DECENTRALIZED crypto currency (including Bitcoin) is a delusion (any solutions?)

[TPTB_need_war]

You really are low!

You are so sensitive like a female.

Where are the technological details?

All this drama is good for nothing.

You are measuring everyone's ego like a true B-lister instead of focusing on the technology and communicating efficiently. Elbows & acrimony instead of production.

You and monsterer derail the thread with a cat & mouse 25 questions game. All you had to do was either publish the white paper or decline to. Instead you want to fill up the thread with a very inefficient process.

[irritant]

 

[sidhujag]

Anonymint atit again haha this place hasnt changed.. Good stuff

[illodin]

So eMunie uses blocks after all, this thread would've been a whole lot shorter if that was clear from the beginning.

[monsterer]

One need only graph some complex scenarios to visualize this effect.

Any chance you can produce such an example to make this clear?

edit: I'd also like clarification on why you see the need for blocks (where a block is defined as a grouping of more than 1 transaction)?

[monsterer]

In your 10,000 example above, you'd have to process at least 10,000 challenges per voting session, and you still only get 1 vote in that session per "node".

Each voting session will generally last between 30-60 seconds depending on whats happening network wide and if there are any conflicts.

If there is one challenge per vote, you have this 10,000 ports attack mitigated to some degree; but I'm confused why you even need the trust stuff on top of this, I don't think it adds anything?

edit: but lets move this discussion to an emunie thread so as not to derail this one further

[Come-from-Beyond]

You are so sensitive like a female.

Hm, haven't you just commited a crime by posting this? I believe in the USA even a little insinuation that males and females are not equal is punished pretty hard.

[TPTB_need_war]

I want to thank ArticMine for his two posts in this thread. The first one was instrumental in focusing me on an aspect of my design that makes it clear I have a winner. The second one supported my statement to wait until all details are released on eMunie. So apparently we have an astute and mature individual ArticMine. If I am not mistaken he is affiliated with Monero. I wish I could work with those Monero devs, they are very smart. But unfortunately there are some ideological differences and if there are too many cooks in the kitchen, it becomes difficult to gain consensus on what to do. For example, my ideas about distribution might cause a lot of discord (and any way we can't delete the coins and redistribute Monero or Aeon). I think I need to prove something first and if so then other A listers will see the opportunity.

So eMunie uses blocks after all, this thread would've been a whole lot shorter if that was clear from the beginning.

Good to see that someone gets the point of why I am annoyed with Fuserleer's games. I asked him to release all the details so I wasn't playing a game of hide & seek. He then starts insinuating that I am dumb because I don't want to play the 25 questions game that monsterer wants to play.

I used to work (in the adjacent cubicle) for 150+ IQ genuises such as this guy (the guy who created what is now Corel Painter):

http://relativisticobserver.blogspot.com/2011/12/2011-year-of-steve.html

These people are very productive and don't tolerate any bullshit such as wasting time when not presenting the holistic elucidation.

Btw, both he and Tom Hedges stated they were amazed how productive I was. The first day on the job I had constructed a massive printer driver testing suite and had fixed the printer driver issues in Painter for the Windows version. But I was also younger, healthier, more energetic, more willing to work on stuff that I didn't necessarily have to believe so strongly in to be inspired. As we get older, we become much more selective about what drives our passion, because we have less energy to give (or at least that is the case for me perhaps because I am burnt out on my life's wild journey).

At that time I was working with Lee Lorenzen who had created a porting layer so that Painter was written to the Mac API (even for the GUI) and this would run on Windows. You may recall Lee Lorenzen was the creator of Ventura Publisher, one of the world's first desktop publishing software (the other major one back then was Aldus Page Maker). At around the same time, I had created WordUp desktop publishing/word processing software for the Atari ST and Google will confirm to you that it was popular and had significant global market share. It shipped on 5 floppy disks and was written primarily in 68000 assembly code and towards the later stages features were being added in C.

I was known in the Painter work for being able to fix the most entangled bugs that couldn't be solved by tracing in a debugger but required insight into very convoluted algorithms of Painter. I also amicably trained Priscill Shi (fresh college grad) and she became our most prolific bug fixer given the conceptual insights I taught her on how to think about debugging. I also on my initiative served as a liason to Tech Support dept forging friendships and communicating key points that only developers could know. I was the all around guy.

