Technology vs. Marketing. Which is more important?

[Peachy]

So 33 (42%) of the 79 post in this thread are by you so who's derailing this thread with useless discussion?

[TPTB_need_war]

So 33 (42%) of the 79 post in this thread are by you so who's derailing this thread with useless discussion?

We were having a great discussion in this thread. And yes I was contributing/participating. And now we've added a dozen posts replying to you and your eMunie lead developer's attempt to turn the thread into a personal attack against me.

Congrats. The smart people are I am sure aware of your focus on wasteful activities.

[Fuserleer]

Every time you spam, I am going to make sure I put the name of your coin in, so the brains of readers can come to associate eMunie with strife and wasted time. Marketing anyone?

Please do, brand recognition

So 33 (42%) of the 79 post in this thread are by you so who's derailing this thread with useless discussion?

We were having a great discussion in this thread. And yes I was contributing. And now we've added a dozen posts replying to your and your eMunie lead developer's attempt to turn the thread into a personal attack against me.

Congrats. The smart people are I am sure aware of your behavior.

I'll take your avoidance of answering the simple question I asked, so as to perhaps form an elevated understanding of marketing, as evidence that you have nothing to share.

[TPTB_need_war]

Furthermore I'm not going to detail any marketing strategies I'm working here in a post to prove a point.  You'll have it all soon enough.

And then you wrote in your prior message that are asking me to detail at least one of my specific marketing ideas (when I have already done so up thread), and then you edited your post (before I could quote it because I clicked to the next page and came back) to remove that statement when you realized it doesn't reflect well on you and exemplifies the duplicity of your ethics. Haha. You and your eMunie cohort Peachy are just trolling.

You are so confident in your marketing plans, that you need to worry about whether I have any influence on the forum. 

[Fuserleer]

Furthermore I'm not going to detail any marketing strategies I'm working here in a post to prove a point.  You'll have it all soon enough.

And then you wrote in your prior message that are asking me to detail at least one of my specific marketing ideas (when I have already done so up thread), and then you edited your post (before I could quote it because I clicked to the next page and came back) to remove that statement when you realized it doesn't reflect well on you and exemplifies the duplicity of your ethics. Haha. You and your eMunie cohort Peachy are just trolling.

You are so confident in your marketing plans, that you need to worry about whether I have any influence on the forum. 

OK, the fact that you are now fabricating stories of me editing posts to "cover up" some conspiracy you've concocted is about all I'm going to tolerate.

Ignore for you, and I'm signing off.

[TPTB_need_war]

Back on topic...

Fuserleer pretty much hit the nail on the head. Dogecoin is like the anti-Anonymint. Dogecoin's success has nothing to do with the underlying technology it is based on. Dogecoin made cryptocurrency fun, funny, and relate-able.

That fun happened without any features (technology) whatsoever eh?

Micro-tipping (per my upthread post apparently a voting gift culture, not an economic meme) was not at all important to the perception of Dogecoin being fun to participate in?

To nail something you need to also understand the details that were required. We can all say Bitcoin is fun, but it depends what we mean by fun.

To be more specific, I think what you and Fuserleer mean to say is that the Doge users were enjoying the sense of community spirit from a confluence of attributes, including the ability to vote up (tip) people on social networks and the festive/carefree/creative/cute dog atmosphere surrounding the community.

Again I see a fundamental generative essence of HOPE in that, but I also commend you[Fuserleer] (it can't be ascertained if you had this idea or you were bluffing and picked up on Fuserleer's fun idea) stating that interactive, gift culture oriented, creativity-themed fun is more specific than a general notion that it taps the human need for HOPE (or belief in something better). Everyone loves to have fun. But fun means different things to different people. For me, fun can be dancing or engaging in vigorous sports. I have observed that many of the youth want to do what I tend to think of as frivolous or irrelevant fun (in other words not so fun for me in my older age, although sometimes I relate). For example, all that community sharing and creativity I tend to think of as time waster, but then when I sit down with my gf and watch her scroll her timeline on Facebook, I become also interested in all the diverse stuff going on. So I guess it is an acquired habit. The youth are on their phones 24  x 7.

