Liberty Dollars ban goes into effect at eBay

[Third Way]

as the value of silver rose the coins became more and more debased.
[/quote]

This goes against the will of the based gods! Heresy!

[odolvlobo]

Not only did they ban liberty dollars, but they also banned the silver certificates. I don't see how those could be considered counterfeit coins because they aren't even coins.

BTW, I have one original 1998 $1 certificate left -- BTC2, free shipping.

[odolvlobo]

So the takeaway is that anyone producing physical bitcoins should be very careful to ensure there is no likeness (intentional or otherwise) with US currency.   The use of $, "dollars",  "US", "In God we trust", and other currency emblems and icons should be avoided.  Things like "lady liberty", the "bald eagle", "stars & stripes", depictions of US landmarks (capital building, lincoln memorial) or persons used in current or out of circulation US currency are likely a foolish risk.

Making a bitcoin which looks like this for example would probably not be a good idea.  Attempting to pass it off as US currency to unsuspecting customers would be an even worse idea.  Nothaus did both.

He was also convicted of violating 18 USC § 486 - Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal:

Whoever ... makes ... any coins of gold or silver or other metal, ... intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

This could definitely be applied to Casascius coins. The prosecutor just has to convince the jury that they are intended to be used as currency.

[TECSHARE]

Want some NORFED Liberty Dollars of your own?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=58518.0

[goodbc]

He was also convicted of violating 18 USC § 486 - Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal:

Whoever ... makes ... any coins of gold or silver or other metal, ... intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

This could definitely be applied to Casascius coins. The prosecutor just has to convince the jury that they are intended to be used as currency.

I am somehow confused here. WTF does "intended for use as current money" mean? If me and my neighbor decide tomorrow to use between us round pieces of metal as money, are we facing jail? 

[paraipan]

Nothing is real. Everything is far away. Everything is a copy of a copy of a copy

-Fight Club

[Dusty]

For some reason a mod moved this thread off topic, but the same news commented by Jon Matonis, even not mentioning directly Bitcoin goes straight to Press. Go figure

2012-12-15 Forbes.com - U.S. Secret Service Bans Certain Gold and Silver Coins

[Rudd-O]

WTF does "intended for use as current money" mean?

It means if you don't use their funny green papers, they will find a way to put you in a cage.

[Third Way]

Not only did they ban liberty dollars, but they also banned the silver certificates. I don't see how those could be considered counterfeit coins because they aren't even coins.

BTW, I have one original 1998 $1 certificate left -- BTC2, free shipping.

You mean those dollars with the blue seal instead of green?

[TECSHARE]

Not only did they ban liberty dollars, but they also banned the silver certificates. I don't see how those could be considered counterfeit coins because they aren't even coins.

BTW, I have one original 1998 $1 certificate left -- BTC2, free shipping.

You mean those dollars with the blue seal instead of green?

He means a paper Liberty Dollar aka NORFED warehouse receipt formerly redeemable for silver until the federal government confiscated it. You are thinking of a silver certificate issued by the US Treasury.

[Third Way]

Oh my bad.


I do remember reading an article about the feds raiding these people on Rense.com.

[TECSHARE]

NORFED/Liberty Dollar has been in operation since 1998, why all of a sudden did the federal government decide this form of silver bullion is illegal? The clear signs of political motive are painted very clearly on the pages of this case from the very beginning. Just examine the rhetoric the prosecutor used invoking accusations of "terrorism". This is all about keeping the people of the United States from being able to protect themselves from being robbed blind by the failing federal reserve system.

[caveden]

The underlying commodity for bitcoin is the electricity and processing power required to mine it.

This is incorrect. There's no "underlying commodity for bitcoin", Bitcoin itself is the commodity.
Saying electricity and processing power are underlying commodities for Bitcoin is like saying mines and "excavation power" are underlying commodities for gold (or any other metal).

This, btw, is a frequent mistake concerning Bitcoin: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#The_value_of_bitcoins_are_based_on_how_much_electricity_and_computing_power_it_takes_to_mine_them

[ShireSilver]

The underlying commodity for bitcoin is the electricity and processing power required to mine it.

This is incorrect. There's no "underlying commodity for bitcoin", Bitcoin itself is the commodity.
Saying electricity and processing power are underlying commodities for Bitcoin is like saying mines and "excavation power" are underlying commodities for gold (or any other metal).

This, btw, is a frequent mistake concerning Bitcoin: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#The_value_of_bitcoins_are_based_on_how_much_electricity_and_computing_power_it_takes_to_mine_them

Yeah, you're technically correct, but the point I was trying to make is that a product won't get produced if it costs more to produce than you can get for it. This holds true for products that happen to be money as well as any other product. If the price of electricity rose so high that it cost more to create a bitcoin than it can be traded for, then miners will stop producing them. Of course the system was designed so that when some miners stop mining it will get easier, thus reducing the cost, so an equilibrium will be reached, etc etc.

