Asics are scam nothing will arrive and it will be the end of bitecoin

[yucca]

I think ASICs are the beginning of bitcoin being a serious system.

For a large entity with the agenda of overpowering the network, without ASIC the system is a cheap combination bike lock.

When all asics come on line the hashpower makes overpowering the chain much more challenging.

This will be reflected in bitcoins worth. what is worth more? a 4 barrel combination bike lock or a bank vault?

More hashpower means more security. worth of a storage facility is proportional to its security.

After the first genesis block was laid, when difficulty was 1, had you been privvy to the network you could have overpowered it with trivial computing power. Would you prefer it stay like that, just so you can mine easier?

Sorry but the needs of the network outweigh the needs of the nodes. There will come a point when mining is not profitable, but hashing transactions will be a steady earner.

[kokojie]

I think ASICs are the beginning of bitcoin being a serious system.

For a large entity with the agenda of overpowering the network, without ASIC the system is a cheap combination bike lock.

When all asics come on line the hashpower makes overpowering the chain much more challenging.

This will be reflected in bitcoins worth. what is worth more? a 4 barrel combination bike lock or a bank vault?

More hashpower means more security. worth of a storage facility is proportional to its security.

After the first genesis block was laid, when difficulty was 1, had you been privvy to the network you could have overpowered it with trivial computing power. Would you prefer it stay like that, just so you can mine easier?

Sorry but the needs of the network outweigh the needs of the nodes. There will come a point when mining is not profitable, but hashing transactions will be a steady earner.

much challenging how? surely the "large entity" can just order ASICs just the same as everyone else. In fact I think ASIC makes it easier (once they become readily available).

With GPU mining, if you wants to acquire a large amount of GPU in a short time, you have to compete with regular gamer demand, it's very difficult to do, as we have seen previously with all the top AMD GPUs sold out everywhere during the 2011 bubble.

With ASIC mining, the "large entity" only has to compete with other miners, or heck he could invest in building his own ASICs, it's very cheap to mass produce once the initial cost has been invested. If a 22 yr old Chinese guy from Brooklyn could do it in a few months, surely this "large entity" can build it too. Good luck with building your own GPU though.

This is why I think Litecoin's scrypt mining is superior, because ASIC for scrypt does not have as big an advantage over GPU due to large memory requirement, so GPU will remain viable to mine.

[DarkBet]

I'm saying the truth. Period.

hehe,  Mr. optimistic

[yucca]

I think ASICs are the beginning of bitcoin being a serious system.

For a large entity with the agenda of overpowering the network, without ASIC the system is a cheap combination bike lock.

When all asics come on line the hashpower makes overpowering the chain much more challenging.

This will be reflected in bitcoins worth. what is worth more? a 4 barrel combination bike lock or a bank vault?

More hashpower means more security. worth of a storage facility is proportional to its security.

After the first genesis block was laid, when difficulty was 1, had you been privvy to the network you could have overpowered it with trivial computing power. Would you prefer it stay like that, just so you can mine easier?

Sorry but the needs of the network outweigh the needs of the nodes. There will come a point when mining is not profitable, but hashing transactions will be a steady earner.

much challenging how? surely the "large entity" can just order ASICs just the same as everyone else. In fact I think ASIC makes it easier (once they become readily available).

With GPU mining, if you wants to acquire a large amount of GPU in a short time, you have to compete with regular gamer demand, it's very difficult to do, as we have seen previously with all the top AMD GPUs sold out everywhere during the 2011 bubble.

With ASIC mining, the "large entity" only has to compete with other miners, or heck he could invest in building his own ASICs, it's very cheap to mass produce once the initial cost has been invested. If a 22 yr old Chinese guy from Brooklyn could do it in a few months, surely this "large entity" can build it too. Good luck with building your own GPU though.

This is why I think Litecoin's scrypt mining is superior, because ASIC for scrypt does not have as big an advantage over GPU due to large memory requirement, so GPU will remain viable to mine.

ASIC will make botnets less viable for example.

But I agree litecoin can keep GPUs in the game for alot longer and is suited to GPU architecture. I have a feeling that $LTC$/BTC value is going to accelerate from here on out. But GPU mining will still be profitable on LTC for some time to come.

From litecoin.org:

It is unlikely for FPGA or ASIC mining to take over Litecoin until the currency is widely used.

I would change that quote to this though:

It is unlikely for FPGA or ASIC mining to take over Litecoin until it becomes profitable to do so.

Might happen sooner than you think?