Comparing the first Dogecoin conference to a Bitcoin conference... people were dressed in costumes like a comic con, there was a decentralized dance party, and people were generally there to have fun (rather than network and talk about the technology like what is done at Bitcoin conferences.) Dogecoin is all about having fun, which happens to introduce people to decentralized cryptocurrency at the same time. Tying itself to the internet sensation that is Doge catapulted the awareness, adoption, and price of Dogecoin.

I remember the Ape who showed up at my high school house party and I escorted him to the dance floor! Yeah okay I agree. Partying is fun (although I haven't been able to enjoy my life lately due to pain/fatigue of chronic illness). Yet I remember what it was like.

It was also at the right place at the right time, which is perhaps the greatest reason for its success. It was a perfect storm of multiple factors. It was released towards the peak of the popularity of the Doge meme and size of the Doge community. It was released towards the peak of Bitcoin's awareness in the media. It was released towards the peak of the number of cryptocurrency speculators entering the market. Because of that initial influx of speculators, it now has a wide reaching network effect and a large community of supporters that will (IMO) carry it into the future. It is here to stay.

I was oblivious that there was even a Doge meme circulating through society in 2013.

Which part of the confluence is repeatable and sustainable?

Was there any value in the gift culture voting of micro-tipping and the fun that created to pass those tokens around instead of just clicking "Like" when ever you feel like it with no limit on how many times you can do it?

Upthread someone was claiming there is some lasting effect or value in Doge's marketing theme. So what is that? Is it still fun to use Doge? Why?

[TPTB_need_war]

Furthermore I'm not going to detail any marketing strategies I'm working here in a post to prove a point.  You'll have it all soon enough.

And then you wrote in your prior message that are asking me to detail at least one of my specific marketing ideas (when I have already done so up thread), and then you edited your post (before I could quote it because I clicked to the next page and came back) to remove that statement when you realized it doesn't reflect well on you and exemplifies the duplicity of your ethics. Haha. You and your eMunie cohort Peachy are just trolling.

You are so confident in your marketing plans, that you need to worry about whether I have any influence on the forum.  

OK, the fact that you are now fabricating stories of me editing posts to "cover up" some conspiracy you've concocted is about all I'm going to tolerate.

Ignore for you, and I'm signing off.

You are lying. I don't forget what I read.

Can we ask Theymos to check the logs?

You wrote something like, "Just for once can you throw up a scrap and tell us your idea for marketing". You continued on and it was clear you were trying to frame it as if I never share.

[Sparky_eMunie]

Not bad for a guy who was coding with a 120 dB karaoke in his ear 24 x 7 and had dysentery weekly due to squalor.

120 dB 24/7 will not only create damage to your ears, but your brain will restructure trying to prevent the hearing loss, and becomes weaker processing other signals.

[TPTB_need_war]

Not bad for a guy who was coding with a 120 dB karaoke in his ear 24 x 7 and had dysentery weekly due to squalor.

120 dB 24/7 will not only create a damage to your hearing, but your brain will restructure trying to prevent the hearing loss, and becomes weaker processing other signals.

I didn't refer to a decibel table before making that comment (in as rush and deflecting flame wars rapid-fire), and I forget off hand which levels relate to threshold of pain (134 dB?) and other levels, so I just picked a number quickly that reflects that it was very loud.

I suppose I exaggerated (decibel scale is logarithmic as you know and so one needs to be careful as 6 dB is a significant change). Maybe 110 - 117 dB outside. Perhaps 105+ dB inside (estimating). Yeah it was bad. It wasn't every day, but sometimes it was 24 x 7 for the entire weekend and then sporadically during the week. Incredibly annoying. And yeah I noticed I am very sensitive to noise now (can't process any information at all when there is significant noise, unless I am very very deep in concentration mode).