The pertinent case being that since the Liberty Dollar was trying to be an actual free market money, it had to be priced above the spot price of the metal. Bernard also recognized that the volatility of prices was a factor that would confuse people and add to the difficulty of using it, so he figured out a way that reduced the MSRP volatility as well as built in a means of profiting by using it - thus making growth in usage better.

IMHO many supposed Austrians/gold-bugs seem to have a blind spot when it comes to spot prices. They just can't seem to recognize that a monetized commodity should have a different price than the generic version of that commodity. Just putting the commodity into a more convenient form does add some value.

[Third Way]

NORFED/Liberty Dollar has been in operation since 1998, why all of a sudden did the federal government decide this form of silver bullion is illegal? The clear signs of political motive are painted very clearly on the pages of this case from the very beginning. Just examine the rhetoric the prosecutor used invoking accusations of "terrorism". This is all about keeping the people of the United States from being able to protect themselves from being robbed blind by the failing federal reserve system.

Hey uhm, wouldn't it be best for the people that have come up with their own coins/money, to just hide it and wait for collapse or an acceptance of competing currencies to come out with it?

Why risk federal "pound-me-in-the-ass" prison?

[ShireSilver]

Hey uhm, wouldn't it be best for the people that have come up with their own coins/money, to just hide it and wait for collapse or an acceptance of competing currencies to come out with it?

Why risk federal "pound-me-in-the-ass" prison?

Because a lot of the value in an alternative currency is the network of people using it, so building it up *before* a collapse means its more likely to succeed after the crash.

Of course some of us don't believe there will actually be a crash, just a sort of continuing malaise that progressively gets worse until the need for a replacement currency is unavoidable. The politicians will be ready to foist off another fiat POS currency that will "save the economy", and we'll get screwed in the never ending cycle of bankster control. Some of us want to end the cycle, so we want to build up the alternatives before a replacement is critically needed, so we can step in with a credible and tested non-POS solution.

[TECSHARE]

NORFED/Liberty Dollar has been in operation since 1998, why all of a sudden did the federal government decide this form of silver bullion is illegal? The clear signs of political motive are painted very clearly on the pages of this case from the very beginning. Just examine the rhetoric the prosecutor used invoking accusations of "terrorism". This is all about keeping the people of the United States from being able to protect themselves from being robbed blind by the failing federal reserve system.

Hey uhm, wouldn't it be best for the people that have come up with their own coins/money, to just hide it and wait for collapse or an acceptance of competing currencies to come out with it?

Why risk federal "pound-me-in-the-ass" prison?

Also using alternative currencies is not a crime despite the characterization as such by the federal government.

[odolvlobo]

Not only did they ban liberty dollars, but they also banned the silver certificates. I don't see how those could be considered counterfeit coins because they aren't even coins.

BTW, I have one original 1998 $1 certificate left -- BTC2, free shipping.

You mean those dollars with the blue seal instead of green?

I mean these.

[TECSHARE]

Not only did they ban liberty dollars, but they also banned the silver certificates. I don't see how those could be considered counterfeit coins because they aren't even coins.

BTW, I have one original 1998 $1 certificate left -- BTC2, free shipping.

You mean those dollars with the blue seal instead of green?

I mean these.

I'll buy it for 1 btc. I could also offer various copper 1oz norfeds.


BTW, little known fact: Liberty Reserve was formed because of inspiration created by Liberty Dollar to create a more equitable trade system, in this case digitally. The two companies had close relations for a while.

[MPOE-PR]

He was also convicted of violating 18 USC § 486 - Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal:

Whoever ... makes ... any coins of gold or silver or other metal, ... intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

This could definitely be applied to Casascius coins. The prosecutor just has to convince the jury that they are intended to be used as currency.

I am somehow confused here. WTF does "intended for use as current money" mean? If me and my neighbor decide tomorrow to use between us round pieces of metal as money, are we facing jail?  

As long as you live in Soviet America the answer to this and any other question regarding you going to jail is yes. Yes, you can go to jail at any time for any reason. Because you are not free people over there, you're already in jail. Simply moving cell blocks is a purely administrative matter, and it is for this reason right that it should be handled by the administration.

The politicians will be ready to foist off another fiat POS currency that will "save the economy", and we'll get screwed in the never ending cycle of bankster control.

The story of never ending "ok guise this time fo real" overlapping but worthless currencies in Latin America and other backwards places would pretty much support this theory. After the collapse of the current dollar there will be the "Unity", then the Chicago Dollar, Californian Cali and Boston SHRIMP, then some scheme for a new "Federal", then bla bla bla. All of them losing 10-90% each year.