[shivansps]

I dont known i have the feeling they are using ASIC pre-orders to build up the things but them using them instead of deliver, if i make a ASIC today why should i sell it? today it makes its own cost in less than a week.

[kokojie]

I think ASICs are the beginning of bitcoin being a serious system.

For a large entity with the agenda of overpowering the network, without ASIC the system is a cheap combination bike lock.

When all asics come on line the hashpower makes overpowering the chain much more challenging.

This will be reflected in bitcoins worth. what is worth more? a 4 barrel combination bike lock or a bank vault?

More hashpower means more security. worth of a storage facility is proportional to its security.

After the first genesis block was laid, when difficulty was 1, had you been privvy to the network you could have overpowered it with trivial computing power. Would you prefer it stay like that, just so you can mine easier?

Sorry but the needs of the network outweigh the needs of the nodes. There will come a point when mining is not profitable, but hashing transactions will be a steady earner.

much challenging how? surely the "large entity" can just order ASICs just the same as everyone else. In fact I think ASIC makes it easier (once they become readily available).

With GPU mining, if you wants to acquire a large amount of GPU in a short time, you have to compete with regular gamer demand, it's very difficult to do, as we have seen previously with all the top AMD GPUs sold out everywhere during the 2011 bubble.

With ASIC mining, the "large entity" only has to compete with other miners, or heck he could invest in building his own ASICs, it's very cheap to mass produce once the initial cost has been invested. If a 22 yr old Chinese guy from Brooklyn could do it in a few months, surely this "large entity" can build it too. Good luck with building your own GPU though.

This is why I think Litecoin's scrypt mining is superior, because ASIC for scrypt does not have as big an advantage over GPU due to large memory requirement, so GPU will remain viable to mine.

ASIC will make botnets less viable for example.

But I agree litecoin can keep GPUs in the game for alot longer and is suited to GPU architecture. I have a feeling that $LTC$/BTC value is going to accelerate from here on out. But GPU mining will still be profitable on LTC for some time to come.

From litecoin.org:

It is unlikely for FPGA or ASIC mining to take over Litecoin until the currency is widely used.

I would change that quote to this though:

It is unlikely for FPGA or ASIC mining to take over Litecoin until it becomes profitable to do so.

Might happen sooner than you think?

Sure ASIC are possible for scrypt mining, but it does not have as big of an advantage, due to huge memory requirement, it'll mostly just be more power efficient, while costing roughly 1/3 or 1/4 of GPU per MHash. Those who mine with GPU on a free electricity basis will continue be able to profitably do so, with very reasonable ROI time frame.

[mokahless]

For a large entity with the agenda of overpowering the network, without ASIC the system is a cheap combination bike lock.
When all asics come on line the hashpower makes overpowering the chain much more challenging.
This will be reflected in bitcoins worth. what is worth more? a 4 barrel combination bike lock or a bank vault?
More hashpower means more security. worth of a storage facility is proportional to its security.

After the first genesis block was laid, when difficulty was 1, had you been privvy to the network you could have overpowered it with trivial computing power. Would you prefer it stay like that, just so you can mine easier?

I disagree. The only reason this has been true in the past is because a relatively large portion of people involved with Bitcoin at the moment are involved in mining or investments in mining. The average user of the future wouldn't know anything about the security of the Bitcoin network. How many people who do online banking know what https or a public and private keypair are?
We are not talking about the worth of a storage facility when we are talking about Bitcoin as it becomes mainstream. We are talking about the worth of a currency.

[yucca]

For a large entity with the agenda of overpowering the network, without ASIC the system is a cheap combination bike lock.
When all asics come on line the hashpower makes overpowering the chain much more challenging.
This will be reflected in bitcoins worth. what is worth more? a 4 barrel combination bike lock or a bank vault?
More hashpower means more security. worth of a storage facility is proportional to its security.

After the first genesis block was laid, when difficulty was 1, had you been privvy to the network you could have overpowered it with trivial computing power. Would you prefer it stay like that, just so you can mine easier?

I disagree. The only reason this has been true in the past is because a relatively large portion of people involved with Bitcoin at the moment are involved in mining or investments in mining. The average user of the future wouldn't know anything about the security of the Bitcoin network. How many people who do online banking know what https or a public and private keypair are?
We are not talking about the worth of a storage facility when we are talking about Bitcoin as it becomes mainstream. We are talking about the worth of a currency.

So you disagree with this?:

Any E-Currency that is easy to crack is doomed to fail.

Mainstream joe public has little to do with anything. They are just consumers who will only shape the interface as producers try to please them.