Not only that but I saw my underwear on my neighbor (people often walked around in their briefs in our squalor locale because the hand pump water well was where people showered) and if I turned my head while eating, my spoon was gone. It was hell. But not as hell as acute peptic ulcer which is literally going to visit hell. Burning from the inside (acid leaking onto all your internal organs) is an intimate experience with the underworld. You will literally wish you could die and contemplate that in hell you can't ever die to stop the pain beyond any words can describe. I did. Look I played tackle football. I have played with broken bones. I can handle some pain. But burning from the inside is indescribable. Three days of that nonstop pain, then several  more days of feeling like I wanted to get out of my own skin (that was more horrible than the excruciating pain). Two times they gave me morphine and I floated in heaven for 3 hours, then I could hear the pain train coming from a distance. Here in the Philippines, they do not give pain meds. I had to beg the doctor for it over and over. She (resident doctor on the floor) finally relented because I am a foreigner. I tried to go as long as I could before the second morphine trip. But then I heard the lady wailing dying of breast cancer down the hall without morphine, I gained some perspective. Any one doubts my story contact Dr. Alcasid at Adventist Hospital, Davao (May 2012).

P.S. my abdomen is burning just very slightly right now (nothing painful just annoying and signals fatigue or headache coming later). Welcome to my reality 3.5 years hence   Or if you mean the karaoke & squalor, 20 years hence. And I deserve it because I made my own choices.

[TPTB_need_war]

Peachy this is for you...

Anyway, how is he the lead dev of anything? Probably the only guy in cryptocurrency more guilty of vaporware than you

I resent that demotion. 

[Peachy]

So is that the approved standard for how we should post "off topic" material by reducing it to 8pt font as you have done?

Just wanna be sure I learn the proper method from the Self-proclaimed overly-prolific Board Police.

If so, then you are a sad little man

[CoinHoarder]

I was oblivious that there was even a Doge meme circulating through society in 2013.

Perhaps that may of been what you were missing from the equation. http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/doge


We will agree to disagree that micro tipping had a great affect as to the success of Dogecoin. I maintain my opinion that it didn't have much to do with its success, although I suppose it couldn't of hurt. The dogetipbot is popular on places like Reddit.. where Dogecoin initially took off.

[TPTB_need_war]

Carrying on from the questions I presented in my reply to CoinHoarder, if we take a broad prespective, we can conclude the obvious which is the youth (all age groups in fact) are consuming more and more online media and that includes interactive scenarios:

http://kff.org/disparities-policy/press-release/daily-media-use-among-children-and-teens-up-dramatically-from-five-years-ago/

We can see that jump to using the computer more spurted at the turn of the century (as expected because that is when the internet went mainstream):

http://ns.umich.edu/Releases/2004/Nov04/teen_time_report.pdf#page=8

Much of that activity is being done not for direct economic income, rather for derivative motivations (which may be economic for participants in some holistic life calculation even though event locality may be uneconomic, e.g. clicking a Like) such as fun, learning, collaborating, politics, and socializing (just as we are doing here in this forum).

In what way can crypto technology (block chains, decentralized currency, etc) participate in the aforementioned trend?

Yeah people want to have fun, but that doesn't seem to have any direct relationship to crypto currency that we can yet identify, other than some promotional confluence mania that flamed out. (Unless someone can explain any other reason for Doge's continued existence, I will assume it is because some people still believe it has a future and that can be self-sustaining at some small level).

So I have stated above that most of the youth are consumers of interactive (social) media, and their economic motivation is holistic (fun, learning, collaborating, politics, and socializing) and not for an immediate income. Whereas the media providers (not always the content creators as the content may be produced by the participants for free) are motivated by direct economic gain, either in the form of income (usually ad driven) and/or company market cap appreciation.

