17yo girl faces fine for using pepper spray against sex attacker

[bryant.coleman]

It is not very easy to compare the rate rapes in Europe with that in the United States. In the US, most of the rapes are reported, while in the European Union, that is not the case. The main reason is the difference in the quantum of punishment offered to the perpetrators. In the US, rapists will be jailed from 30 years to life without parole, while in countries such as Sweden, most of the rapists avoid jail time even if they are convicted.

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[mOgliE]

I'm not sure I understand. If the attacker fled the scene and hasn't been found, them who is charging her?
I mean the police wasn't there, otherwise she would not have had to use the pepper spray, which means they have no evidence.
What the hell is happening? Is this a joke? What's happening with the scandinavian countries? I hear only bad jokes from what happens there.

Yes of course they have evidence because she said it to the police....
It's a bit like if you came to the police saying "somebody tried to rob me, I want to sue them" 'of course madam, what happened? Did you get hurt? Did he stole anything?" "Nah, I had my shotgun with me so it was ok"
It's the best evidence as she admited being in possession of it.

[mOgliE]

It is not very easy to compare the rate rapes in Europe with that in the United States. In the US, most of the rapes are reported, while in the European Union, that is not the case. The main reason is the difference in the quantum of punishment offered to the perpetrators. In the US, rapists will be jailed from 30 years to life without parole, while in countries such as Sweden, most of the rapists avoid jail time even if they are convicted.

Ok that was plain opinion bullshit. You do realize that in most Europeans countries rape will be punished by at least 15 years of prison (if he surrendered to the police or in some borderlines cases with alchool involved for example) and it can go to lifetime jail in case of extremely violent rapes. Your claim is just plain bullshit and based on the fact that in Europe you don't go to jail until you're proven guilty. Sorry if we actually consider presomption of innocence a thing here...

[mOgliE]

It's a simple question about human rights. If you believe in human rights, you accept the necessity of self-defense. Without self-defense, there can be no human rights, only the illusion of them.

When a person employs the use of lethal force against an attacker, that attacker becomes unable to spread certain genetic deficiencies which poison the human genome affecting the quality of life for the future of humanity. It's a scientific fact, irrespective of what anybody believes, that every action or inaction will have a future consequence or reaction of some sort. It's already been established that a deficiency must be present to violently rape another person, no reasonable person would do it.

If you believe people are utterly incapable of determining when they need to defend themselves, then continue your gun control crusade. But if you believe you could identify an attack against yourself, and choose when it's reasonable to defend yourself, then gun control is an oppression on your ability to enact a dire need to defend yourself.

This is just so much bullshit it burns my eyes...

1/ No it's not a question of Human rights. The declaration of Human Rights says nothing about self defense but about security, and considering that violent crimes and rapes are more frequent in the USA than in Europe I'd say security is better here. It's a question of pros and cons of letting the people own killing machines nothing else!

2/ This utter bullshit implies that criminals have some perticular "crime genes" which is, not only stupid and not proved scientifically, but is also implying that being a criminal has nothing to do with your social status/condition/education but is all in your genes.

3/ Well go look at the number of deaths by firearms and massive killings in the USA and I'd say it's rather logical to assume that some people absolutely have no sense of control and it's far better to let the guns to the police.

[TECSHARE]

Everyone who is in favor of gun control in the United States need to see this. This is what happens when you allow the liberals to take away your guns. First they will take away your guns. Then they will take away your kitchen knife. After that they will ban you from carrying pepper spray or any other substance, which could be useful in defending yourself. The left-wing loonies want to make you defenseless against the rapists and murderers.

If the law system works great there won't be rapists and murderers other than psychopats. Give 25 to life to rapists and murderers in bad conditions and see how many people dare this again.

doesn't matter if you're sarcastic with this but i somehow find it very doable for the government to implement such. its always fear that will make these low life back off. its death that will always make them back off. and putting it in thier minds that they will surely find death if they commit such crime so long as they are caught with evidence and a witness itself, the criminals would be dead before they'd have their day on court.

