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Question: Which do you prefer?
Ring CT (cryptography) - 30 (60%)
Soda Vending Machine (thirsty) - 20 (40%)
Total Voters: 50

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Author Topic: Ring Confidential Transactions or Soda Vending Machine?  (Read 3492 times)
ArticMine
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January 28, 2016, 07:44:05 AM
 #21

Soft drinks regardless of whether they are sweetened with sugar or artificial sweeteners cause all sorts of health problems including but not limited to obesity, diabetics, heart problems, cancers etc.  

I voted for Ring Confidential Transactions. The health impact of this is to stimulate the brain while learning how they work, with all sorts of beneficial health results.
I would agree with the problems you mentioned about sugared soft drinks but I don't believe the evidence for what you claimed about artificially-sweetened soft drinks.  I think those are way better than the sugared drinks and I think the cancer claims are pretty much hooey.

Edit:  What is this thread really about?

There is a lot of evidence of the harmful effects of artificial sweeteners. Here are some articles.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-drinks/artificial-sweeteners/
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/12/23/artificial-sweeteners-confuse-body.aspx
http://drhyman.com/blog/2010/06/19/artificial-sweeteners-could-be-sabotaging-your-diet/
http://authoritynutrition.com/artificial-sweeteners-and-weight-gain/

Of course those people who get their information from Coca Cola ads are not going to learn about the adverse vs beneficial health effects of artificially sweetened soft drinks any more than looking at a stripper in front of a soda machine will tell one if the technology behind Dash is sound or not.

What is this thread about? It is really about the relative value of facts based upon scientific evidence vs marketing baloney. This applies equally to beverages as to crypto currencies

Edit: Soft drinks was the most likely cause of Gulf War Syndrome among US veterans  http://dorway.com/military-admits-gulf-war-illness-aspartame/ Aspartame breaks down in heat into toxic chemicals and the soft drinks were stored exposed to the hot desert sun in Saudi Arabia.

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
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January 28, 2016, 01:40:08 PM
Last edit: January 28, 2016, 01:50:24 PM by st0at
 #22

i would rather live in shelbyville than springfield

You do realize that the real name of AnnoyingMint who has been attacking your beloved Dash, is Shelby Moore. I discovered that by clicking the AnonyMint link in TPTB_need_war's signature line.

I've been doing some research on AnonyMint's posts, and he mentioned he is descended from Isaac Shelby, which Wikipedia cites Shelbyville, TN is named in honor of.
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January 28, 2016, 10:26:44 PM
 #23


What is this thread about? It is really about the relative value of facts based upon scientific evidence vs marketing baloney. This applies equally to beverages as to crypto currencies


Unfortunately there are many crypto currency projects that do not have sufficient scientific evidence or peer review to back their claims.  Some of these projects prefer to use marketing baloney to facilitate short term gains instead of focusing of building a sound technical foundation.
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January 28, 2016, 10:59:05 PM
 #24

ITT:
Butthurt losers angrily ranting about DASH's success. LOL Grin

Btw: Where's that "massive dump after the Miami hype" you ding-dongs kept yapping about? DASH still strong above 4 USD. You mad? Tongue

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January 28, 2016, 11:17:03 PM
 #25

I had a weird dream that I was working at a cryptocurrency startup called Dash with even duffield.   He was the boss and every weekend each memebr of the team (there was about 20 of us) got 70 dash to spend over the weekend.  Our mission was to spend 70 dash at as many stores as possible.


I remember in my dream I quite enjoyed the team comeraderie.   And that even duffield who looked nothing like in real life was a pretty cool boss.  

And he showed us an innovative payment method using a mobile phone which as far as I can remember was really cool.  

It was a dream obviously but I woke up. And I'm still trying to work out what he showed me that was so cool.


A weird dream granted, but interesting at the same time


I dreamed about Dash. It was weird.

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January 28, 2016, 11:22:00 PM
 #26

My point originally was this vending machine idea is exactly the sort of thing the Dash team in my dream would have come up with.   I currently own no Dash at alm but now that dream made such a heavy impression on my mind I'm thinking about getting into it.  Are there any resources to get wallets (especially phone apps). And maybe a couple Dash to get started with? 