Thus I have concluded that in most scenarios the consumers of interactive media have no use for crypto currency.

Is it possible to create interactive media where some of the participants (maybe providers of content or interaction) are motivated primarily by economic income (or a combination of the holistic benefits and income)? What are the examples out there already in cyberspace? The examples that come to my mind seem very limited in participation, e.g. live nude chat, typing job, creative job such as graphic arts or writing. Are there any music distribution sites where the providers of content are being paid by the consumers of content? Isn't it so competitive to get your music heard, that you must not charge for it?

Can anyone comment?

[CoinHoarder]

Is it possible to create interactive media where some of the participants (maybe providers of content or interaction) are motivated primarily by economic income (or a combination of the holistic benefits and income)? What are the examples out there already in cyberspace? The examples that come to my mind seem very limited in participation, e.g. live nude chat, typing job, creative job such as graphic arts or writing. Are there any music distribution sites where the providers of content are being paid by the consumers of content? Isn't it so competitive to get your music heard, that you must not charge for it?

Can anyone comment?

Of course people pay for music... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_on-demand_streaming_music_services
This is a good article: http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-rockstars-cryptocurrency-music-industry/
The Bitshares ecosystem has been working on an interesting solution which allows listeners to invest in the success of an artist or band, and profit off of finding good talent early in their career: http://peertracks.com/

I think social media can possibly be taken over by cryptocurrency/decentralized/blockchain technology. Think about it... Facebook has a market capitalization of 266.3 billion. What if a portion of their net profit was distributed to its users instead? Which service would you use... one that makes money off of you providing you nothing in return, or one that pays you to use its service? There are likely a few projects attempting to capitalize on this space. The only one off the top of my head I can name is Synereo and I am on the fence as to whether it is is a legit project or a P&D... I am waiting on the sidelines for now. http://www.synereo.com/

Cutting out the middlemen in "live nude chat, typing job, creative job such as graphic arts or writing" could prove to be a lucrative decentralized business plan as well. Any business that is ran by middlemen can be eliminated by decentralized technology. People call all these random features "gimmicks", but they fail to understand that we are cutting out middlemen with each feature added. Coins like Nxt and Bitshares are attempting to become the Google/Apple of blockchains, and this is a successful model in my opinion. That is why I support them so. All of these "cryptocurrencies are only supposed to be used as currencies" types really annoy me, because I think decentralized technology is going to be very disruptive in a lot of industries.

[TechorMarketing]

Thus I have concluded that in most scenarios the consumers of interactive media have no use for crypto currency.

Is it possible to create interactive media where some of the participants (maybe providers of content or interaction) are motivated primarily by economic income (or a combination of the holistic benefits and income)? What are the examples out there already in cyberspace? The examples that come to my mind seem very limited in participation, e.g. live nude chat, typing job, creative job such as graphic arts or writing. Are there any music distribution sites where the providers of content are being paid by the consumers of content? Isn't it so competitive to get your music heard, that you must not charge for it?

Can anyone comment?

There are many people who create content for YouTube with the primary goal of income generation (through advertising revenue share) and countless other examples. In many cases the platform owner (in this case Google/YouTube) captures the lions share of the profits. Micro transactions (tipping income instead of ads) could help provide more income for the content generators in such situations assuming the infrastructure was built to easier facilitate it. Users would benefit (from voluntary tipping) by not being forced to watch as many advertisements.

[TPTB_need_war]

Thus I have concluded that in most scenarios the consumers of interactive media have no use for crypto currency.

Is it possible to create interactive media where some of the participants (maybe providers of content or interaction) are motivated primarily by economic income (or a combination of the holistic benefits and income)? What are the examples out there already in cyberspace? The examples that come to my mind seem very limited in participation, e.g. live nude chat, typing job, creative job such as graphic arts or writing. Are there any music distribution sites where the providers of content are being paid by the consumers of content? Isn't it so competitive to get your music heard, that you must not charge for it?