Allowing people to defend themselves would be madness, but allowing your wives, mothers, daughters, and sisters to be raped then executing the attacker isn't? Funny, aren't these things Europeans have been criticizing Americans about for years (ie the death penalty)?

Having the right to own guns doesn't really make anything against rapes you know? Otherwise USA wouldn't have a higher rape rate than most UE countries (except for Belgium and Sweden).
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate

It's always a question of pros and cons. And seeing the violent crimes in countries with right to own guns, and those with guns control, I know where my choice is.

Yes, lets just ignore the fact that Sweden, Belgium, and Australia all have higher rates of rape in spite of having smaller populations and much stricter gun control laws or outright bans on gun ownership. I love that you still can't find your own sources as well and are still parroting the very statistics site I sourced to you previously when I attempted to debate gun control with you as you spouted your opinions over and over as if they were fact. BTW don't expect those rape stats to stay low for most of Europe this year and many following.

Hum... I didn't say anything about Australia because... You know... It's not in Europe and you were just spitting on European legislation. I can find my own sources thanks but this site was on the first results and as you gave it once I thought it would be easier for you to admit your wrong. Seems it will not.

And yes let's ignore the fact that only 2 of the 28 EU countries have higher rape rate  which means that 26 of 28 countries have a lower one.... What do you need to see that 26 > 2 ?

BTW, funny how when it's you, it's fact, when it's me, it's opinion no?

You didn't say anything about Australia because it doesn't fit your narrative of gun ownership having no effect on preventing rape. I responded to your claim and used your own source to show that you ignored other instances which refute your claims in order to yes, push your opinion. He who claims proves, and your proof is not very compelling, especially considering how large and diverse the US is compared to these other countries. You can tell me about per-capita if you want, I assure you I know how to interpret statistics. I am not sure you are able, but the per-capita rate does not account for the disparities in different classes, cultures, religions, races, etc that lead to higher crime rates which would lead to a greater need for gun ownership for self defense.

Lets discuss the rate of rapes in Europe one year from now (2016 stats) and compare it to the US rates shall we? Its easy to claim superiority when the wave of destruction is just starting to crash against you and you have nothing to defend yourselves with. The current crime rates are not reflected in years old statistics. Just because Europe enjoyed a short period of superior quality of life doesn't mean you are guaranteed that future, and marxists and socialists such as yourself will ensure Europe's speedy decline.

Well I'll let you by your words. As you said, he who claims must prove. Then prove that " marxists and socialists such as yourself will ensure Europe's speedy decline.".

I didn't say anything about Australia because it was not related to YOUR claim and YOUR statement about European legislation. I like how you consider that "considering how large and diverse the US is compared to these other countries.". Well I'll go with your way of debating, just prove that claim. Cause as you kept saying, that's just an opinion.

EU has twice the population of USA, 28 times the legislation complexity, numerous different cultures and etcnics groups, dense history, more or less 25 different languages, and you just come here and caim that it's "not so much diversified, especially compared to the US".

Well. When it's you it's just fact no? But when I don't take one non European country because YOU were talking about European legislation, you say that I try to push my opinion. Double standards no? If we go this way, shall we also consider the dozen of gun non control country having superior rape rate or would it be out of debate because it doesn't suit you? At least I have the honnesty to apologize when I misinterprete a stat.

And ok let's discuss Europe rape rate at the end of 2016, I'm pretty sure it won't ashame our continent. But as for anything else, you know better of course.

P.S. Oh and of course let's totally forget about the fact that 26 out of 28 nations have a lower rape rate than US. It doesn't prove ANYTHING.