Large growth will be garnered by large vendors getting on board, granted the CEOs of these companies may not be computer whizzes or know anything about cryptography but they have employees and freelance advisors who are cold and objective and VERY good at math like Spock.

BTC is a fungible asset based on proof of work, ecenomically it is identical to gold; Imagine if somebody worked out a way to quantumly lock onto gold atoms within 1000m and teleport them into the back of their van lab. Word spreads and gold funneling vans are zipping around everywhere. do you not think this softened security would undermine golds value as an asset? I think you'll find it would! Even if all the gold bugs knew nothing about the details of quantum teleportation.

The fundamental worth of any currency is ONLY related to its ease of use (liquidity) and its security.

Of course fiat currency, does not abide by these fair laws, it has its own set of laws that are enforced by its issuers and accepted by its users. So maybe you're still thinking with a fiat mindset? Fiat currency is only as secure as a few people choose it to be, with quantitive easing a handful of big-wigs can inflate the currency at the push of a button as and when they please, that's pretty dodgy when you think about it.

[redmist]

To be honest, I don't really want the ASIC's to arrive. When they do, gpu miners are gonna lose out big time. And people who can't afford an ASIC aren't gonna have enough hash rate to compete

[DrG]

To be honest, I don't really want the ASIC's to arrive. When they do, gpu miners are gonna lose out big time. And people who can't afford an ASIC aren't gonna have enough hash rate to compete

Yes the GPU days will be over, but it doesn't exclude the little guy.  In fact it's a lot easier to grab a $150 Jalapeno (assuming it comes to fruition) and just plug it into a USB port than it is to try to setup CGMiner with all the correct flags and worry about temps (I'm talking for a layman).  For those who have $ and are into running GPU farms there's always the possibility of custom modding he ASIC units in the future.

Don't tell me people are "mining" with their 5450 GPU which costs $50 and don't have $150 for a jalapeno (or whatever low end device any manufacturer may put out).

[redmist]

To be honest, I don't really want the ASIC's to arrive. When they do, gpu miners are gonna lose out big time. And people who can't afford an ASIC aren't gonna have enough hash rate to compete

Yes the GPU days will be over, but it doesn't exclude the little guy.  In fact it's a lot easier to grab a $150 Jalapeno (assuming it comes to fruition) and just plug it into a USB port than it is to try to setup CGMiner with all the correct flags and worry about temps (I'm talking for a layman).  For those who have $ and are into running GPU farms there's always the possibility of custom modding he ASIC units in the future.

Don't tell me people are "mining" with their 5450 GPU which costs $50 and don't have $150 for a jalapeno (or whatever low end device any manufacturer may put out).

But apparently there's already 20k preorders on Butterfly Labs, so even with a jalapeno I'm not entirely sure it would be worth it. The difficulty is going to increase so much if the ASIC's arrive, and I honestly believe a single Jalepeno will be enough. But oh well, I guess it's better than nothing

[cancis]

I had a personal interest in BFL being the real deal, and personally went through the trouble of vetting them - including verifying arrival of shipments and the identity of lead individuals involved.

They seem to be legitimate.


Exhibit A.
https://i.imgur.com/hD8Ox36.jpg

[mokahless]

For a large entity with the agenda of overpowering the network, without ASIC the system is a cheap combination bike lock.
When all asics come on line the hashpower makes overpowering the chain much more challenging.
This will be reflected in bitcoins worth. what is worth more? a 4 barrel combination bike lock or a bank vault?
More hashpower means more security. worth of a storage facility is proportional to its security.

After the first genesis block was laid, when difficulty was 1, had you been privvy to the network you could have overpowered it with trivial computing power. Would you prefer it stay like that, just so you can mine easier?

I disagree. The only reason this has been true in the past is because a relatively large portion of people involved with Bitcoin at the moment are involved in mining or investments in mining. The average user of the future wouldn't know anything about the security of the Bitcoin network. How many people who do online banking know what https or a public and private keypair are?
We are not talking about the worth of a storage facility when we are talking about Bitcoin as it becomes mainstream. We are talking about the worth of a currency.

