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Author Topic: Before a disgruntled customer says anything...Check Now!  (Read 4239 times)
johnniewalker
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December 20, 2012, 10:56:52 PM
 #1

A while back I sent a customer a bunch of my hand-poured ingots. They were literally the first ones I ever made. He told me that he was going to have them assayed (assessed for silver content). I was fine with that because I had nothing to hide. The bars I sold him were [what I thought to be] of .99 purity. However, since he was having them professionally assayed, I sent along a silver coin with him that would make up the difference if each of my bars were only 92.5% (impossible I figured because I was only melting 925 scrap, and I added plenty of silver shot to the mix). Just now he says he has had them assayed, and that some are even below .925. Interesting, though that he can not provide any documentation of having this assay done. He lives locally so he said "you can come some place with me and I'll show you". Sure, I
d love to go to your buddy's pawn shop.
The bottom line here though is that even with the purity being what he claims it to be, he has ended up with more silver than if all of the bars were .99-because remember I sent that coin (a US Barber Half). What I think he is upset about is realizing that there's not as big a market for hand-poured ingots and that he wasn't able to flip the super-deal he got. Because now he wants to "return" the bars for something "professionaly marked" or for US Coins. I am not the customer service department at Macey's-I don't do returns.
Since he got what he paid for (PLUS some) in terms of silver, I told him to leave me alone otherwise it is harassment, and that if he shows up on my property I will call the police. I won't mention his username because hopefully I won't have to.
But this has led me to decide one more thing: so people can't claim they did an assay (which costs about $60-interesting when you're buying less than 4 ounces of silver) and my purity was off, I am going to video tape each ingot I make, from showing you the 925 hallmark to stamping it.
Also, just because I'm curious, this all seems like BS to you guys too, right? I'm not going crazy?

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December 20, 2012, 11:15:14 PM
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Short of an XRF analysis (which provides a print out), there is no definitive way to determine purity.  I also doubt that most pawn shops carry this type of equipment due to its high costs.  It definitely sounds like a case of buyers remorse and is also further compounded by the recent drop in silver price.  Not going to name drop and distract from your thread, but I am a member of a Silver web forum and a few of the members there sell their own homemade ingots (.999) for a premium over spot.  Sometimes the premium is as much as $6 and oz over spot (more then ASE and Maples).  Don't let one bad seed get you down.  Crafting your own ingots is an art form, and it looks like you have been undervaluing your own efforts.  Once you start making custom molds you will be able to increase your premiums.

side note:  Do you use graphite or steel molds?  I am in the process of designing a mold in CAD/CAM and am going to be getting it milled out at a local machine shop and am trying to decide on a base metal.
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December 20, 2012, 11:36:42 PM
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Buying those ingots from someone who admitted they are just getting into this and stated that, the buyer should of understood the risk when he purchased it. 


I have a friend that owns a pawnshop and it is very unlikely they have the type of equipment described. 



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December 21, 2012, 12:15:46 AM
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I've bought coins through johnniewalker and he's been exceptional to deal with. I've also bought sterling hand-poured ingots from ebay. I think they are slightly harder to resell, but I think that's more on the lack of a typical branding stamp. I'm pretty sure most of them are legitimate from what I've seen, though no doubt there can be fakes.

I think some videos of the melting/casting process would be awesome, even for education's sake.

If you want silver that will trade hands in a heartbeat, get Silver Eagles. But if you want a much lower premium on spot, old coins or hand-poured bullion is a great option.

Johnniewalker: I know nothing of the process for melting down and casting the silver, but do impurities come to the surface that you take off? Or do you just increase the concentration with the pure shot?

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December 21, 2012, 12:46:08 AM
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Would also be interested in hearing more about melting/casting/purifying, as I've been gathering/collecting scrap .925 for a while now (have about maybe a pound?) and was going to look at getting a mold made. Still working on my casting mark, though.

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December 21, 2012, 01:14:23 AM
 #6

I am the customer stated. The assay was done using an XRF gun(call San Diego Jewelry buyers corner of 6th and E and ask them if they have one if its hard to believe, I was there last night and they will remember me most likely).

Would suggest anyone else who has purchased silver from johnniewalker get it assayed. Will respond in more detail if needed later but for now.