Now you are just using red herrings and straw man arguments again, sorry you don't get to make statements for me then tell me to defend them. The premise under debate is the right to use force as self defense and its efficacy in preventing violence, not your twisted Marxist ideologies. Just because you believe you are making a logical argument does not make it fact, so no, it is not a double standard. You were trying to argue that gun ownership has no effect on the rate of rape, and you left out Australia because it doesn't fit with your argument. No one but you claimed this is just about Europe or the US. You are the one who brought up the claim about which country "having superior rape rate" in regard to gun ownership, I simply refuted your claim based on your cherry picked stats.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter

[mOgliE]

You were trying to argue that gun ownership has no effect on the rate of rape, and you left out Australia because it doesn't fit with your argument. No one but you claimed this is just about Europe or the US. You are the one who brought up the claim about which country "having superior rape rate" in regard to gun ownership, I simply refuted your claim based on your cherry picked stats.

No you're the one taking the EU vs USA part into the debate.

Allowing people to defend themselves would be madness, but allowing your wives, mothers, daughters, and sisters to be raped then executing the attacker isn't? Funny, aren't these things Europeans have been criticizing Americans about for years (ie the death penalty)?

Which is why I let Australia out (and the fact that I don't know much about Australia gun control policy).

And cherry picked stats... Really? So the fact that 26 countries out of 28 in the EU have lower rape rate is not a proof that gun ownership is not an effective way to reduce rape rate?


Can we talk how you're cherry picking the debate as a whole? You keep avoiding the difficult question and you don't prove your claims either:

He who claims proves, and your proof is not very compelling, especially considering how large and diverse the US is compared to these other countries.

EU has twice the population of USA, 28 times the legislation complexity, numerous different cultures and etcnics groups, dense history, more or less 25 different languages, and you just come here and caim that it's "not so much diversified, especially compared to the US".

Oh and you're also the one that claims that my "Marxist ideology will cause the doom of Europe" but of course when it's you there is no need to prove your claims.

marxists and socialists such as yourself will ensure Europe's speedy decline.

[eon89]

I'm not sure I understand. If the attacker fled the scene and hasn't been found, them who is charging her?
I mean the police wasn't there, otherwise she would not have had to use the pepper spray, which means they have no evidence.
What the hell is happening? Is this a joke? What's happening with the scandinavian countries? I hear only bad jokes from what happens there.

My question exactly.
Wouldn't this fall under a non-cognizable offence, where the victim has to file charges?
If the police couldn't protect her, they have no business filing charges.

Government exists today to punish/collect revenue from victimless criminals and protect victimful criminals from their victims.

Well yeah, of course. Agreed. It's like the police giving fines to motorists for all non-sense. But an underage girl was almost raped and she gets fined? What does that say about that country? And most importantly what will that do to that girl's self esteem?

[pungopete468]

It's a simple question about human rights. If you believe in human rights, you accept the necessity of self-defense. Without self-defense, there can be no human rights, only the illusion of them.

When a person employs the use of lethal force against an attacker, that attacker becomes unable to spread certain genetic deficiencies which poison the human genome affecting the quality of life for the future of humanity. It's a scientific fact, irrespective of what anybody believes, that every action or inaction will have a future consequence or reaction of some sort. It's already been established that a deficiency must be present to violently rape another person, no reasonable person would do it.

If you believe people are utterly incapable of determining when they need to defend themselves, then continue your gun control crusade. But if you believe you could identify an attack against yourself, and choose when it's reasonable to defend yourself, then gun control is an oppression on your ability to enact a dire need to defend yourself.

This is just so much bullshit it burns my eyes...

1/ No it's not a question of Human rights. The declaration of Human Rights says nothing about self defense but about security, and considering that violent crimes and rapes are more frequent in the USA than in Europe I'd say security is better here. It's a question of pros and cons of letting the people own killing machines nothing else!

2/ This utter bullshit implies that criminals have some perticular "crime genes" which is, not only stupid and not proved scientifically, but is also implying that being a criminal has nothing to do with your social status/condition/education but is all in your genes.

3/ Well go look at the number of deaths by firearms and massive killings in the USA and I'd say it's rather logical to assume that some people absolutely have no sense of control and it's far better to let the guns to the police.

