One single guy shorting with $5 million on Bitfinex going to get squeezed

[abs350]

Yep. Bitfinex are fucking crooks and most of the volume is basically 'friends of the exchange' (the exchange operators themselves). The illusion of a big fat liquid exchange lures traders into a false sense of security, believing it is actually safe to use Stop Orders, in that the liquidity is too deep for insiders to go Stop Run Farming...WRONG!

Yeah this basically the same with most of the exchanges. Most of the "liquidity" is actually provided by the exchange themselves. Even a reputable exchange like Kraken, most of the order book is the owners of Kraken. Why do you think they needed $10m (or whatever the amount was) in VC funding?

With bitfinex i suspect they are actively trading themselves against the users. They are not very good at that but then again the liquidity is so bad and fees high that on balance they are probably making some good cash.

However its not just finex I suspect all the btc exchanges are doing the same things.

For what its worth bitfinex are i believe Italian guys, even if they are in hong kong i'd still trust them more than any of the China exchanges. Take the most dodgy investment (bitcoin), one of the most suspicious industries  (forex trading) and put it in the world's most dodgy country (china)..

 Lets be honest Im not racist but its well known that chinese are known for their scams, ponzi schemes, shadow banking, copying western products, etc. . The history of china is full of civil wars and scams its one of the most unruly countries in the world (after maybe Russia). Every Chinese dynasty seems to only last about 50 years before there is a civil war and a new emperor arrives. Result is all chinese spend there time fighting the whole time. They are very unruly people.

So yeah I wouldnt go near these chinese exchanges probably even bitfinex is more reliable than either okcoin or huobi.

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[MatTheCat]

Yep. Bitfinex are fucking crooks and most of the volume is basically 'friends of the exchange' (the exchange operators themselves). The illusion of a big fat liquid exchange lures traders into a false sense of security, believing it is actually safe to use Stop Orders, in that the liquidity is too deep for insiders to go Stop Run Farming...WRONG!

Yeah this basically the same with most of the exchanges. Most of the "liquidity" is actually provided by the exchange themselves. Even a reputable exchange like Kraken, most of the order book is the owners of Kraken. Why do you think they needed $10m (or whatever the amount was) in VC funding?

With bitfinex i suspect they are actively trading themselves against the users. They are not very good at that but then again the liquidity is so bad and fees high that on balance they are probably making some good cash.

However its not just finex I suspect all the btc exchanges are doing the same things.

For what its worth bitfinex are i believe Italian guys, even if they are in hong kong i'd still trust them more than any of the China exchanges. Take the most dodgy investment (bitcoin), one of the most suspicious industries  (forex trading) and put it in the world's most dodgy country (china)..

 Lets be honest Im not racist but its well known that chinese are known for their scams, ponzi schemes, shadow banking, copying western products, etc. . The history of china is full of civil wars and scams its one of the most unruly countries in the world (after maybe Russia). Every Chinese dynasty seems to only last about 50 years before there is a civil war and a new emperor arrives. Result is all chinese spend there time fighting the whole time. They are very unruly people.

So yeah I wouldnt go near these chinese exchanges probably even bitfinex is more reliable than either okcoin or huobi.

Bitfinex are run by French guys....and yeah.....I have had some rather fishy experiences on Finex to say the least......setting 'obvious' Stop Losses based on market structure, then watching Finex do a FU move, trigger my Stop Order, but execute my Stop some $10-$15 on the wrong side of the market, leaving me heavily out of pocket....all these little bursts of inexplicably enthuisiastic buying/selling pressure on Finex, is basically traders getting ripped off by the exchange.

I think you are a little unfair on Chinese culture in a broader historical sense. Chinese Empire was a technologically advanced civilisation, which remained essentially unchanged right back into ancient times...until the British Empire rocked up wanting to open up Chinese markets to British Commerce....the Emperor said No, and then we had the Opium wars which the British won, followed by the disintegration of the society and culture that had stood for thousands of years.

I wouldn't say that the Chinese were at all an 'unruly' bunch, but yeah...modern day China is government sanctioned hotbed of scams and fakery. If they can make fake Apple Ipads, fake cars, fake food (yep..plastic rice), they can certainly do fake Bitcoin Volume.

[r0ach]

Nope. Huobi lead the correction, once again, as fucking usual. The fact that Huobi normally trades at a premium to the USD exchanges is also not unusual, and is not a sign of manipulators on USD exchanges trying to drag Bitcoin down.