Can anyone comment?

There are many people who create content for YouTube with the primary goal of income generation (through advertising revenue share) and countless other examples. In many cases the platform owner (in this case Google/YouTube) captures the lions share of the profits. Micro transactions (tipping income instead of ads) could help provide more income for the content generators in such situations assuming the infrastructure was built to easier facilitate it. Users would benefit (from voluntary tipping) by not being forced to watch as many advertisements.

You might not be aware that I also proposed this idea in my vaporcoin thread.

Please read again the links I provided upthread on why the cognitive/effort load of paying in small morsels is hated by humans.

I am believing in the concept that content producers want to earn an income. I am not believing in the concept that users want a pay-per-view model for enjoying videos. It appears to me that Google is experimenting with just how frequently they can push ads on viewers without causing attrition. I agree the ads are annoying, but I don't think that per-per-view is going to work for an activity that people simply want to enjoy. Even if you asked people to knowingly pay $5 a month a month to avoid ads, I think they would not bother to switch from Youtube. Google would moderate the ads sufficiently so that the incentive to switch would be diminished.

I think rather the incentive is on the content provider side as you said, Google is taking the lions share of the revenue, but also bear in mind they have the lions share of the web traffic.

Again a chicken-and-egg dilemma and additionally the problem that users won't pay-per-view. I think I may know how to solve the latter issue, but the former issue is very challenging to conquer. Even if you assume users will agree to have their microtransaction balance automatically deducted some microcents for each video viewed, you still have the initial problem of how to distribute the currency into their hands in the first place. If they have to go buy it on an exchange, that kills adoption right there. Even if you could sell the coin for credit card or Paypal, it still would cause a huge attrition rate.

A third problem is that the value users are willing to transfer for watching a video may be much less than the advertising revenue that could be generated. Typically afaik ~$10 CPM, that is 1 cents per video viewed for each ad on the page.

Are you going to pay $1 for each 10 - 100 videos you view so there will be no ads on the page?

The video ads are the most disruptive (unlike banner ads) but they also probably pay a much higher CPM. I haven't researched that though.

Edit: also ideally you would feel better if you only have to pay once and can own viewing rights to that video forever. And you would feel better to pay for what you know in advance will be quality content. A potential difference between YouTube and music, is if you could trial music for negligible cost then you may pay more when you are sure you want to own the song for unlimited future listening. Whereas, for video we typically watch most videos only once. Music doesn't require our total attention, so it can coexist with doing other activities and thus can be replayed in more circumstances. Video demands our complete attention which is perhaps why advertising is more lucrative for videos (I am assuming, not sure  about that).

[TPTB_need_war]

I think social media can possibly be taken over by cryptocurrency/decentralized/blockchain technology. Think about it... Facebook has a market capitalization of 266.3 billion. What if a portion of their net profit was distributed to its users instead? Which service would you use... one that makes money off of you providing you nothing in return, or one that pays you to use its service? There are likely a few projects attempting to capitalize on this space. The only one off the top of my head I can name is Synereo and I am on the fence as to whether it is is a legit project or a P&D... I am waiting on the sidelines for now. http://www.synereo.com/

I will respond to the rest of your informative post later (as I need to go outside on this Sunday).

I think Synereo may be conceptually on the right track, in that ads should preferrably be content that users want to see. I can envision content providers being creative in how they advertise products within enjoyable content. The bottom line is the economics per my prior post in reply to TechorMarketing. There were one or two ads on Google that were so interesting to me, I wanted to save a copy of the video ad. Meaning the way to beat Google is by making the advertising more efficient, thus superior ROI for all participants (advertiser, content creator, and viewer). If the superior algorithms require decentralization and cutting out the middle man, then Google with all its technical prowess can do nothing to compete.

