FreiCoin (FRC) discussion (was FreiCoin (FRC) for TRC, PPC, LTC or BTC)

[bushstar]

By the way I contributed a lot of hash power early on before the difficulty quadrupled. I have 46,000 FRC and am selling them, message me for details if you want to buy any.

These are more coins than one person should be holding and I'd rather the coins be distributed for greater good and all that. I'd also like some BTC in my wallet

[jtimon]

As has been said. The initial distribution is not a tax.
How is issuing the full base through miners fairer then through non-profits?
I would say we would just overpaying for security on an early stage, but others even see giving it to miners as an unfair privilege.
The main purpose of doing it like this is not exactly avoiding the waste of resources (which does) but to distribute it relatively fast to as many people as possible in a fair fashion. While doing it in a transparent, participatory and fair way will ADD LEGITIMACY to the currency, giving it to ourselves or making an obscure process for getting those initial coins will subtract legitimacy and probably destroy the currency all together.

I don't own any freicoin yet, but I'm probably one of the persons who are more interested in this currency to succeed and make sure the coins are distributed fairly. If they're not, not only the idea I've been advocating for two years will fail, but I'll also look as a scammer. Being selfish, the profits would be a one-time thing, but reputation is durable.
I don't think Mark (or anyone that has participated) wants to drop his coding efforts to the trash neither.

Now a question...What's approximately the price?
Since there's no market it's hard to see. Someone is asking for 0.1 btc for each frc on freicoin forums, which seems crazy to me at this stage...

[bushstar]

Since there's no market it's hard to see. Someone is asking for 0.1 btc for each frc on freicoin forums, which seems crazy to me at this stage...

That is pretty crazy. I hope no one bought coins at those prices. I'm selling at 0.5BTC for 1,000FRC to those who I'm guess just want to stick them in an offline wallet just in case FRC goes somewhere.

[crazy_rabbit]

Since there's no market it's hard to see. Someone is asking for 0.1 btc for each frc on freicoin forums, which seems crazy to me at this stage...

That is pretty crazy. I hope no one bought coins at those prices. I'm selling at 0.5BTC for 1,000FRC to those who I'm guess just want to stick them in an offline wallet just in case FRC goes somewhere.

But if you just stick them in an offline wallet, don't they just disappear at a rate of 4%? The whole idea was to keep people from hoarding, right? So you can't just stick it in an offline wallet. It will just disappear. But of course, there isn't actually anything to do with FRC so what else can do you do with it? 

[jtimon]

Since there's no market it's hard to see. Someone is asking for 0.1 btc for each frc on freicoin forums, which seems crazy to me at this stage...

That is pretty crazy. I hope no one bought coins at those prices. I'm selling at 0.5BTC for 1,000FRC to those who I'm guess just want to stick them in an offline wallet just in case FRC goes somewhere.

But if you just stick them in an offline wallet, don't they just disappear at a rate of 4%? The whole idea was to keep people from hoarding, right? So you can't just stick it in an offline wallet. It will just disappear. But of course, there isn't actually anything to do with FRC so what else can do you do with it? 

Yes, any purchasing now would be mostly speculative. So if you hoard them is because you think that they will get more value than you're losing nominally (4.9% annually).
Maybe "disappear" is not the more accurate word. If you hoard 1000 frc, they will take more than 13 years to become 500 frc.

[maaku]

So after 161280 the reward drops down to demurraged coins only?

Yes, but only the foundation feels that drop directly. It's a smooth transition for the miners.

But if you just stick them in an offline wallet, don't they just disappear at a rate of 4%? The whole idea was to keep people from hoarding, right? So you can't just stick it in an offline wallet. It will just disappear. But of course, there isn't actually anything to do with FRC so what else can do you do with it?  

We have to be careful to distinguish between now, a scant few days after the currency has launched and no services are available, and years from now when the Freicoin economy is fully developed. In the long term, Freicoin may reach a steady-state value, and not move much up or down in buying power. But for now, any valuation is speculative, and for someone bullish on Freicoin this would be a good time (probably the best time) to pick up cheap coins.

In the long term cold storage of freicoins is a losing proposition, but for now it makes sense under some assumptions. Freicoin's value will be speculative until an economy develops around it.

[creativex]

In the long term cold storage of freicoins is a losing proposition, but for now it makes sense. Freicoin's value will be speculative until an economy develops around it.

...but doesn't the development of an economy built around FRC's depend on capital formation? Doesn't this system encourage those that wish to use FRC's as currency to treat them like hot potatoes and dump them for something that's not taxed? Again, it sounds like fiat currency...tell me where I'm wrong.