Huobi did not lead the correction, this is bullshit.  I sat there and watched it the entire time.  Huobi stayed at $430 and didn't budge an inch while Finex was all the way down to $423 or so, then finally caved in later.  China pumpers were trying to go up still while Finex shorters trying to manipulate down to not get their shorts massacred.  That's why the prices are all screwed up on every exchange today with even BTC-E leading.

[Sitarow]

And it's the Chinese exchanges doing all the manipulating, specifically OkCoin and Huobi.  All the other exchanges are just following them doing some arbitrage.

China manipulated up and Bitfinex manipulated down.  Then even after Finex dropped, China refused to budge for a long time.  So right now we're in a stalemate between China pumpers and Bitfinex shorter manipulators.

Have you not considered that the reason why China is higher is because they are moving "fiat" by buying btc ltc and moving it to other exchanges to trade for usd?

Hence why the discrepancy?

[MatTheCat]

Nope. Huobi lead the correction, once again, as fucking usual. The fact that Huobi normally trades at a premium to the USD exchanges is also not unusual, and is not a sign of manipulators on USD exchanges trying to drag Bitcoin down.

Huobi did not lead the correction, this is bullshit.  I sat there and watched it the entire time.  Huobi stayed at $430 and didn't budge an inch while Finex was all the way down to $423 or so, then finally caved in later.  China pumpers were trying to go up still while Finex shorters trying to manipulate down to not get their shorts massacred.  That's why the prices are all screwed up on every exchange today with even BTC-E leading.

LOL at n00b who sits and looks at price.

It is not price that you need to look at, but movement of the market. Big selling pressure started 1 min earlier on Huobi, than USD markets.....the evidence is there for all to see.

[r0ach]

LOL at n00b who sits and looks at price.

It is not price that you need to look at, but movement of the market.

Are you blind?  Look at Bitfinex, it's begun to be significantly lower than even BTC-E all day.  This is called abnormal and it's pretty easy to see why it's occurring.  Stamp and BTC-E have the same price while this fucktard on Finex tries to manipulate down to not get squeezed.  The only question is, how much money does he have...

[MatTheCat]

LOL at n00b who sits and looks at price.

It is not price that you need to look at, but movement of the market.

Are you blind?  Look at Bitfinex, it's begun to be significantly lower than even BTC-E all day.  This is called abnormal and it's pretty easy to see why it's occurring.  Stamp and BTC-E have the same price while this fucktard on Finex tries to manipulate down to not get squeezed.  The only question is, how much money does he have...

Man o man.

If you can't see that downside !!VOLUME!! kicked off first on Huobi, then I aint gonna waste no time arguing about it with you.

But if someone is short around 12K BTC on Finex? It certainly isn't showing up on BFXdata.com

Active BTC swaps have decreased from 19K BTC to around 15K BTC in the past 3-4 days....so where does this massive 12K BTC short fit into the equation here?

[kwukduck]

Stop lying roach. This scam is going to end soon.

[RyNinDaCleM]

Wow! The unsubstantiated crap in this thread. Roach, light's on, time to scurry away. That entire $11.84 drop that has your panties in a bunch was a whopping 5500 BTC, and that wasn't only sell volume. 9/10, if someone is on BFX shorting $5M, they know what they're doing.


Show some sources or STFU

[Tzupy]

What's the big deal here? Shorts went up about 6k on the 26th, then about 4k got closed next days, and I had my tiny contribution to this normal market movement.
I find more suspicious how OKCoin dropped so much on relatively little volume. And I might short again soon, hoping to close around 380$.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Not really clear what your talking about.  $5 million usd would be 12,000 bitcoins.  We havent seen that volume today on bitfinex.

You do realize bitfinex is basically a bucketshop right? I wouldnt be surprised if most of the trading there was just the actual owners of bitfinex. Also i dont think any hedge funds are interested in bitcoin.

(edit: there's a reason why they decided to operate in hong kong - outside of usa and eu - because they have no regulations about that kind of thing. if they were in usa for example they would be closed immediately by the feds. caveat emptor).

By bucket shop, I take it you mean that no actual bitcoin trading takes place, that it's a place to speculate on the price of coins without any actually changing hands?  That's interesting, is there any evidence of that?  How can that be possible with bitcoin, where transactions are very easily traced?

Also I didn't know hedge funds had gotten into the bitcoin business either. 

[criptix]

Not really clear what your talking about.  $5 million usd would be 12,000 bitcoins.  We havent seen that volume today on bitfinex.

You do realize bitfinex is basically a bucketshop right? I wouldnt be surprised if most of the trading there was just the actual owners of bitfinex. Also i dont think any hedge funds are interested in bitcoin.

