says he’s also purchased hundreds of Liberty Dollars from former NORFED regional currency officers leery about what legal action authorities could take against those own Liberty Dollars.

Liberty Dollars targeted

The Liberty Dollar, introduced in 1998 by its monetary architect, Bernard von NotHaus, was deemed counterfeit during a March 2011 federal trial in North Carolina. Von NotHaus was convicted on four counts involving the production and distribution of the Liberty Dollars. Von NotHaus has yet to be sentenced.

Von NotHaus billed Liberty Dollars as an alternative form of money for those who do not want to use Federal Reserve notes. Federal officials claimed the metallic Liberty Dollars violated federal counterfeiting laws.

Coin World contacted the U.S. Secret Service’s Office of Public Affairs in Washington, D.C., as well as the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Charlotte, N.C., for specific comments regarding the issues of ownership and sale of Liberty Dollars still in collector hands. As of Dec. 7, no responses had been given to Coin World.

In 2006, the U.S. Mint issued a press release stating that prosecutors at the Department of Justice determined that using Liberty Dollars as circulating money is a federal crime.

The Liberty Dollar was introduced by NORFED as a “private voluntary barter currency,” with the medallions exchanged for goods and services with merchants willing to accept them according to the stated face value on each.

Several questions remain unanswered by the Secret Service:

➤ Are the pieces legal to own, sell, distribute or even exhibit for educational purposes at a coin show or other venue?

➤ Will federal law enforcement authorities seek to seize any of the tens of thousands of Liberty Dollars still in private hands?

Collector interest

Liberty Dollars were issued in multiple sizes and stated face values, with the silver 1-ounce pieces being the most popular used in exchanges. Face values changed over the years as the price of silver rose.

The medals proved popular with collectors.

With von NotHaus’ March, 18, 2011, conviction, values for Liberty Dollars were driven higher still. The number of eBay sales for such pieces also rose subsequent to the court case.

The seizure by federal authorities in November 2007 of millions of the Liberty Dollars held in a third-party warehouse in Idaho effectively shut down von NotHaus’ Liberty Services.

NORFED had been dissolved in December 2006, and resurrected as Liberty Services, doing business as Liberty Dollar. ■

[creativex]

The message is clear. Compete with the inflationary petrodollar and we'll toss you in the can and label you a terrorist.

On a side note, eBay/Paypal can go away now. SO done with those greedy bozos.

[DeathAndTaxes]

The message is clear. Compete with the inflationary petrodollar and we'll toss you in the can and label you a terrorist.

On a side note, eBay/Paypal can go away now. SO done with those greedy bozos.

Well no it is obvious that NotHaus was counterfeiting.  Sales were low so he used similar designs and false marketing in order to move more product.  IIRC in the trial one many of his merchants testified and presented sales docs where NORFED indicated that they could move more coins if they simply gave them as change without explanation.  A significant portion of the consumers would assume they were US currency.  Since merchants could buy the "money" at a discount to face value everyone wins.   Generally speaking if you pass off your currency as US currency it is counterfeiting.    

If NotHaus is your anti-FED hero well you need to pick better heroes.  Did you know the "Liberty Dollars" were inflationary.   They contained less than face value of silver and as the value of silver rose the coins became more and more debased. Greed pure and simple.

The fed being bad doesn't make NotHaus good.

It is an interesting legal situation though.   I guess worse case scenario coins holders would melt them down and get melt value for them.  Then again many paid huge huge premiums to melt value so they would be looking at a large (although not complete) loss.

[creativex]

The message is clear. Compete with the inflationary petrodollar and we'll toss you in the can and label you a terrorist.

On a side note, eBay/Paypal can go away now. SO done with those greedy bozos.

Well no it is obvious that NotHaus was counterfeiting.  Sales were low so he used similar designs and false marketing in order to move more product.  IIRC in the trial one many of his merchants testified and presented sales docs where NORFED indicated that they could move more coins if they simply gave them as change without explanation.  A significant portion of the consumers would assume they were US currency.  Since merchants could buy the "money" at a discount to face value everyone wins.   Generally speaking if you pass off your currency as US currency it is counterfeiting.    