[jtimon]

In the long term cold storage of freicoins is a losing proposition, but for now it makes sense. Freicoin's value will be speculative until an economy develops around it.

...but doesn't the development of an economy built around FRC's depend on capital formation?

Yes. Assuming by capital you mean production goods as opposed to monetary tokens.
How that's incompatible with the currency.

Doesn't this system encourage those that wish to use FRC's as currency to treat them like hot potatoes and dump them for something that's not taxed?

To treat them as the medium of exchange only. For example, they will prefer to invest on producing goods (capital) rather than holding freicoins.
But before that, forget about taxation, this is a p2p currency, not a coercive goverment. Freicoin demurrage fees are as close to "taxes" as bitcoin transaction fees are.

Again, it sounds like fiat currency...tell me where I'm wrong.

It's hard to tell from what you've said...The most accepted definition of fiat money is "whose circulation is enforce by law". Since this is a voluntary currency it is clearly not fiat.

I assume you're equating demurrage with money printing. Apart from representing a transfer of value, money printing does little to maintain velocity during "bad times". They keep on creting bigger and bigger quantities while each time the effect on velocity is lower. They have the limit in zero artificial interest rates and despite what they say they can't destroy money back (reduce central bank's balance sheet) as fast as they've created it when velocity starts accelerating again, when all those previously idle piles of cash flow to the market again and threaten with hyperinflation.
When I say "artificial zero rates" I mean they're unnatural for everlasting money and can be only achieved by manipulating the financial market through an institution that can virtually eat infinite losses such as a central bank.

Silvio Gesell predicted the collapse of paper money without demurrage when it was just starting. Either the money managers accept the deflationary cycle or they will destroy their currency by hyperinflation:

http://www.community-exchange.org/docs/Gesell/en/neo/part3/13.htm

In certain sense he also predicted the Ron Paul/goldbug movement in this sentence in which he refers to a global fiat system without demurrage (basically what we have since Nixon):

"A reform of this kind would be short-lived and would bring the possibility of the greatest fraud ever practised upon mankind. After such an attempt at reform the people, as in the past, would believe that their salvation lay in the gold standard and would clamour for its re-introduction."

I hope this helps. While I would recommend you to read the whole book (skipping the first to parts on free/land if you want), don't hesitate to make "hard questions": we'll try to answer the best we can.

[creativex]

In the long term cold storage of freicoins is a losing proposition, but for now it makes sense. Freicoin's value will be speculative until an economy develops around it.

...but doesn't the development of an economy built around FRC's depend on capital formation?

Yes. Assuming by capital you mean production goods as opposed to monetary tokens.
How that's incompatible with the currency.

Doesn't this system encourage those that wish to use FRC's as currency to treat them like hot potatoes and dump them for something that's not taxed?

To treat them as the medium of exchange only. For example, they will prefer to invest on producing goods (capital) rather than holding freicoins.
But before that, forget about taxation, this is a p2p currency, not a coercive goverment. Freicoin demurrage fees are as close to "taxes" as bitcoin transaction fees are.

Again, it sounds like fiat currency...tell me where I'm wrong.

It's hard to tell from what you've said...The most accepted definition of fiat money is "whose circulation is enforce by law". Since this is a voluntary currency it is clearly not fiat.

I assume you're equating demurrage with money printing. Apart from representing a transfer of value, money printing does little to maintain velocity during "bad times". They keep on creting bigger and bigger quantities while each time the effect on velocity is lower. They have the limit in zero artificial interest rates and despite what they say they can't destroy money back (reduce central bank's balance sheet) as fast as they've created it when velocity starts accelerating again, when all those previously idle piles of cash flow to the market again and threaten with hyperinflation.
When I say "artificial zero rates" I mean they're unnatural for everlasting money and can be only achieved by manipulating the financial market through an institution that can virtually eat infinite losses such as a central bank.

Silvio Gesell predicted the collapse of paper money without demurrage when it was just starting. Either the money managers accept the deflationary cycle or they will destroy their currency by hyperinflation:

http://www.community-exchange.org/docs/Gesell/en/neo/part3/13.htm

In certain sense he also predicted the Ron Paul/goldbug movement in this sentence in which he refers to a global fiat system without demurrage (basically what we have since Nixon):

"A reform of this kind would be short-lived and would bring the possibility of the greatest fraud ever practised upon mankind. After such an attempt at reform the people, as in the past, would believe that their salvation lay in the gold standard and would clamour for its re-introduction."

I hope this helps. While I would recommend you to read the whole book (skipping the first to parts on free/land if you want), don't hesitate to make "hard questions": we'll try to answer the best we can.

Thanks for responding.

I'm always interested in new cryptos, this one is interesting enough to inspire conversation, but I'm not interested in being penalized for holding them.