(edit: there's a reason why they decided to operate in hong kong - outside of usa and eu - because they have no regulations about that kind of thing. if they were in usa for example they would be closed immediately by the feds. caveat emptor).

By bucket shop, I take it you mean that no actual bitcoin trading takes place, that it's a place to speculate on the price of coins without any actually changing hands?  That's interesting, is there any evidence of that?  How can that be possible with bitcoin, where transactions are very easily traced?

Also I didn't know hedge funds had gotten into the bitcoin business either. 

exchanges (atleast no one i know of) dont operate with/on the bitcoin blockchain.
they use their own private database ... so a lot of greyzones without regulation.

[MatTheCat]

exchanges (atleast no one i know of) dont operate with/on the bitcoin blockchain.
they use their own private database ... so a lot of greyzones without regulation.

Yep...it's all....

Stampcoin, Huobicoin, OKCoincoin, Bitfinexcoin, Goxcoin until BTC is withdrawn from the exchange.

Clearly, the very same temptation to operate Fractional Reserve Bitcoin operations will exist here, as it did for the allegorical Goldsmiths of the middle ages, who issued promisory notes, in lieu of payment in physical metal, which for the most part, were never cashed in en masse.

Karpeles clearly didn't handle his dope very well, as his resident Markus and Willy bots, seemed to be in perpetual bull mode, which may have helped drive Bitcoin to stratosphere, but left the Emperor Wearing No Clothes, and a lot of people ended up being blatantly burned.

But the likes of Bitfinex, OKCoin, Huobi, play smarter ramping BTC both up and down, painting the tape as a rule, and keeping their balance sheets more or less within reach of the actual Bitcoins they have deposited with them. People are still getting burned here, but they are being burned by the movement of the market itself, which is moved largely by insiders with access to order books and front running en exchange privileges, other than sitting with 100 BTC in their Gox account, only to wake up one day and be told their BTC is gone.

[oblomov]

Not really clear what your talking about.  $5 million usd would be 12,000 bitcoins.  We havent seen that volume today on bitfinex.

You do realize bitfinex is basically a bucketshop right? I wouldnt be surprised if most of the trading there was just the actual owners of bitfinex. Also i dont think any hedge funds are interested in bitcoin.

(edit: there's a reason why they decided to operate in hong kong - outside of usa and eu - because they have no regulations about that kind of thing. if they were in usa for example they would be closed immediately by the feds. caveat emptor).

Yes, they actually are interested in Bitcoin.  There's freaking hedge fund guys that go on the tiny altcoin exchange Poloniex and short with $100,000-$200,000 just to fuck with people in illiquid markets for free money as they cause terror.

Believe me no reputable hedge fund would risk getting involved in bitcoin unless they were crazy. Its either a scammer from china or a crazy gambler.

There are hedge funds, and reputable money managers more broadly, who are trading BTC on both the long and short side.

However, it isn't a large position at any fund I'm aware of.

$5MM is not a large position at many firms.

[tokeweed]

Nope. Huobi lead the correction, once again, as fucking usual. The fact that Huobi normally trades at a premium to the USD exchanges is also not unusual, and is not a sign of manipulators on USD exchanges trying to drag Bitcoin down.

Huobi did not lead the correction, this is bullshit.  I sat there and watched it the entire time.  Huobi stayed at $430 and didn't budge an inch while Finex was all the way down to $423 or so, then finally caved in later.  China pumpers were trying to go up still while Finex shorters trying to manipulate down to not get their shorts massacred.  That's why the prices are all screwed up on every exchange today with even BTC-E leading.

Watch BTC/CNY across all the big exchanges.  That's where the volume is.  That's where the driver/s is/are.  And probably there's a couple of clever, conniving individuals shorting the BTC/USD market while dumping/taking profit at the BTC/CNY market.  That could be "Duk", your Vietnamese over leveraged moron trying to lose his shirt again.

Neat huh?

[r0ach]

That entire $11.84 drop that has your panties in a bunch was a whopping 5500 BTC, and that wasn't only sell volume. 9/10, if someone is on BFX shorting $5M, they know what they're doing.

This is what happened and why Finex was considerably lower than BTC-E and why Finex is still lower than all other exchanges.  Yea, some of that volume is buys, but not much.  The buy volume is Okcoin and Huobi, and everyone else just follows.  Finex will continue to be abnormally lower until this guy stops manipulating.

[abs350]

By bucket shop, I take it you mean that no actual bitcoin trading takes place, that it's a place to speculate on the price of coins without any actually changing hands?  That's interesting, is there any evidence of that?  How can that be possible with bitcoin, where transactions are very easily traced?