I currently only own Ethereum but you cant buy shit with it yet. Can you use dash for anything in the UK?

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January 29, 2016, 12:34:17 AM
 #27

Saying that people need to know about something (or understand it) in order to use it or want it is a pretty ridiculous statement and here are some examples why:

People must know about the existence of something, must know what is that thing, must know what's the purpose of that thing, and finally must have some basic understanding of that thing to be able to use it.

Quote
Would you rather have a soda machine or https?

Would you rather have a cabbage or a 4-d printer?

Would you rather have  a paper plane or MS HoloLens?

It depends.
If I don't know WWW then I not even going to notice https, but most likely I'll use the soda machine.
If I don't know what is that big box and what's the purpose of it, I'll turn it to a fireplace to cook my cabbage.
Of course hololens! Cool sunglasses mate, a bit heavy tho'... Cheesy.

Quote
And lets not skew what the question really is: would you rather have a non-private digital payment process (that already exist for credit cards) or an already more private process that has been augmented by confidential transactions?

Stop a random bloke on the street, show him both wallets and ask him which one he likes more.

Quote
Dash didn't invent soda machines that accept digital payments, they just managed to turn one into a billboard.

Yes they turned something to a billboard and illustrated that it's just working in any simple, everyday use case.
You see, Microsoft didn't invented the computer or the internet they just wrote some crappy pieces of software what made computers and internet easy to use for average Joe, they've also made a lot of noise around their stuff and they made a fortune. In the meantime DEC what actually invented computers, have made the finest OSes of that time and was around the development of the Internet, crapped out because of the lack of user friendly products and good marketing.

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January 29, 2016, 12:40:12 AM
 #28

My point originally was this vending machine idea is exactly the sort of thing the Dash team in my dream would have come up with.   I currently own no Dash at alm but now that dream made such a heavy impression on my mind I'm thinking about getting into it.  Are there any resources to get wallets (especially phone apps). And maybe a couple Dash to get started with? 

I currently only own Ethereum but you cant buy shit with it yet. Can you use dash for anything in the UK?

Not really. I guess you can buy weed and such stuff with it but that's not used to be advertised on any soda machines Smiley.
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January 29, 2016, 04:42:20 AM
Last edit: January 29, 2016, 04:59:14 AM by st0at
 #29

What is this thread about? It is really about the relative value of facts based upon scientific evidence vs marketing baloney. This applies equally to beverages as to crypto currencies

Unfortunately there are manyall crypto currency projects that do not have sufficient scientific evidence or peer review to back their claims.  AllSome of these projects prefer to use marketing baloney to facilitate short term gains instead of focusing of building a sound technical foundation.

"To da moon or bust with my lunch allowance", is my motto.

By the way, user adoption won't be coming to any of these altcoins in any of the ways that are currently being contemplated. Not by soda machines, ATMs, anonymity features, nor airdrops. Synereo has an interesting idea but there are more questions than answers at least in my mind. But again, we are not here to answer these questions. We are here to speculate on lunch allowance speculators.
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January 29, 2016, 05:07:07 AM
 #30

Saying that people need to know about something (or understand it) in order to use it or want it is a pretty ridiculous statement and here are some examples why:

People must know about the existence of something, must know what is that thing, must know what's the purpose of that thing, and finally must have some basic understanding of that thing to be able to use it.

Quote
Would you rather have a soda machine or https?

Would you rather have a cabbage or a 4-d printer?

Would you rather have  a paper plane or MS HoloLens?

It depends.
If I don't know WWW then I not even going to notice https, but most likely I'll use the soda machine.
If I don't know what is that big box and what's the purpose of it, I'll turn it to a fireplace to cook my cabbage.
Of course hololens! Cool sunglasses mate, a bit heavy tho'... Cheesy.

Quote
And lets not skew what the question really is: would you rather have a non-private digital payment process (that already exist for credit cards) or an already more private process that has been augmented by confidential transactions?

Stop a random bloke on the street, show him both wallets and ask him which one he likes more.

Quote
Dash didn't invent soda machines that accept digital payments, they just managed to turn one into a billboard.