So please don't accuse me of not being capable. The issue is a matter of scale of work, marketing issues, and also factors around me personally being not so strong and not so good situation. But if there is a will and a design worth fighting for, there is way.

I had become unnecessarily dismayed recently thinking that every design I had considered was imperfect. I now realize the imperfections in my design are superior to Bitcoin in critically important ways and that for as long as the mining power stays in the hands of the payers, then we have a fighting chance to keep it decentralized.

One need only graph some complex scenarios to visualize this effect.

Any chance you can produce such an example to make this clear?

edit: I'd also like clarification on why you see the need for blocks (where a block is defined as a grouping of more than 1 transaction)?

This does need to elucidated unequivocally. I don't think it is my role to impact Iota's launch. Come-from-Beyond demonstrates a very high S/N ratio, he has brought important ideas to the community which have even aided my design, and who knows I might even want to work with him. Let him get a return on his investment. I have said enough for the time being. I can say more at a future date.

You are so sensitive like a female.

Hm, haven't you just commited a crime by posting this? I believe in the USA even a little insinuation that males and females are not equal is punished pretty hard.

Lol. Well you know if I succeed in creating any decentralized design TPTB may take revenge on me. But the point after all is what the design can accomplish for everyone else. And if I get to fuck a few more virgins before I die, then I parting with more than Obama given that Michelle is a man.

[monsterer]

This does need to elucidated unequivocally. I don't think it is my role to impact Iota's launch. Come-from-Beyond demonstrates a very high S/N ratio, he has brought important ideas to the community which have even aided my design, and who knows I might even want to work with him. Let him get a return on his investment. I have said enough for the time being. I can say more at a future date.

I don't think a general discussion about why you see blocks as essential will be seen as an attack on Iota. I'd also like to know for my own learning process what ambiguities in particular you are referring to with double spends in a generic system with multiple chains of POW.

[TPTB_need_war]

This does need to elucidated unequivocally. I don't think it is my role to impact Iota's launch. Come-from-Beyond demonstrates a very high S/N ratio, he has brought important ideas to the community which have even aided my design, and who knows I might even want to work with him. Let him get a return on his investment. I have said enough for the time being. I can say more at a future date.

I don't think a general discussion about why you see blocks as essential will be seen as an attack on Iota. I'd also like to know for my own learning process what ambiguities in particular you are referring to with double spends in a generic system with multiple chains of POW.

I want to write that white paper.

[TPTB_need_war]

Hopefully this is my last post:

TPTB, I make this suggestion as someone who respects your skill, experience and determination. You are an idealist, and I agree with your opinions on worldly affairs most of the time.

I do think your personal situation is making you appear rude and desperate to other developers now, and I doubt very much that a project you release would ever take-off now with your reputation for erratic behavior and confrontational style.

Why don't you change tack, put up a donation address, and try and gain the financial (and health) stability you need without all the stress involved with coding and launching a new alt coin project. I just don't see you as Captain Kirk leading your own coin from here, but Yoda yes, sitting in your cave helping other alt coin Jedi perfect theirs, and those other devs would no doubt compensate you. I fear you are about to go mad.

You make so many great contributions to the kind of crypto I want to support, but I think your personal problems with health & finances are stressing you out considerably, and that stress is causing behavior that's alienating the very people who need your help, and would help you in return.

You obviously have time pressures to get results due to your personal circumstances, but a guy like Fuserleer doesn't, and I think that's why you're clashing with him. He learnt his lessons in 2014 and is very patient and diligent now, and very humble since he was hacked for 600 btc too. In that regard he is similar to jl777 who now just works and rarely engages with forum threads.

You obviously see faults in Fuserleer's work, but your approach towards him is too antagonistic to develop a relationship that might benefit you both. He's a good guy I think, and would probably help you if he could, so why piss him off? I think the answer is you're stressed, and you're scared & angry, and not being your true self. All humans are prone to these emotions, no matter how intelligent they are, and you're surely a very intelligent man.

Please don't leave crypto, and consider working as a consultant to other alt coin devs who need your 'higher' self.

You are spot on. I am very stressed about my personal situation and this does drive me to be very impatient because I need to get things done. On the positive, I am fighting very intensely now on my health (ran twice again yesterday and heading out to run again after typing this).