Please attempt to keep this civilized, I'm not interested in dramatic episodes and name calling. If you're interested in an actual discussion, I'll oblige.

1. Human rights are an individual issue, every person is entitled to 100% of their share of human rights. As long as violent crimes and rapes occur, security is an individual effort. You're discounting the human rights of the victims by looking at the issue from a collective perspective. From the standpoint of a collective, some rate of violent crime is both expected, and acceptable. However, from the perspective of the individual, no rate of violent crime is acceptable, or expected, and these events directly affect the individual. I don't expect everyone to understand, there has been a tremendous level of propaganda targeted at minimizing the importance of the individual for years...

People are killing machines, bred through the fires of war, capable of immense destruction. Guns are a construct from the minds of man, and honestly they aren't nearly the most dangerous or insidious of those constructs. It's simply a coincidence that they are utilized in the commission of violent crimes...

2. I didn't say they have "crime genes" but studies have shown genetics to directly affect many contributing factors which lead to the commission of crimes. Impulse, attitude, disposition, compassion, cognitive processes; all affected by genetics. While external factors also affect the occurrence of crimes, genetics certainly plays a part in it. This is natural law, I'm sorry but you can't reasonably discount this fact any more than you could discount the existence of reality; no more than when a person claims to live in an imaginary world as a figment of their own dream, to an external body such assertions are baseless and the proof is self-evident...

3. I think humanity is plagued by people who refuse to see the problems for what they actually are. It's easy to see things on the surface, but more difficult to think critically and discover the roots of an issue. Even when a problem appears so obvious on its face, as with gun control; to propose a solution which doesn't address any of the underlying root causes will guarantee failure. Murder will exist, people are flawed, and police are people too. Balance in nature enables life, imbalance leads to extinction. Is it really the guns that bother you, or is it the murder? If it's the murder that bothers you, gun control isn't the solution...

Also, since America is clearly so full of guns; ask yourself, how many of the victims (without gang affiliation) were armed at the time when they were raped or murdered? Perhaps that should be included in statistical analysis...

That's an honest question which I feel is of significant importance to the question and the issue at hand...

[TECSHARE]

You were trying to argue that gun ownership has no effect on the rate of rape, and you left out Australia because it doesn't fit with your argument. No one but you claimed this is just about Europe or the US. You are the one who brought up the claim about which country "having superior rape rate" in regard to gun ownership, I simply refuted your claim based on your cherry picked stats.

No you're the one taking the EU vs USA part into the debate.(1)(4)

Allowing people to defend themselves would be madness, but allowing your wives, mothers, daughters, and sisters to be raped then executing the attacker isn't? Funny, aren't these things Europeans have been criticizing Americans about for years (ie the death penalty)?

Having the right to own guns doesn't really make anything against rapes you know? Otherwise USA wouldn't have a higher rape rate than most UE countries (except for Belgium and Sweden).
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate

This is me pointing out to ANOTHER PERSON from Europe that is ironic he is claiming the death penalty will stop rapes when Europeans have been critical of the death penalty in the USA for many years. Then shortly after you follow, making the original comparison between US and EU rates of rape statistics.

Allowing people to defend themselves would be madness, but allowing your wives, mothers, daughters, and sisters to be raped then executing the attacker isn't? Funny, aren't these things Europeans have been criticizing Americans about for years (ie the death penalty)?

Which is why I let Australia out (and the fact that I don't know much about Australia gun control policy). (3)

And cherry picked stats... Really? (4) So the fact that 26 countries out of 28 in the EU have lower rape rate is not a proof that gun ownership is not an effective way to reduce rape rate? (6)

I never claimed I could prove gun ownership reduced the rate of rapes, you did. He who claims proves. All I claimed is Sweden, Belgium, and Australia all are counter to your premise that gun ownership does not prevent rapes. Here is my exact quote below:

Yes, lets just ignore the fact that Sweden, Belgium, and Australia all have higher rates of rape in spite of having smaller populations and much stricter gun control laws or outright bans on gun ownership. I love that you still can't find your own sources as well and are still parroting the very statistics site I sourced to you previously when I attempted to debate gun control with you as you spouted your opinions over and over as if they were fact. BTW don't expect those rape stats to stay low for most of Europe this year and many following.