Yes they turned something to a billboard and illustrated that it's just working in any simple, everyday use case.
You see, Microsoft didn't invented the computer or the internet they just wrote some crappy pieces of software what made computers and internet easy to use for average Joe, they've also made a lot of noise around their stuff and they made a fortune. In the meantime DEC what actually invented computers, have made the finest OSes of that time and was around the development of the Internet, crapped out because of the lack of user friendly products and good marketing.



My point (and you missed it) is that people, when they find out the use of a thing, don't need to understand it--they just need to know what it does, and if you would chose a soda machine over https or solid cryptography, while knowing what they do, then you would be a dumbass. Dash's cryptography is flawed, so comparisons to Microsoft are ridiculous.

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January 29, 2016, 05:18:20 AM
 #31

My point (and you missed it) is that people, when they find out the use of a thing, don't need to understand it--they just need to know what it does, and if you would chose a soda machine over https or solid cryptography, while knowing what they do, then you would be a dumbass. Dash's cryptography is flawed, so comparisons to Microsoft are ridiculous.

So what you really said logically is that the only people who will buy anonymity are those who understand and trust how it works. Or speculators who are speculating on speculators.

That is why the market for privacy will be the serious users who have the resources and motivation to understand the technology.

Soda machines do not address that serious user target market. Does Cryptonote? Seems there is a loony tune over at Reddit who thinks not. As for myself, I am sticking with the more certain target market of lunch allowance speculators. The wise here seem to have also come to that same conclusion.
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January 29, 2016, 05:25:10 AM
 #32

My point (and you missed it) is that people, when they find out the use of a thing, don't need to understand it--they just need to know what it does, and if you would chose a soda machine over https or solid cryptography, while knowing what they do, then you would be a dumbass. Dash's cryptography is flawed, so comparisons to Microsoft are ridiculous.

So what you really said logically is that the only people who will buy anonymity are those who understand and trust how it works. Or speculators who are speculating on speculators.

That is why the market for privacy will be the serious users who have the resources and motivation to understand the technology.

Soda machines do not address that serious user target market. Does Cryptonote? Seems there is a loony tune over at Reddit who thinks not. As for myself, I am sticking with the more certain target market of lunch allowance speculators. The wise here seem to have also come to that same conclusion.

People who have nosy wives will figure out anonymity.  Tongue

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January 29, 2016, 05:41:45 AM
 #33

People who have nosy wives will figure out anonymity.  Tongue

They already have. That is why they don't tell their wives their secret BTC address(es). It logically follows that the entities that have a sufficient economic incentive for block chain mixing will also inspect the technology with a fine tooth comb. Again I don't care, because I only care what speculators will throw their lunch money at.
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January 29, 2016, 05:53:54 AM
 #34

People who have nosy wives will figure out anonymity.  Tongue

They already have. That is why they don't tell their wives their secret BTC address(es). It logically follows that the entities that have a sufficient economic incentive for block chain mixing will also inspect the technology with a fine tooth comb. Again I don't care, because I only care what speculators will throw their lunch money at.

And as soon as divorce attorneys realize that they can inspect the Bitcoin blockchain with technologies already at hand and make correlations to mistresses, prostitutes and camgirls, that dog and pony show of anonymity will be at an end. We both placed a bet on which way this will turn, so either we are both proved correct, wrong or one of us is on the wrong side of it. It's not a big deal--though given your stance, I wonder why you even follow this debate?

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January 29, 2016, 06:06:49 AM
 #35

People who have nosy wives will figure out anonymity.  Tongue

They already have. That is why they don't tell their wives their secret BTC address(es). It logically follows that the entities that have a sufficient economic incentive for block chain mixing will also inspect the technology with a fine tooth comb. Again I don't care, because I only care what speculators will throw their lunch money at.

And as soon as divorce attorneys realize that they can inspect the Bitcoin blockchain with technologies already at hand and make correlations to mistresses, prostitutes and camgirls, that dog and pony show of anonymity will be at an end. We both placed a bet on which way this will turn, so either we are both proved correct, wrong or one of us is on the wrong side of it. It's not a big deal--though given your stance, I wonder why you even follow this debate?