- His thread stated "Up for sale are four .99 Silver ingots that I smelted......" weighing .87, .97, 1 and 1.1oz. Only after some questions did it turn out they weren't troy ounces but standard ounces (red flag I should have listened to). What person who spends the time to learn how to smelt silver doesnt know SPOT is ozt?
- I received 4 ingots ranging from .925 to .88 pure. Weight was as described in standard ounces
- The barber was included in case he made a "slight mistake". I wouldnt call bars that range from sterling to worse than coin silver a slight mistake.
- Now I have bars which are mismarked for purity and weight in oz's (vs ozt) as well as very widely swinging silver content.

Either he has no idea what he is doing and lost silver during smelting or he is a scammer.

I think I was being very reasonable. I told him repeatedly we could work this out and it didnt need to go public.

- First he said it was impossible
- then he offered me a pre64 quarter to make up for it,
- then told me to just go sell it to a pawn shop (shop that assayed it said they wouldnt take it at any price, they pay 80% spot normally),
- then he begged me not to go public,
- then plead poverty
- then said if I send him it all back he will melt it all down into a 925 ingot (why would I do that when he has proven he couldnt smelt what he promised previously)
- then said he just got sold fake cubans and to "have mercy"
- then he started getting angry and started spouting nonsense about if I come to his house he will call the police (I can't make any sense of this because nothing about it was mentioned).
- then he says to never message him again or "it is harassment" and he will be happy to share our old messages with the mods.

Keep in mind I messaged him three times in all this; First to tell him the assay results, second in response trying to secure a resolution and third declining his offer to melt me a 925 bar(a one line response). Then he exploded about harassment and me coming to his house(seems upset he got his hand caught in the cookie jar).

He seems like a crazy person to me at this point. Way to ruin your rep over a few bucks kid.

Again, I am happy to discuss a resolution if you are so inclined. Otherwise I will continue to defend my position.

The options I am willing to entertain are;

1. full refund (you come meet me to pick up or pay for shipping)
2. replacement of silver weight I thought I bought in a recognizable format like pre64 coins, mint bars, etc(3.5911ozt as I would keep the barber). Again, I will meet you to switch unless you want to pay shipping


Regards.

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December 21, 2012, 01:18:04 AM
 #7

Short of an XRF analysis (which provides a print out), there is no definitive way to determine purity.  I also doubt that most pawn shops carry this type of equipment due to its high costs.  It definitely sounds like a case of buyers remorse and is also further compounded by the recent drop in silver price.  Not going to name drop and distract from your thread, but I am a member of a Silver web forum and a few of the members there sell their own homemade ingots (.999) for a premium over spot.  Sometimes the premium is as much as $6 and oz over spot (more then ASE and Maples).  Don't let one bad seed get you down.  Crafting your own ingots is an art form, and it looks like you have been undervaluing your own efforts.  Once you start making custom molds you will be able to increase your premiums.

side note:  Do you use graphite or steel molds?  I am in the process of designing a mold in CAD/CAM and am going to be getting it milled out at a local machine shop and am trying to decide on a base metal.

This was an XRF gun with a screen on top. Handheld model and no printout.

Agree handmade ingots that are well done can bring a premium if they are well done.

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December 21, 2012, 01:34:58 AM
 #8

Buying those ingots from someone who admitted they are just getting into this and stated that, the buyer should of understood the risk when he purchased it. 


I have a friend that owns a pawnshop and it is very unlikely they have the type of equipment described. 




I weighed the risk and placed trust in him as we all do in an internet sales. I don't see how you can melt .925, add silver shot to it and have it come out 88% pure but dont know about smelting. So either he wasnt being truthful or something got screwed up in the process. I have offered to meet at a shop to get it assayed. He can even choose if he thinks I am so nefarious as to rig it before hand.

The shop I went to did have the equipment and this can be verified with a quick call

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December 21, 2012, 01:36:46 AM
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I've bought coins through johnniewalker and he's been exceptional to deal with. I've also bought sterling hand-poured ingots from ebay. I think they are slightly harder to resell, but I think that's more on the lack of a typical branding stamp. I'm pretty sure most of them are legitimate from what I've seen, though no doubt there can be fakes.

I think some videos of the melting/casting process would be awesome, even for education's sake.

If you want silver that will trade hands in a heartbeat, get Silver Eagles. But if you want a much lower premium on spot, old coins or hand-poured bullion is a great option.