If NotHaus is your anti-FED hero well you need to pick better heroes.  Did you know the "Liberty Dollars" were inflationary.   They contained less than face value of silver and as the value of silver rose the coins became more and more debased. Greed pure and simple.

The fed being bad doesn't make NotHaus good.

It is an interesting legal situation though.   I guess worse case scenario coins holders would melt them down and get melt value for them.  Then again many paid huge huge premiums to melt value so they would be looking at a large (although not complete) loss.

I agree that NotHaus was doing some shady stuff, and because of that I didn't invest. However none of this explains the terrorist label that's been applied to him. If he's a crook then let him stand trial as a crook, preferably next to the biggest counterfeiter of all...the Bernanke.

BTW...my anti-fed hero is Dr. Ron Paul.

[JackH]

Well even more reasons to ONLY use Bitcoin. Welcome to the future fiat people, this will overtake the world faster than anyone can imagine.

[Herodes]

At the request of the U.S. Secret Service, eBay has begun purging the online auction site of listings offering for sale Liberty Dollar medallions in gold, silver, platinum and copper.

Clearly a matter of a threat to the national security! My god, if anyone posesses medallions in those metals, clearly they posess a threat, and has to be deal with - A S A P !

[kokojie]

I think the take away from this story is: Can the US government use any angle to claim Bitcoin to be counterfeiting USD?

[creativex]

I think the take away from this story is: Can the US government use any angle to claim Bitcoin to be counterfeiting USD?

I thought the takeaway was that they didn't have to. Just claim BTC is a tool used by spooky anonymous terrorists and attack. That would seem to be more consistent with McCarth...er US policy.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I think the take away from this story is: Can the US government use any angle to claim Bitcoin to be counterfeiting USD?

I thought the takeaway was that they didn't have to. Just claim BTC is a tool used by spooky anonymous terrorists and attack. That would seem to be more consistent with McCarth...er US policy.

He was never charged with anything related to terrorism.  He was charged with counterfeiting US currency.  Tried and convicted and it was a pretty open and shut case.  It had nothing to do with creating a currency and everything to do with fraud.

So the takeaway is that anyone producing physical bitcoins should be very careful to ensure there is no likeness (intentional or otherwise) with US currency.   The use of $, "dollars",  "US", "In God we trust", and other currency emblems and icons should be avoided.  Things like "lady liberty", the "bald eagle", "stars & stripes", depictions of US landmarks (capital building, lincoln memorial) or persons used in current or out of circulation US currency are likely a foolish risk.

Making a bitcoin which looks like this for example would probably not be a good idea.  Attempting to pass it off as US currency to unsuspecting customers would be an even worse idea.  Nothaus did both.


To date I haven't seen any physical bitcoins (paper or coin) which could possibly be confused with US currency.  That is a good thing.

[creativex]

He was never charged with anything related to terrorism.

Charged? No. Labeled...yes. "Terrorist" is the new Communist label. Just accuse someone of it and strip all their rights without due process. If you think this isn't the case then ask al-awlaki what he thinks...or his kid. Oh wait...too late to talk to them.

Bernard von NotHaus
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bernard von NotHaus is the creator of the Liberty Dollar and co-founder of the Royal Hawaiian Mint Company.[1] He created the Free Marijuana Church of Honolulu.[2] Von NotHaus was labeled as a domestic terrorist by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation in 2011.[3]
According to the evidence introduced during his 2011 federal criminal trial in connection with his involvement with the Liberty Dollar, von NotHaus was the founder of an organization called the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Code, commonly known as NORFED and also known as Liberty Services. The FBI claimed that NORFED’s purpose was to mix Liberty Dollars into the current money of the United States and that NORFED intended for the Liberty Dollar to be used as current money in order to limit reliance on, and to compete with, United States currency.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_von_NotHaus

[DeathAndTaxes]

NotHaus did get his due process he was charged, tried, and convicted of counterfeiting US currency but don't let facts get in the way of a good rant.  It was NORFED self described purpose to overthrow the Federal Reserve and IRS by subverting the US money supply through the injection of alternatives using deception and covert means.