That is when they try using Cryptonote and it fails (even once per 1000 spends) due to their fumbling of meta data, so these mere mortals give up and pay in gold, gifts such as jewelry, or cash (if it is still available). Business can spawn which pretend to sell computer software but really ship jewelry. "Oh honey, that was some software for my business". Humans are very ingenuous and prefer to use methods they understand because they can't trust what they don't understand.

Or they learn how to handle their meta data and using decentralized exchanges to launder money in which case they do not need Cryptonote.

Or something more robust to meta data arrives.

And yeah I don't care in terms of my speculative investing here. I care if I am considering a long-term investment, and so far nothing qualifies per my analysis but to each his own.
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January 29, 2016, 07:37:46 AM
 #36

People who have nosy wives will figure out anonymity.  Tongue

They already have. That is why they don't tell their wives their secret BTC address(es). It logically follows that the entities that have a sufficient economic incentive for block chain mixing will also inspect the technology with a fine tooth comb. Again I don't care, because I only care what speculators will throw their lunch money at.

And as soon as divorce attorneys realize that they can inspect the Bitcoin blockchain with technologies already at hand and make correlations to mistresses, prostitutes and camgirls, that dog and pony show of anonymity will be at an end. We both placed a bet on which way this will turn, so either we are both proved correct, wrong or one of us is on the wrong side of it. It's not a big deal--though given your stance, I wonder why you even follow this debate?

That is when they try using Cryptonote and it fails (even once per 1000 spends) due to their fumbling of meta data, so these mere mortals give up and pay in gold, gifts such as jewelry, or cash (if it is still available). Business can spawn which pretend to sell computer software but really ship jewelry. "Oh honey, that was some software for my business". Humans are very ingenuous and prefer to use methods they understand because they can't trust what they don't understand.

Or they learn how to handle their meta data and using decentralized exchanges to launder money in which case they do not need Cryptonote.

Or something more robust to meta data arrives.

And yeah I don't care in terms of my speculative investing here. I care if I am considering a long-term investment, and so far nothing qualifies per my analysis but to each his own.

You're missing that Monero is building not just a currency, but a one stop shop of privacy solutions. The tokenization of assets is just what forms the network, and the more private this is, the better. Layering Bitcoin with ad hoc solutions is inefficient and will offer subpar performance in both network and privacy. IE. Icing won't hide that the cake is dry and moldy.

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January 29, 2016, 08:51:19 AM
 #37

What he's missing is that Zerocash is essentially vaporware. It is too inefficient and too immature to be considered a viable approach today. No one argues that a zero knowledge blockchain is superior in terms of privacy, the crux of the argument is how to balance that with everything else about it.

But then "certain people" have a certain affinity for The Ultimate Vaporware. Others make good engineering tradeoffs to build and deliver real usable systems.
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January 29, 2016, 09:53:34 AM
 #38

What he's missing is that Zerocash is essentially vaporware. It is too inefficient and too immature to be considered a viable approach today. No one argues that a zero knowledge blockchain is superior in terms of privacy, the crux of the argument is how to balance that with everything else about it.

But then "certain people" have a certain affinity for The Ultimate Vaporware. Others make good engineering tradeoffs to build and deliver real usable systems.


I think also missing applies as he mentioned that people would just use solutions built on top of Bitcoin. Another point to be made about zerocash is would anyone with millions of dollars (or more) in transactions trust unproven cryptography to use in their day to day business? I doubt anyone with the assets (or need) to meet this qualification would be so stupid.

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January 29, 2016, 11:08:39 AM
 #39

My point (and you missed it) is that people, when they find out the use of a thing, don't need to understand it--they just need to know what it does, and if you would chose a soda machine over https or solid cryptography, while knowing what they do, then you would be a dumbass. Dash's cryptography is flawed, so comparisons to Microsoft are ridiculous.

I didn't missed it. I agree, people don't need to be car mechanic to drive a car, but they need some understanding of traffic rules, driving, how to handle a car, and what are the features and limitations. But before all of these things they have to know what a car is, what's the purpose of it, and they also have to believe that they need a car and they will be able to use it. That's all marketing, and marketing is something what the dash guys doing at least on some basic level, while you monero guys used to ignore this aspect (apart from mocking dash) Smiley. Technological superiority on its own not necessarily result in greater adoption or greater success.