Johnniewalker: I know nothing of the process for melting down and casting the silver, but do impurities come to the surface that you take off? Or do you just increase the concentration with the pure shot?

To be fair, he was pretty good to deal with until the angry rants when I broached the subject of the goods he sold not being what he described.

Never said these were fakes. Just sold as .99 and marked as .99 when they aren't

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December 21, 2012, 02:23:39 AM
 #10

Thank you everyone for your support. The bottomline is this: The ingots you purchased are the first ones I ever made. I TOLD you that. I melted 925 scrap and added .99 shot-so it is really hard for me to believe a bar tested under 925. Also, I told you (have messages) that I was nervous about the bars being under .99 purity, because I was NEW to this. So, I INSISTED on throwing in a Barber Half Dollar. The Barber Half contained enough silver to compensate silver-content wise even if the bars WERE 925. I purposely went above and beyond to ensure this same thing would not happen.
You come back to me now, probably about a month later saying you want to return this item? You left good feedback for me somewhere else. YOU GOT MORE SILVER THAN YOU PAID FOR W/ME INCLUDING THE BARBER HALF-AND YOU WANT A RETURN? THE ANSWER IS NO. I will not conduct further business with you, either. By the way, who assays (an assay costs about $60) about 4oz of silver? And you have no documentation from this place?
I'm not letting one bad apple ruin the whole tree. And I appreciate the person who said this is an art form-it is. By the way, I use[d] a graphite mold but I hated it, switched to cast iron. Anyways, I will not cease melting my silver. What I will do-because I have absolutely nothing to hide (and thats what I loved about this site-everyone I've dealt with besides this guy has been a smooth, pleasant transaction) is FILM THE POURING OF EVERY SINGLE INGOT. YOU WILL SEE THE HALLMARKED SILVER DOWN TO THE INGOT BEING SANDED, TUMBLED, AND POLISHED.
To "African Hunter": Unfortunately you live locally, and quite frankly I'm afraid you'll show up at my doorstep. If you do this, I will call the police. Our business has long since been done. Please don't contact me in any way/shape/form again.

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December 21, 2012, 02:40:54 AM
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To "African Hunter": Unfortunately you live locally, and quite frankly I'm afraid you'll show up at my doorstep. If you do this, I will call the police.




I appreciate the person who said this is an art form-it is.

so are people skills.  and business sense.

looks like you were in a bad spot -- unable to refund the money so you became defensive.  my bet is that had you looked a solution existed and both problems would have been resolved.  if you have molds that say .999 but you can't deliver .999, then you have a bigger problem than a customer wanting to return an order.   with .999s selling for over spot, you had the opportunity to see if someone else would buy the .88 ingots and have you give it another try.

you probably still have that chance, if you fix the attitude.
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December 21, 2012, 03:02:11 AM
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By the way, who assays (an assay costs about $60) about 4oz of silver? And you have no documentation from this place?.


I actually had about $2500 worth of metal assayed. If you act professionally, are wearing a suit and carrying a few grand in bullion nearly any reputable shop will assay for free if they think they may be able to buy it. If you role in wearing shorts and a t shirt with 4oz's of shady silver they will either tell you to get lost or charge you. The fee is to keep schmucks out of their place of business asking to get a piece of costume jewelry tested.

YOU GOT MORE SILVER THAN YOU PAID FOR W/ME INCLUDING THE BARBER HAL.


This isn't a true statement as we made a deal at X.X btc for a certain amount of silver. Coming back now and saying, "yeah well based on spot you got the silver you paid for" is a false argument because our deal (and your ad incidentally) was for under spot; I wouldn't have bought it otherwise. If we were talking a percent or three That's one thing, but up to 12% low is quite another; especially based on your promise that only Sterling and .999 shot went into the crucible.

Your attitude is losing you more business than you could possibly imagine. You are a youngster and seem to be new to business in general so here is a free tip. The way you treat your customers when there are issues is directly related to how successful you will be. An ethical businessman would be in contact with your other buyers to alert them to the fact that some assayed samples have shown low and offering to make it right

Instead you create this thread to try and both discredit me and shame me into being quiet about it lest I get perceived as a scammer trying to extort you. Sorry but that crap doesn't fly in my world.