[jtimon]

Thanks for responding.

I'm always interested in new cryptos, this one is interesting enough to inspire conversation, but I'm not interested in being penalized for holding them.

Then don't hold big quantities for long and you won't suffer any penalty. That shouldn't be an obstacle for accepting them as payment in your business (if you have one). You can sell them for bitcoins, other currency or just spend them as soon as you receive them.

[nethead]

Thanks for responding.

I'm always interested in new cryptos, this one is interesting enough to inspire conversation, but I'm not interested in being penalized for holding them.

Then don't hold big quantities for long and you won't suffer any penalty. That shouldn't be an obstacle for accepting them as payment in your business (if you have one). You can sell them for bitcoins, other currency or just spend them as soon as you receive them.

How much is "big quantities", and how long is "long"? Also we need a value (I know, too soon)
I have about 1500, should i make, lets say 10 addresses for 150frc each or "penalty" will be the same?
Thanks

[creativex]

Thanks for responding.

I'm always interested in new cryptos, this one is interesting enough to inspire conversation, but I'm not interested in being penalized for holding them.

Then don't hold big quantities for long and you won't suffer any penalty. That shouldn't be an obstacle for accepting them as payment in your business (if you have one). You can sell them for bitcoins, other currency or just spend them as soon as you receive them.

You mean if/when there's an exchange set up that accepts them and if/when there's a way to spend them and something to spend them on?

[maaku]

Rome wasn't built in a day.

[creativex]

I understand that, I'm just concerned that the way this is structured will prevent Rome from ever being built.

[FuzzyBear]

Where can I download a miner for this?

You can use any SHA 256 coin miner you use for BTC/PPC/TRC.

Just use port 8638.

There's also a p2pool instance up at http://pool.freico.in:9638

How or where do I add myself to this pool? sorry not used P2Pools b4 and wanted to give it a try

EDIT: ok sorry i got it...
hostname : pool.freico.in
port: 9638
username : My FreiCoin address
P: anything

[scrybe]

Where can I download a miner for this?

You can use any SHA 256 coin miner you use for BTC/PPC/TRC.

Just use port 8638.

There's also a p2pool instance up at http://pool.freico.in:9638

How or where do I add myself to this pool? sorry not used P2Pools b4 and wanted to give it a try

Just point your miner at it and use your deposit address for a username, and any value for password. P2Pool does a payout split directly in the block.

You can see stats by pointing your browser atthe same exact URL including port number.

[maaku]

When the price of freicoin moves, it will could be by a lot more than the few percent you will lose by holding on to them for a few years. If the price moves up the number of coins in active circulation will also increase as speculators cash out their holdings. Eventually as economic growth levels out even the most bullish speculators convert their holdings into bitcoin, fiat, or real capital, the monetary velocity stabilizes, and the price of freicoin stops increasing.

It'll be a rough-and-tumble couple of years, no doubt. But I don't see any reason that it couldn't stabilize once the real Freicoin economy is built up (and the Foundation funds will play a large part in jumpstarting that).

[scrybe]

CAUTION!!!!!

If you are mining, be absolutely sure that you are connected to multiple valid nodes.

I just got done dealing with someone who thought they had hundreds of thousands of FRC to sell, when in fact they had been in an orphan chain connected to a single invalid peer.

Don't waste your mining effort, double-check your connections.

--This Public Service Announcement has been brought to you by the word "DAMMNIT!"--

[herzmeister]

Keynes said about demurrage that it's a similar provision for economic stimulus as inflation. But inflation is easier to implement.

I read some Austrian economists think that demurrage money results in bubbles. And indeed, long-term investments are encouraged. So which would that possibly be? Land, real estate...

And indeed, Gesell recognized that problem. That's why he proposed a land reform. He wanted land to be administered as a co-operative. How can that happen with Freicoin? Also, you'd have to turn anything long-term investible into co-operatives then. So why don't we call the child by its proper name at last and do socialism?

[scrybe]

Keynes said about demurrage that it's a similar provision for economic stimulus as inflation. But inflation is easier to implement.

I read some Austrian economists think that demurrage money results in bubbles. And indeed, long-term investments are encouraged. So which would that possibly be? Land, real estate...

And indeed, Gesell recognized that problem. That's why he proposed a land reform. He wanted land to be administered as a co-operative. How can that happen with Freicoin? Also, you'd have to turn anything long-term investible into co-operatives then. So why don't we call the child by its proper name at last and do socialism?

The middle point is good, if people are used to demurrage money they should tend to look for durable investments NOT denominated in a demurrage money.

State owned means of production? What does that have to do with the price of Freicoin in China?

Please put down the radical tangent and come back to the conversation.