I only scanned a portion of their white paper. I believe they may have Sybil attack problems in their attention model (thus being gamed and not having the result intended), but I can't yet judge that with any certainty as I need to study it more carefully.

You've given me something very intellectually deep to chomp on, so thank you. I love conceptual paradigm shifts and I like to analyze models. I will need more time on this.

Looks to me as though they are serious. The devil is in the details on their technical model. They have a brainy looking CSO mathematician, so perhaps some of the model theory is originating from him.

[afreer]

"and I can't put x86 assembly code in the browser without a browser plugin that n00b users won't install "

you could write a compute-shader in GLSL and deploy using WebGL to HTML5 browsers, GPU accelerated and no browser plugin necessary.

Thanks. Yeah I had done that research last night too:

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/10320/how-useful-is-a-javascript-miner

But I think that only uses part of the CPU and I want to use all the CPU (relative electricity cost is inapplicable in my use case of unprofitable mining). I think that can maybe used in addition to a memory hard algorithm. Does WebGL always use the GPU or is there a way to detect? Any way, I will dig down into those details. I am first revisiting my 2013 work on memory hard PoW algorithms (since I can't get access to AES-NI from within the browser which is what my latter PoW hash was primarily based on and which for example Cryptonote's hash requires which is why it can't run fast in the browser).

Thanks, that's interesting, it's been done already then, this one from your link uses a fragment/vertex shader for Sha256: https://github.com/derjanb/hamiyoca/blob/master/glminer.js

It's kind of a gaping hole in WebGL that full GPU-compute access is given without permission from a cryptocurrency perspective because someone could embed an alt miner in a HTML5 page and make a web-based botnet if they could get the traffic.  On the other hand I guess someone could monetize a site by running a background WebGL miner with the user's permission instead of e.g. advertising.  Neither have the barrier of needing the user to install additional software.

Regarding your requirement, I see what you mean, I don't think there's a way to get at a specific instruction set because browsers are CPU-agnostic in terms of the code you can run.  You just have GPU access via WebGL and multi-threaded Javascript via HTML5 WebWorkers which is pretty quick but nothing that would limit to a CPU I think (unless you can create a memory hard algo with those 2 features).  

[Elokane]

Is it possible to create interactive media where some of the participants (maybe providers of content or interaction) are motivated primarily by economic income (or a combination of the holistic benefits and income)? What are the examples out there already in cyberspace? The examples that come to my mind seem very limited in participation, e.g. live nude chat, typing job, creative job such as graphic arts or writing. Are there any music distribution sites where the providers of content are being paid by the consumers of content? Isn't it so competitive to get your music heard, that you must not charge for it?

Can anyone comment?

I think social media can possibly be taken over by cryptocurrency/decentralized/blockchain technology. Think about it... Facebook has a market capitalization of 266.3 billion. What if a portion of their net profit was distributed to its users instead? Which service would you use... one that makes money off of you providing you nothing in return, or one that pays you to use its service? There are likely a few projects attempting to capitalize on this space. The only one off the top of my head I can name is Synereo and I am on the fence as to whether it is is a legit project or a P&D... I am waiting on the sidelines for now. http://www.synereo.com/

What's giving you the impression of malevolent intent by Synereo?

[MicroGuy]

I think both Technology and Marketing are essential.

Right now I am evaluating two projects. One has great tech but a small community and very little marketing. The other project has a larger community and fancy marketing materials  but its underlying technology is not as strong.  

Which project should I support? Is it easier to fix broken tech or implement an effective marketing plan?

The main thing to understand about money is that it's all about people, neither marketing nor technology. David Jerry puts it best!

“Money is a collective delusion. (Or in case of fiat, a Ponzi scheme) You need believers everywhere otherwise its value is zero.” ~ David Jerry

Once you digest and comprehend that, everything else becomes easy. Value your community as you value yourself, believe in your community and believe in yourself, extend your hands to help one another, and everything else will fall perfectly into place.