While "terrorist" is a stretch in my book it is not very hard to see why he would end up on the FBI and Secret Service radar.

[creativex]

NotHaus did get his due process he was charged, tried, and convicted of counterfeiting US currency but don't let facts get in the way of a good rant.  It was NORFED self described purpose to overthrow the Federal Reserve and IRS by subverting the US money supply through the injection of alternatives using deception and covert means.

While "terrorist" is a stretch in my book it is not very hard to see why he would end up on the FBI and Secret Service radar.

Never did I say he was charged with terrorism, that's the point. It's not necessary to charge someone with terrorism and then have to go through the work of proving it. Merely labeling someone a spooky "domestic terrorist" is enough to discredit.

Good on NORFED, the counterfeiters can fight amongst themselves then. Too bad for them the opposition has the tyrannical weight of the US goobermint behind it.

[allthingsluxury]

Wow that is actually quite sad.

[bitcoinbear]

Have these things started showing up for sale on Silk Road or Bitmit yet?

[Hexadecibel]

Liberty dollars were a scam. Move along nothing to see here..

[Stephen Gornick]

If NotHaus is your anti-FED hero well you need to pick better heroes.  Did you know the "Liberty Dollars" were inflationary.   They contained less than face value of silver and as the value of silver rose the coins became more and more debased. Greed pure and simple.

Just to make sure that isn't misunderstood, you don't mean traditional coin debasement methods where alloys are introduced like how a 1964 U.S. quarter had 90% silver content, but a 1965 quarter of the same shape, size and appearance had been debased with a copper and nickel coin with no silver content whatsoever.

Instead what the Liberty Dollar did was change the denomination stamped on the coin.  The earlier 1 ounce silver coin was stamped $10.  The later 1 ounce silver coin was stamped $20.






The price charged for an item in terms of Liberty Dollars though would fluctuate depending on the exchange rate for silver.

So a 2005 (1 ounce silver) $10 Liberty Dollar pictured above would (presumably) buy the same amount of goods and services that the 2006 (1 ounce silver) $20 Liberty Dollar would.

[Herodes]

Hah. I think they looked pretty nice. I wouldn't mind have one of those!

[Fcx35x10]

Those do look better than U.S minted ones :p

[Herodes]

Those do look better than U.S minted ones :p

Ssh. you might be conspiring to domestic terrorism!

[ShireSilver]

If NotHaus is your anti-FED hero well you need to pick better heroes.  Did you know the "Liberty Dollars" were inflationary.   They contained less than face value of silver and as the value of silver rose the coins became more and more debased. Greed pure and simple.

Just to make sure that isn't misunderstood, you don't mean traditional coin debasement methods where alloys are introduced like how a 1964 U.S. quarter had 90% silver content, but a 1965 quarter of the same shape, size and appearance had been debased with a copper and nickel coin with no silver content whatsoever.

Instead what the Liberty Dollar did was change the denomination stamped on the coin.  The earlier 1 ounce silver coin was stamped $10.  The later 1 ounce silver coin was stamped $20.

The price charged for an item in terms of Liberty Dollars though would fluctuate depending on the exchange rate for silver.

So a 2005 (1 ounce silver) $10 Liberty Dollar pictured above would (presumably) buy the same amount of goods and services that the 2006 (1 ounce silver) $20 Liberty Dollar would.

Even more importantly, no free market money can have a face value that is equal to or less than its underlying commodity's "spot price". This was true of the Liberty Dollar, it is currently true of Shire Silver, and it is also true of bitcoin. (The underlying commodity for bitcoin is the electricity and processing power required to mine it.)

Money is a product, and as such it won't be produced unless it makes a profit for the producer. In a free market, that profit is visible and in the form of a margin on top of the cost of production. Governments profit by using money to control. I'd much rather have my money generated by a simple motive of economic profit as opposed to power profit.