[POLL] Should we recommend that noobs use an alternative client?

[flatfly]

. . . They want a piece of software that allows them to send and receive Bitcoins . . .

No I think the noobies that have a hard time with waiting, are in denial that they are serious about bitcoin.

Who said anything about being "serious about bitcoin?"  SgtSpike seems to be talking about people who just heard about bitcoin, and want to try it out.  They have no idea if they want to be "serious" about it yet, they don't know much about it and have very little exposure to it.  At best they want to purchase something and the seller/merchant has indicated that they are willing to (or prefer to) accept bitcoin for payment.

If the "new user" can't quickly and easily accomplish the the transaction to gain exposure to the process, they'll never get to the point of learning enough about it to see the significant benefits it offers and become "serious" about it.

Thank you, yes, this is exactly what I mean.

When I first got into Bitcoin, I wasn't at all serious about it.  I was trying out this new mining thing that had the potential to make me money, and it was intimidating (setting up QT and mining).  I can only imagine what a non-technically minded person might be thinking as they go through the cumbersome process of attempting to run QT, especially now that it takes days instead of hours to download and sync.

@gweedo, 99% of newbies aren't serious about Bitcoin.  Why do you insist that they should be pushed away?

You guys don't even understand bitcoin and where the development is at, bitcoin network is in beta, if people aren't serious or don't believe in it they shouldn't be around it. Give them the testnet to "play" with. Honestly everyone complaints about it taking so long to download, should just quit bitcoin, they obviously don't have the time to dedicate to learning about it or patients to use it.

Then bitcoin.org should be much more straightforward about that before showing ANY download links.  How about a simple choice in BIG typeface on the homepage, such as:

Do you intend to use Bitcoin as a regular user or do you want to run you own node (powerful computer required / setup typically takes 48h+ / NOT recommended for most laptops)?

Regular user: offer links to Electrum, Multibit, and Blockchain.info

Full node user: offer links to Qt / bitcoind  (+ optionally, Armory for extra security and deterministic wallets)

[BasementMiner!]

From a long time user of the official Bitcoin client, I switched a while ago to blockchain.info's web wallet.

I find it much appealing not having to deal with long blockchain download times and the low entry barrier needed to use Bitcoin.

[SgtSpike]

You guys don't even understand bitcoin and where the development is at, bitcoin network is in beta, if people aren't serious or don't believe in it they shouldn't be around it. Give them the testnet to "play" with. Honestly everyone complaints about it taking so long to download, should just quit bitcoin, they obviously don't have the time to dedicate to learning about it or patients to use it.

So what if it's a beta?  That means zilch with regards to increasing usability to the average end user.  The average end user can't be expected to download the full blockchain, doesn't need to care about running a full node, and shouldn't have to have patience to use it.  It's like you're looking innovation straight in the eye while it is laying on the ground bleeding to death, then giving a solid right-hander to the jaw-bone.  Why?  Just, why?

I don't understand why you want so few people to use Bitcoin.  Most people around here would really like more people to use it, but you seem insistent upon pushing everyone but the geekiest away.  If your argument is that Bitcoin isn't ready for the masses, my argument is, lets work on making it ready for the masses!  A good first step is not recommending that they spend 3 days syncing up the full blockchain...

Hmmm... must be a while since you last tried it! Currently, there are no pre-requisites for Python runtimes or special command-line stuff - both Windows builds (whether slush's or mine) are 100% self-contained and run out of the box.  Perhaps time to give it another try?

I'll post up the error screenshots when I get a chance.  This is the text that confused me:

Install PyQt4
Install Electrum-1.5.8.zip
execute 'python electrum'

Since the executable was throwing me errors, I thought I might have to follow those instructions (which obviously didn't help!).

Um, it was late at night...

Then bitcoin.org should be much more straightforward about that before showing ANY download links.  How about a simple choice in BIG typeface on the homepage, such as:

Do you intend to use Bitcoin as a regular user or do you want to run you own node (requires powerful computer / setup typically takes 48h+ / NOT recommended for most laptops)?

Regular user: offer links to Electrum, Multibit, and Blockchain.info

Full node user: offer links to Qt / bitcoind  (+ optionally, Armory for extra security)

Completely agree.

[DannyHamilton]

You guys don't even understand bitcoin and where the development is at, bitcoin network is in beta, if people aren't serious or don't believe in it they shouldn't be around it. Give them the testnet to "play" with. Honestly everyone complaints about it taking so long to download, should just quit bitcoin, they obviously don't have the time to dedicate to learning about it or patients to use it.

You clearly aren't going to see things my way no matter what I say, and I can assure you that I'm not going to see things your way no matter what you say.  No sense in discussing this any further.  Difference is, my way of seeing it reflects the reality of the world.  New users who aren't serious about bitcoin are going to continue to "try it out" regardless of whether you want them to or not.  I'm ok with this reality, you are welcome to keep wishing that they wouldn't if that is what you want to do.

[grantbdev]

Short answer: Yes.