Do you realize I have been talking on this forum for 3 years. It never ends. It is like a broken record that goes on and on. I only asked Fuserleer to provide a holistic description of his algorithm (or provide none at all and let's wait for him to). After all, we apparently find out his algorithm is a block chain design (and he probably changed the design as we were making the discussion, I figured he might do that and one reason I wanted him to put the entire design out before starting to analyze it).

I do not know Fuserleer well, and I contemplate that he is a productive Java programmer. I wasn't making any prejudgements of him. But he is always commenting about my behavior. My behavior is irrelevant. He who produces and ships the Bitcoin killer wins. Period. I wanted to talk tech shop. Period.

I can't advise others because they won't listen. The only way to lead is by doing. For example, that developer won't realize he needs to not create his own altcoin, until someone provides him another option and he can see it growing faster in the market and he wants to ride that train.

So lead or quit. Those are my options.

Oh and as for others not wanting to support anything I create, my reply to that is thanks for the challenge. That just all the more motivates me to try to create a marketing train that they have to join or be left behind. Point is that my personality is irrelevant. Who ever is able to create the mass adoption movement wins. Period.

Thanks.

[monsterer]

I want to write that white paper.

That's good, but it's a shame you can't talk about the ambiguity; I think it's possible you may have overlooked something in your analysis. There again, I may be plainly wrong, but I am happy to be proved wrong.

[Fuserleer]

So eMunie uses blocks after all, this thread would've been a whole lot shorter if that was clear from the beginning.

No, it doesn't.  I was simply highlighting the similarities to help people understand why it is a solid theory.  Unfortunately it seems, that has now been misunderstood entirely.

If I was to liken it to anything, it would be Ripple.  You could also compare Ripple's ledger to blocks in the same way that I did for eMunie's.

A ledger state and a chain of blocks are very different things, with very different mechanics.

Ultimately though, at least to the more technical among us, it should have been quite obvious that there was at least some form of object, which was dictating which data set was correct in the event of a conflict due to the fact of votes.  Otherwise, what is the purpose of the votes in the first place?

I'm going to create a new thread at some point and move this discussion there.  I just wanted to clear up this hornets nest I created a little by likening ledgers to blocks.

[TPTB_need_war]

I was simply highlighting the similarities to help people understand why it is a solid theory.

Bwahaha.

Unfortunately it seems, that has now been misunderstood entirely.

Eludication of details is not important. 

A ledger state and a chain of blocks are very different things, with very different mechanics.

Can we make up our mind what we are describing here. I was entirely accurate when I predicted you jerking me around with a moving target.

Ultimately though, at least to the more technical among us, it should have been quite obvious

There you go again blaming someone else for your lack of organization.
 
If you aren't prepared, then don't disrupt.

that there was at least some form of object, which was dictating which data set was correct in the event of a conflict due to the fact of votes.  Otherwise, what is the purpose of the votes in the first place?

You are still in design mode and don't even yet understand your own design well enough to explain it from a holistic conceptualization.

You piss your lack of preparation on others and then play political ad hominem games.

When you've matured and are ready to play with the big boys, then let me know.

Btw, your design is flawed. I am waiting for your white paper.

I'm going to create a new thread at some point and move this discussion there.  I just wanted to clear up this hornets nest I created a little by likening ledgers to blocks.

Release the comprehensive white paper and stop doing what Spoetnik says:

Your full of shit.

And voting crap ?

[...]

I think all you want here is people to give the idea to copyright.
This routine is often employed by guys here who want to make their coin but want pre-approval.
They are concerned otherwise it will get ignored / flamed.

[...]

Fuck this shit.

[Hueristic]

Too much non productive name calling and hand waving. You guys are adults and you look like school kids. Anonymint has a point but cannot civilly state it. Fuserleer is beating around the bush but was just being coy IMO (I think monsterer was just playing alone to get all the info) and this has just escalated into a mud slinging contest which is in no-ones interest.

TPTB, take a breath and stop letting this shit get to you, we see your under alot of stress but getting worked up about it is detrimental to both your body and mind which (as you have stated) is not at peak.