Can we talk how you're cherry picking the debate as a whole? You keep avoiding the difficult question and you don't prove your claims either (4):

He who claims proves, and your proof is not very compelling, especially considering how large and diverse the US is compared to these other countries.

EU has twice the population of USA, 28 times the legislation complexity, numerous different cultures and etcnics groups, dense history, more or less 25 different languages, and you just come here and caim that it's "not so much diversified, especially compared to the US".

Unfortunately all of Europe is not a country. Europe is a collection of countries all with different policies, laws, cultures, ethnic groups, population densities, taxes, and national budgets. Europe is subdivided into many smaller nations. The USA is ONE SINGLE NATION composed of more than 300 million people, all of them from different places all over the globe.

In France there are native French who all share a common culture. In Spain there are native Spanish that all share a common culture. In Sweden there are Swedish who all share a common culture. This provides for more cooperation and understanding within local communities that the USA does not share because it consists of one single, very large nation upon which it is illogical to impose laws which might otherwise be effective for your otherwise tiny and more culturally homogeneous nations. Of course this whole side topic itself is a strawman argument, but this time I actually did make this claim, so I felt I should defend it regardless of your fallacious diversionary tactics.




(1) https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
(2) https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon
(3) https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white
(4) https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque
(5) https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity
(6) https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

[panju1]

It is not very easy to compare the rate rapes in Europe with that in the United States. In the US, most of the rapes are reported, while in the European Union, that is not the case. The main reason is the difference in the quantum of punishment offered to the perpetrators. In the US, rapists will be jailed from 30 years to life without parole, while in countries such as Sweden, most of the rapists avoid jail time even if they are convicted.

Doesn't Sweden have one of the widest definitions of rape?
The allegations of rape against Julian Assange wouldn't qualify as rape in most other countries.
Why has he sought asylum from Ecuador?

[Jokot66]

In Ghana, there would be two kinds of reactions. Where did the rape take place? If it took place in the man's house, people would start asking what was the woman doing there in the first place. Some think the woman deserves it.
Others believe the perpetrator must be punished (25years jail term maximum).
There is however, the tendency to withdraw the matter from the law courts to be handled at home especially where the attacker is a 'big shot' or celebrity in society.

[Nudies Fluffer]

Pretty buggered up world we live in where a person cannot even defend themselves from a would be assailant without fear of punishment from the government. I feel bad for this girl, hopefully all the charges get dropped and she doesn't have lasting record from this nonsense.

[isvicre]

I honestly can't tell if you're being deeply sarcastic, or if this represents your actual opinion...

I wasn't being sarcastic, most people think the same here. I know it's quite hard to do but law system right now is fucked up. You can even get a case from self-defense, you become victim to guilty so fast. Sad but that's truth now.

[designerusa]

https://www.rt.com/news/330264-denmark-girl-rapist-fine/

A Danish teenager who said she was sexually assaulted now faces a fine for using pepper spray against her attacker. The man who pulled her to the ground and tried to undress her fled the scene without any charges.

The incident took place in the center of the small town of Sonderborg in southern Denmark at about 10 p.m. local time Wednesday. She told police that an English-speaking man knocked her to the ground, tried to unbutton her pants and undress her.

However, she was apparently able to protect herself as she pulled out pepper spray and used it against the man, who escaped the scene and hasn’t been charged.

****

Refugees welcome.

danish cops must be out of their mind... what did they suppose thet this teenage girl absolutely has right to protect herself against this evil person... they should find the suspect and give him a fair punisment not the victim..