Even with your piss poor attitude, if you want to take a moment of self reflection to realize what's going on here would be willing to discuss a resolution. A little maturity will take you far in these situations.

Otherwise how about this, 25 btc escrowed bet on the table that the four bars will not average over .925 (overall, so if 2oz is .95 and 2oz is .85 then overall avg would be .9 and I would win) when assayed by a 3rd party. If you are so sure I am a scammer, that's easy money. You could buy that bitmit scrap you want plus a bunch of silver shot. I am sure we can find a reputable third party to pick a location locally.

Will leave it to the community/mods to determine if this deserves a scammer tag or not.

Also would be happy to post all our pm's with your consent for people to judge for themselves

Regards.

Ps- I have never insinuated, said or implied I would show up at your doorstep nor have I threatened you in any way so please stop with the inflammatory chatter. I don't even have your address anymore beyond the city you live.

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December 21, 2012, 03:31:56 AM
 #13

YOU OFFERED TO BUY THE BARBER HALF WHENEVER I MENTIONED IT. I SAID IT WAS "INSURANCE" AND INSISTED ON INCLUDING IT WITH THE SILVER. IF BEING COMPLETELY HONEST LIKE THAT LOSES ME BUSINESS, THEN THATS FINE-CAUSE ITS ONLY PEOPLE LIKE YOU I'LL LOSE BUSINESS FROM. THIS TRANSACTION WAS OVER MORE THAN A MONTH AGO. YOU'RE NOT GETTING ANYTHING FROM ME.

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December 21, 2012, 04:06:43 AM
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YOU OFFERED TO BUY THE BARBER HALF WHENEVER I MENTIONED IT. I SAID IT WAS "INSURANCE" AND INSISTED ON INCLUDING IT WITH THE SILVER. IF BEING COMPLETELY HONEST LIKE THAT LOSES ME BUSINESS, THEN THATS FINE-CAUSE ITS ONLY PEOPLE LIKE YOU I'LL LOSE BUSINESS FROM. THIS TRANSACTION WAS OVER MORE THAN A MONTH AGO. YOU'RE NOT GETTING ANYTHING FROM ME.

Your main assertions don't have merit but I am not going to post our pm's without consent. Also not trying to get anything extra from you, just what is owed.

Was hoping for a little decorum but so be it, sad to see someone who has drive and probably had potential throw it away over a few dollars...

Going to sleep on it and then decide whether to request a scammer tag for you. If anyone other than johnniewalker has thoughts on the matter would welcome your feedback, here or by pm.

Thanks.

Ps, I screen capped all relevant threads so wouldn't go back and try to clean them up

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December 21, 2012, 04:09:07 AM
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I suggest the XRF gun and the method of using it be validated using several samples of similar thickness and known purity. Of course, the person performing measurements should not be aware of the actual purity of each sample. Samples should be rotated several times in random fashion.

The outcome of such validation will make it easier for both parties to pinpoint the source of the problem and correct it.

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December 21, 2012, 04:39:30 AM
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YOU OFFERED TO BUY THE BARBER HALF WHENEVER I MENTIONED IT. I SAID IT WAS "INSURANCE" AND INSISTED ON INCLUDING IT WITH THE SILVER. IF BEING COMPLETELY HONEST LIKE THAT LOSES ME BUSINESS, THEN THATS FINE-CAUSE ITS ONLY PEOPLE LIKE YOU I'LL LOSE BUSINESS FROM. THIS TRANSACTION WAS OVER MORE THAN A MONTH AGO. YOU'RE NOT GETTING ANYTHING FROM ME.

WOW.  I'm sorry that this happened to you africanhunter, but I'm glad it did.  I now know TO NEVER buy off this guy.

How to hell can you add .99 silver to .925 to make it .99 ?  IT'S MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE!

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December 21, 2012, 04:41:49 AM
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One more thing. I saw in your other thread you have enough pre64 coins to make an equivalent trade. If you are going to melt them anyway, why not just take the already melted bars back and give me coin equivalent. You would make this go away and get bars back you could just throw in the melt.

I feel this offer is eminently reasonable personally and think any neutral party would tell you the same. I get no benefit over you, silver price doesn't matter as it is silver weight for silver weight, plus you get to salvage your rep and not have a disgruntled customer out there. Will we ever do business again? Probably not but that will be on your end not mine (I would consider it on certain items with certain circumstances).