So you disagree with this?:
Any E-Currency that is easy to crack is doomed to fail.
Mainstream joe public has little to do with anything. They are just consumers who will only shape the interface as producers try to please them.
Large growth will be garnered by large vendors getting on board, granted the CEOs of these companies may not be computer whizzes or know anything about cryptography but they have employees and freelance advisors who are cold and objective and VERY good at math like Spock.
BTC is a fungible asset based on proof of work, ecenomically it is identical to gold; Imagine if somebody worked out a way to quantumly lock onto gold atoms within 1000m and teleport them into the back of their van lab. Word spreads and gold funneling vans are zipping around everywhere. do you not think this softened security would undermine golds value as an asset? I think you'll find it would! Even if all the gold bugs knew nothing about the details of quantum teleportation.
The fundamental worth of any currency is ONLY related to its ease of use (liquidity) and its security.
Of course fiat currency, does not abide by these fair laws, it has its own set of laws that are enforced by its issuers and accepted by its users. So maybe you're still thinking with a fiat mindset? Fiat currency is only as secure as a few people choose it to be, with quantitive easing a handful of big-wigs can inflate the currency at the push of a button as and when they please, that's pretty dodgy when you think about it.

Um, no?
Your examples seem to be arguing against something else other than what I have said.

What I disagree with is the idea that Bitcoin will be valued directly based on its security more because "the hashrate is higher". It has proven to be secure and continues to do so. If it was proven insecure before but then goes on to be proven secure for a year, that would be a different story. I am arguing against the idea that a massive increase in hashpower will directly increase the value of a Bitcoin.
Changing your public/ private keys on your bank's website from 2048 to 8192 is not going to get more customers.

Never, ever did I say if Bitcoin were to lose its prowess in security would it then continue to be successful.

If Bitcoin's security is proven ineffective --> price will drop significantly.
If Bitcoin suffers no security issues        --> price may go up due to other factors
If Bitcoin hashrate increases                 --> price will not go up because of this.

In the second underline, you are forgetting about supply and demand, which is a significant factor in Bitcoin specifically due to the few and growing users and the fixed supply. A simple news article can cause large changes in price that would not be true for USD.

[gogxmagog]

IF BFL is a scam...which they are starting to look A LOT like... not only are quite a few of you OUT significant monies.... BUT bitcoin gets a major BLACK EYE. You will notice there is a little press around BTC... it is a novelty...a curiosity (as far as the mainstream press is concerned) not hugely newsworthy... UNTIL something goes wrong. And I'm not talking about technical bugs that are only understood by geeks, I mean human interest news stories like "Bitcoin Fraudsters bunk users of millions in Fake BTC mining scam" which grabs the interest of many many news readers. Not to mention the schadenfraud (sp?) or sadistic pleasure that non-investors get when they see us early adopters get stung.

If BFL is full of shit, it will hurt BTC's overall credibility and could prevent it from gaining widespread adoption. If they aren't its business as usual, but IF they are scamming... WE, the honest BTC community, should do something about it. Aren't most of you guys knowledgable about hacking? couldn't you "punish" josh and co.? if they prove to be bullshit?

just sayin....

[Surpbitcoin]

Never heard of 'bitecoin'? Do you eat them?

They are so yummy.

HAHAHAHAHAH! +1

[luckyindia]

BFL has delayed but NOT DENIED....To  deliver a  perfect MINING ASIC SYSTEM is not a joke. ASIC  is not a Scam......it will BOOST BITCOIN....The strong system of CHEKS & BALANCES by increasing the difficulty rate can stabilise and overcome any GIGANTIC COMPUTATIONAL NODE

[vvic]

Asics are scam nothing will arrive and it will be the end of bitecoin I'm saying the truth. Period.

[mr_random]

To be honest, I don't really want the ASIC's to arrive. When they do, gpu miners are gonna lose out big time. And people who can't afford an ASIC aren't gonna have enough hash rate to compete

Miners can just switch to Litecoin. It's more profitable than Bitcoin to mine anyway + it's hashing algorithm is Scrypt which has no currently known way to be parallel computed (ie any asics or fgpas that do eventually come out for it can only have a minimal advantage). Check out btc-e.com to see the exchange rate for Litecoin, or see the profitability on dustcoin.com

[Jutarul]

it's hashing algorithm is Scrypt which has no currently known way to be parallel computed

This makes it a security hazard. The cryptographic strength has to lie with the key, not the algorithm. Anybody with a slight understanding of cryptology will confirm this.

[dust]

it's hashing algorithm is Scrypt which has no currently known way to be parallel computed

This isn't true.  GPUs and even multi-core CPUs parallelize Litecoin mining.

(ie any asics or fgpas that do eventually come out for it can only have a minimal advantage).

This isn't true either.  Scrypt ASIC and FPGA design is more complex and expensive than SHA-256 hardware design, and the memory requirements would increase costs, but dedicated hardware will always offer significant  efficiency advantages over general purpose hardware for embarrassingly parallelizable tasks.  People used to think that GPU mining Litecoin would not be viable.