[bryant.coleman]

It is not very easy to compare the rate rapes in Europe with that in the United States. In the US, most of the rapes are reported, while in the European Union, that is not the case. The main reason is the difference in the quantum of punishment offered to the perpetrators. In the US, rapists will be jailed from 30 years to life without parole, while in countries such as Sweden, most of the rapists avoid jail time even if they are convicted.

Ok that was plain opinion bullshit. You do realize that in most Europeans countries rape will be punished by at least 15 years of prison (if he surrendered to the police or in some borderlines cases with alchool involved for example) and it can go to lifetime jail in case of extremely violent rapes. Your claim is just plain bullshit and based on the fact that in Europe you don't go to jail until you're proven guilty. Sorry if we actually consider presomption of innocence a thing here...

Why don't you stop your verbal diarrhea and focus on the facts?

I request you to go through these articles:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/karin-wasteson/julian-assange-swedish-rape-law_b_1247247.html

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/193816/crime-and-non-punishment-sweden-bruce-bawer

Most of the rapists in Sweden are let off with either fines or community service. Less than 10% of them were sentenced to jail terms.

[Ernstew]

My opinion is that our old Europe which is dying now must asap to change laws for self protection and to allow defence with all resources. Where are human rights, where is state and institution that protect her citizens from insane people? Can you explan how is now allowed in USA womans to carry arms for selfrpotection and here not? Do you want to all insane people come to rape and assult your citizens?

[eon89]

Shouldn't there be two parts for a fine? Someone to complain and someone to be accused.
Where is the rapist to cry about his sprayed eyes? Am I wrong?

[acroman08]

this is just stupid!!! how a 17yo girl who protected herself from a sex attacker then gets arrested? i dont know how police work works in other countries, but this is plain stupid.

She was not arrested, she might maybe perhaps get a fine.
Police has nothing to do with that. What's stupid is that law forbidding to own a perfectly non lethal defense equipment.

I'm the first one to defend gun control policy. No citizen should own something lethal, but pepper spray will cause nothing more than a huge headache and crying like a baby! Why not allowing citizens to own one??? I'm pretty much sure it's even better than just fighting bare hands!

pepper spray can be lethat if the person you spray with it have an allergic reaction with the pepper spray, but thats unlikely to
happen. my point is it can be lethal.

[TheButterZone]

this is just stupid!!! how a 17yo girl who protected herself from a sex attacker then gets arrested? i dont know how police work works in other countries, but this is plain stupid.

She was not arrested, she might maybe perhaps get a fine.
Police has nothing to do with that. What's stupid is that law forbidding to own a perfectly non lethal defense equipment.

I'm the first one to defend gun control policy. No citizen should own something lethal, but pepper spray will cause nothing more than a huge headache and crying like a baby! Why not allowing citizens to own one??? I'm pretty much sure it's even better than just fighting bare hands!

pepper spray can be lethat if the person you spray with it have an allergic reaction with the pepper spray, but thats unlikely to
happen. my point is it can be lethal.

Being raped is morally superior to killing your intended rapist without malice aforethought. 

[acroman08]

this is just stupid!!! how a 17yo girl who protected herself from a sex attacker then gets arrested? i dont know how police work works in other countries, but this is plain stupid.

She was not arrested, she might maybe perhaps get a fine.
Police has nothing to do with that. What's stupid is that law forbidding to own a perfectly non lethal defense equipment.

I'm the first one to defend gun control policy. No citizen should own something lethal, but pepper spray will cause nothing more than a huge headache and crying like a baby! Why not allowing citizens to own one??? I'm pretty much sure it's even better than just fighting bare hands!

pepper spray can be lethat if the person you spray with it have an allergic reaction with the pepper spray, but thats unlikely to
happen. my point is it can be lethal.

Being raped is morally superior to killing your intended rapist without malice aforethought. 

i know that, and if i was being assaulted of being rape id probably kill/or crash his nuts off. but what im pointing out is that pepper spray can be lethal. and im not saying that being rape is not a big deal.