Sleep on it and give it some thought. As I have said multiple times, this didn't and doesn't have to go this way.

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December 21, 2012, 07:58:42 AM
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YOU OFFERED TO BUY THE BARBER HALF WHENEVER I MENTIONED IT. I SAID IT WAS "INSURANCE" AND INSISTED ON INCLUDING IT WITH THE SILVER. IF BEING COMPLETELY HONEST LIKE THAT LOSES ME BUSINESS, THEN THATS FINE-CAUSE ITS ONLY PEOPLE LIKE YOU I'LL LOSE BUSINESS FROM. THIS TRANSACTION WAS OVER MORE THAN A MONTH AGO. YOU'RE NOT GETTING ANYTHING FROM ME.

WOW.  I'm sorry that this happened to you africanhunter, but I'm glad it did.  I now know TO NEVER buy off this guy.

How to hell can you add .99 silver to .925 to make it .99 ?  IT'S MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE!
Are you guys serious? The sale I made with "African Hunter" was for my INGOTS ONLY . In case this EXACT thing happened, I sent the buyer a Barber half dollar to make up for all of the silver missing in case I couldn't achieve purity. So, basically, if the ingots were .999 the buyer would have less silver than he does now, because I wouldn't have sent him the half dollar. I have messages if anyone would like. But I believe this is merely someone thinking they got a great deal that they could flip-but they couldnt.

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December 21, 2012, 10:26:43 AM
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If I were you, I would just take it back. There is no use having all this conflict with a customer, when you can probably find another one easy. Since there can't be any official disputes or chargebacks, there has to be an honor system where both buyer and seller deal respectfully, and try to take the high road if a problem comes up (not threatening them with the cops)
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December 21, 2012, 06:49:33 PM
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YOU OFFERED TO BUY THE BARBER HALF WHENEVER I MENTIONED IT. I SAID IT WAS "INSURANCE" AND INSISTED ON INCLUDING IT WITH THE SILVER. IF BEING COMPLETELY HONEST LIKE THAT LOSES ME BUSINESS, THEN THATS FINE-CAUSE ITS ONLY PEOPLE LIKE YOU I'LL LOSE BUSINESS FROM. THIS TRANSACTION WAS OVER MORE THAN A MONTH AGO. YOU'RE NOT GETTING ANYTHING FROM ME.

WOW.  I'm sorry that this happened to you africanhunter, but I'm glad it did.  I now know TO NEVER buy off this guy.

How to hell can you add .99 silver to .925 to make it .99 ?  IT'S MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE!
Are you guys serious? The sale I made with "African Hunter" was for my INGOTS ONLY . In case this EXACT thing happened, I sent the buyer a Barber half dollar to make up for all of the silver missing in case I couldn't achieve purity. So, basically, if the ingots were .999 the buyer would have less silver than he does now, because I wouldn't have sent him the half dollar. I have messages if anyone would like. But I believe this is merely someone thinking they got a great deal that they could flip-but they couldnt.

I encourage readers to look at the thread (screen capped above) and they will see this was not for "ingots only" without a promise of quality; Nor was there any mention of "hey, these may not turn out pure". It was specifically posted as .99 silver being sold below spot so now saying, "he got equivalent silver at spot" is disingenuous. Also his prices were advertised 5% under spot only if they were Troy ounces, which they weren't (making his posted prices about 5% over spot since a standard ounce is roughly .91 troy) so it was at best a mistake and at worst trying to scam someone who doesn't know better.

If you really think about it, if we made an agreement for 10 ounces of pure gold for $1(extreme case I know but illustrates a point). Then the gold turned out to be 90%, it would still be a breach of the agreement as even though I made tons on the deal, it was not what was agreed to and I did not make what I had calculated in order to agree to the deal.

Combine this with assayed purity which doesn't seem possible based on his promises (publicly and privately) of only melting sterling and .999 silver shot, his belligerent rants and unprofessionalism. The picture is pretty clear to me (and apparently many others who have voiced support).

Thinking about doing business with johnniewalkerhttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=72227?
First read this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=131841.0

Also, Join the National Rifle Association to protect 2nd Amendment Rights http://membership.nrahq.org/default.asp?campaignid=XR020022
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