Fuserleer is correct in stating that you started this thread for discussion of all avenues and not just yours. So he is within the purview of that umbrella to make his case for his thoughts being analyzed as well as anyone elses. If he doesn't give you the information you require then just sit back and ignore him after stating that fact. Those that matter are capable of following this thread and those that aren't, well are not worth the effort to be perfectly frank.

I see no reason why Monsterer cannot continue coaxing Fuserleer's methodology (even if it's morphing while being discussed) because as you have stated "The goal is to solve this problem". Let those two discuss that on a sidechain until it gets to a point where you have the information you need to make a critical analysis.

Personally I would like to see CFB back in hear and hear more on the tangle debate as I have not seen his retort to the inevitability of the tangle diverging. That sounds like a game changer to me and if true will make IOTA a complete waste off effort as well as time and resources. Unless it is just a money grab which in that case it seems to be working.

AFA your (Anonymint) arguments that this is an impossible task that has no solution well I think you are jumping to a conclusion, even though I cannot follow all your arguments (I'm a dumbass) I believe there is always a solution as long as the problem can be defined. And if anyone can solve these issues you have raised I believe you have the capability to do it. I would also recommend getting all this into one whitepaper so anyone jumping in can be brought up to speed on your thoughts without you having to jump around linking your scattered posts every few posts. I think you need a technical secretary to organize all this information as it looks like that may be time consuming. Get an apprentice.

Anyway thanks for the debate so far guys, I was intrigued and enjoying it until it dissolved into a pissing contest of childish proportions.

Added:

...Btw, both he and Tom Hedges stated they were amazed how productive I was. The first day on the job I had constructed a massive printer driver testing suite and had fixed the printer driver issues in Painter for the Windows version. But I was also younger, healthier, more energetic, more willing to work on stuff that I didn't necessarily have to believe so strongly in to be inspired. As we get older, we become much more selective about what drives our passion, because we have less energy to give (or at least that is the case for me perhaps because I am burnt out on my life's wild journey)....

True that, many forums I won't lean forward to get the keyboard nor bother to goto anymore.

[TrueAnon]

Blah blah blah.

If you're making fiat or btc, who cares?  Winning's winning.

[TPTB_need_war]

If he doesn't give you the information you require then just sit back and ignore him after stating that fact.

Insinuating I am an idiot for asking. Go reread the thread again.

I said numerous times they could carry on without me, but you can read the thread and see he continued to try to stick it to me that monsterer understood and I didn't. I know monsterer was just trying to guess what the design is. That is not the same as a holistic understanding. If Fuserleer doesn't call me dumb for asking "can anyone understand what Fuserleer described?", then none of the drama occurred.

I even said numerous times that I was not demanding he provide any details before he was ready. Monsterer was asking for a summary. I was expressing that the summary was ambiguous because my intellect (and experience in designing consensus for crypto) is high enough to know that there are details that I need to know which have not been provided.

Get your facts straight.

[Hueristic]

If he doesn't give you the information you require then just sit back and ignore him after stating that fact.

Insinuating I am an idiot for asking. Go reread the thread again.

I said numerous times they could carry on without me, but you can read the thread and see he continued to try to stick it to me that monsterer understood and I didn't. I know monsterer was just trying to guess what the design is. That is not the same as a holistic understanding. If Fuserleer doesn't call me dumb for asking "can anyone understand what Fuserleer described?", then none of the drama occurred.

I even said numerous times that I was not demanding he provide any details before he was ready. Monsterer was asking for a summary. I was expressing that the summary was ambiguous because my intellect (and experience in designing consensus for crypto) is high enough to know that there are details that I need to know which have not been provided.

Get your facts straight.

Yes, but you also have missed the part where I stated those that matter have seen this as well and those that haven't don't matter.

BTW, added to above post, this thread is moving fast.

[TPTB_need_war]

No need to waste more time here. Fuserleer needs to get busy on proving me wrong. And I need to get busy also.

I was trying to light a fire under his butt so he will get more serious and move his project to market. Vaporware (mine and his) doesn't help us.

We are running out of time. Take a read of the Economic Totalitarianism tread in the Economics forum sometime.

[VultureFund]

TPTB . OMG man have you ever thought to become a screenwriter? Really, you have a natural instinct to create drama and complexity. You know, you could do everything you want, so JUST DO IT!!¿

If you're interested in cinematic projects PM me, you could be a superstar here too man!