Microsoft stuff was also notoriously flawed, but it was easy to use and advertised everywhere. OS/2 was far better and safer but because of the lack of publicity it remained a geeky stuff and finally disappeared. So that comparison isn't that ridiculous.
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January 29, 2016, 01:16:58 PM
Last edit: January 29, 2016, 02:20:04 PM by TPTB_need_war
 #40

Individuals don't/won't care about your privacy apps and ecosystem. The masses are blithely unworried about the fact that Facebook sends all our data to the NSA. What matters to the masses is the freedom to do what they want to do. This manifests itself in market strategies very far removed from anything that has anything to do with anonymous block chains. I do not care if you disagree. You will learn by failing.

Corporations care about privacy for their proprietary data such as sales, etc.. They will have no choice but to fund and develop privacy solutions for public block chains, else they will never use public block chains or corporations as we know them today will morph into something else.

Block chains are still in beta testing and ring homomorphic value signatures on block chain are new unproven vaporware also.

I am tried of this nonsense. We can go in circles forever arguing. Bottom line is you have no marketing sense. And this will be clear in the future. Please carry on and I will too. Goodbye.

P.S. I was thinking about who I might add to my LinkedIn account from this 3 years I spent here in Bitcointalk and there isn't a single person I've met who is worth adding. Besides most of you are anonymous. You are out-of-touch with reality. This forum is a small echo chamber for selling P&Ds to speculators. There is no one here who has any clue about marketing or any clue about actually producing something for a large and significant market.

Rant or whatever. I am tired of this. So go ahead and believe in your nonsense and keep preaching the same lies to yourself and your flock.



I wrote the above very quickly and while I eating I realized I really didn't convey the full extent of my thoughts and I am concerned that readers won't be able to read between the lines as to my full thought process.

Some users care about privacy in the sense of privacy of certain details of their life such as their home address, phone number, bank account password, etc.. RingCT can't make any of these private. Unreliable RingCT must be employed together with an unreliable mixnet just to achieve unreliable privacy of crypto currency transactions. It doesn't even begin to address the real privacy needs of normal people.

Zk-snarks offer the potential to make make more scripts and more types of data private on the block chain. RingCT can never do that, so it doesn't matter what ecosystem you build on top of RingCT, it won't address the privacy needs of the normal people.

It is quite clear to me that everything we are doing here is still in beta or alpha mode and is more or less just vaporware. Even Monero is running, it is still vaporware in the sense that it is entirely unscalable.

We haven't accomplished anything yet. Bitcoin has shown the potential, but it is also showing that it wasn't designed to scale.

If you all can't even recognize simple logic such as this, then it is a complete waste of my time to post in this forum. I am accustomed to dealing with people whose brain stem is more functional than their stubbornness.

Now I understand that those who are here just to speculate and they don't care about these sort of technobabble details and widescale adoption scaling. So to them I apologize for interjecting my technical analysis in their speculation threads.

There is a lot more I could say, such as describing how I started off thinking anonymity was the most important priority and why I transitioned. But the bottom line is I want to get back to working with fun people who are not scammers not anonymous and who are doing inspirational work that really impacts the world in terms of usership. I want to work on projects with 100+ million users. I want to get back to using my creative skills. And I want to work in an arena where I can work with the best engineers in a fun and mutually respectful environment. This forum is such a dark place compared to working productively with a group of talented engineers shown below:



This forum is toxic.

Bitcoin is toxic. Crypto currency is transitioning from an inspiration to a reputation of scamming, theft, toxic egotistical developers, snobs, stubbornness, unprofessional boyish infighting, criminal avoidance of SEC regulations (Erik Voorhees and every coin in this forum), $multi-million ICOs that spend all the money w/o addressing the most basic fundamental technical issue of block chain scripting, etc..

Soon no one will touch crypto currency (and possible block chains) with a 100 foot pole. You are poisoning the well from which we all drink.

What I will try to do now is quickly bypass all of this and restore legality, respectability, trust, and widespread adoption to crypto currency. I said I will try. Failure or finding a better opportunity are also possible.

So again good luck. That is my 25 cents of drivel.

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