Also I didn't know hedge funds had gotten into the bitcoin business either. 

Please look up bucket shop. It means when you are trading you are trading with the exchange owner not with other traders. (like in a betting shop)

Stampcoin, Huobicoin, OKCoincoin, Bitfinexcoin, Goxcoin until BTC is withdrawn from the exchange.

Clearly, the very same temptation to operate Fractional Reserve Bitcoin operations will exist here, as it did for the allegorical Goldsmiths of the middle ages, who issued promisory notes, in lieu of payment in physical metal, which for the most part, were never cashed in en masse.

Karpeles clearly didn't handle his dope very well, as his resident Markus and Willy bots, seemed to be in perpetual bull mode, which may have helped drive Bitcoin to stratosphere, but left the Emperor Wearing No Clothes, and a lot of people ended up being blatantly burned.

But the likes of Bitfinex, OKCoin, Huobi, play smarter ramping BTC both up and down, painting the tape as a rule, and keeping their balance sheets more or less within reach of the actual Bitcoins they have deposited with them. People are still getting burned here, but they are being burned by the movement of the market itself, which is moved largely by insiders with access to order books and front running en exchange privileges, other than sitting with 100 BTC in their Gox account, only to wake up one day and be told their BTC is gone.

agree 100% MatTheCat

[tokeweed]

That entire $11.84 drop that has your panties in a bunch was a whopping 5500 BTC, and that wasn't only sell volume. 9/10, if someone is on BFX shorting $5M, they know what they're doing.

This is what happened and why Finex was considerably lower than BTC-E and why Finex is still lower than all other exchanges.  Yea, some of that volume is buys, but not much.  The buy volume is Okcoin and Huobi, and everyone else just follows.  Finex will continue to be abnormally lower until this guy stops manipulating.

And?  You going long right?  Buy.

[MatTheCat]

That entire $11.84 drop that has your panties in a bunch was a whopping 5500 BTC, and that wasn't only sell volume. 9/10, if someone is on BFX shorting $5M, they know what they're doing.

This is what happened and why Finex was considerably lower than BTC-E and why Finex is still lower than all other exchanges.  Yea, some of that volume is buys, but not much.  The buy volume is Okcoin and Huobi, and everyone else just follows.  Finex will continue to be abnormally lower until this guy stops manipulating.

If there really was a $5 Million dollar shorter on Finex trying to manipulate BTC, then he needs to do his fucking homework first and learn that BTC is governed by the CNY markets, not Finex, and not Stamp. Also, where has this 12K BTC gone? It is nowhere to be seen on BFXdata.com. It is nowhere to be seen in the Bitfinex trading charts. Yes, around 40K BTC has been traded on Finex over the past 48 hours in total, but you are talking about 12K, one guy, which means 24K one guy, by the time he has left his trade! Your theory doesn't have a leg to stand on, here however, is one that does.

BTC is controlled by the Chinese exchanges. Big operators tied in with CNY exchanges main interest is getting CNY out of China, and into USD. The greater the profit they can make doing this, the better it is for them. The final part of Capital Flight road, is of course BTC to USD, on Western exchanges. However, if they cash out on say Stamp, Finex, Kraken, and wherever else simultaneously, then they crash BTC, and that isn't good for profits, when they still have lots of BTC that they want to cash out into USD. So, they just dump on one exchange and one exchange alone. Leaving the rest standing relatively tall, and then ramping again on CNY (painting the tape every step of the way of course), thus brining market back up for nextr round of dumping!

Of course, most likely both these theories are way wide of the mark.

What is more likely, is that the crooked fucks nice chaps at Bitfinex, were simply doing a bit of Stop Loss Farming, emptying their hapless customers BTC and USD into thier own koffers. And actually, across all exchanges, BTC charts at the moment look like nothing more than one great big n00b Stop Loss farming excercise.

[killerjoegreece]

Not really clear what your talking about.  $5 million usd would be 12,000 bitcoins.  We havent seen that volume today on bitfinex.

You do realize bitfinex is basically a bucketshop right? I wouldnt be surprised if most of the trading there was just the actual owners of bitfinex. Also i dont think any hedge funds are interested in bitcoin.

(edit: there's a reason why they decided to operate in hong kong - outside of usa and eu - because they have no regulations about that kind of thing. if they were in usa for example they would be closed immediately by the feds. caveat emptor).

Yes, they actually are interested in Bitcoin.  There's freaking hedge fund guys that go on the tiny altcoin exchange Poloniex and short with $100,000-$200,000 just to fuck with people in illiquid markets for free money as they cause terror.

wow really ¿ thats very interesting?