The initial blockchain download is just too long for a person who may only try it once. I personally like Electrum, but I think a lot of people are restricted to iPhones and have to use a web wallet.

[Walter Rothbard]

coinapult for new, casual users.  It can be driven from a cellphone, and the users don't have to handle the bitcoins and bitcoin addresses themselves.

[bittenbob]

I didn't see an Android app for your web wallet. Is it possible to read QR codes through a mobile web app?

With HTML 5 you can absolutely scan QR codes. Any HTML5 enabled phone can take pictures of QR codes using WalletBit Mobile. Opera on Android works the best actually framing your camera on screen.

Maybe we should move our "One Wallet. Every Platform" logo to the front page.

[furrycoat]

I chose web based clients. I truly think those are the easiest and most simple for newbies. Plus no downloading the chain block which takes WAY to long in my opinion.

[imanikin]

I am sorry to have to say that i wouldn't recommend any client, because they are still not ready for the average new user i meet, and the stagnant exchange rates reflect that. Reminds me of the Russian fable about the pike, crawfish and swan, where all are going in different directions trying to accomplish the same thing:




The whole process is still way too much of an uncertain, expensive hassle, despite all the hype and promotion. 

I recommend paper wallets to new users for any B they want to keep long-term. For spending, i recommend they just use the Blockchain online wallet, which they recharge as needed through Localbitcoins or Coinbase, or whatever is in their region of the world.

(We can't afford another Mybitcoin disaster. As far as i am concerned, Tom Williams could be behind any of the current online wallets too, because he got away with the Mybitcoin scam perfectly, and could do it again with minor changes. So could other scammers...)





 

[Nagato]

It is inevitable that majority of "users" in future will run some sort of thin client or web client.
If you envision spending on the go, a light/web client is your only choice.

As long as the amounts stored on the web/thin client are small enough to cater for daily transactions,
it is perfectly fine. Im not sure about US, but here in asia most daily transactions for meals, small purchases
are still largely done with cash. I carry about a weeks worth of spending in my wallet as cash.
I top it up from the ATM when its running low.

If i lose my wallet, its bearable.

The people who will HAVE to run the full client are miners and business owners who receive large/numerous
transactions. Which is no big deal for any business(big or small) really.
Ultimately it is the miners who run the network, they decide whether a transaction is valid or is spent.
As long as they run a full node(they have to, to avoid forming invalid blocks) and there are numerous miners around the world,
the network is on sound footing.

[novusordo]

u forgot Armory... sad

I certainly didn't. I love Armory, but recommending that newbies use it would be rather stupid, so I didn't include it in the poll.

[novusordo]

u forgot Armory... sad

I certainly didn't. I love Armory, but recommending that newbies use it would be rather stupid, so I didn't include it in the poll.

If I was a newbie, I would be disappointed if the person introducing me to Bitcoin didn't mention Armory.

Also, Armory is quite easy to use considering it's powerful features!

You're probably more technically inclined than my definition of "newbie."

[tvbcof]

Newbies who don't have the technical skills to understand the reference client (or better yet, plain old bitcoind) and why it acts as it does should not be encouraged to do anything with Bitcoin period.

For a vast majority of people in this world, Bitcoin is not good for them and they are not good for Bitcoin at this time.

Hopefully over time the system will mature and become more solid, and there will be more means by which good/bad actors in the community can be identified.   Then Bitcoin will be more appropriate for more people.

[tvbcof]

Newbies who don't have the technical skills to understand the reference client (or better yet, plain old bitcoind) and why it acts as it does should not be encouraged to do anything with Bitcoin period.

For a vast majority of people in this world, Bitcoin is not good for them and they are not good for Bitcoin at this time.

Hopefully over time the system will mature and become more solid, and there will be more means by which good/bad actors in the community can be identified.   Then Bitcoin will be more appropriate for more people.

I disagree. All the non-technical need is someone to help them with the technical side.

If someone is interested in the economics of Bitcoin, but doesn't have the technical know-how to set up and secure a wallet, I'm sure there are plenty here who would be willing to help them out. Actually, I've seen many threads doing exactly this. I have asked for technical help countless times and I wouldn't consider myself bad for Bitcoin.

Identifying good/bad actors in the community is an entirely separate issue from the technical one. I'm a bit confused whether or not you are lumping them together as one. One could easily be a brilliant coder and poor judge of character at the same time! Luckily there is an even easier solution to this problem, trust no one. If the exchange involves trust, don't do it.

If newbie shows interest, listen to what they have to say, answer their questions, and try to find out why they want to use Bitcoin. They don't need any special skill sets, just a bit of patience, common sense, and someone willing to point them in the right direction.

The point you make about inappropriately co-mingling the technical and social aspects is a good one.  Although there is probably a correlation between technically savvy persons and those who can recognize a social engineering scam, it is small enough such that I should not have done this to the extent that I did.

I think that it has done Bitcoin no small amount of damage to have had to many people who can be suckered into one scam or another, and this has naturally brought the scammers out in force.  Leveraging what slight correlation there might be between technically savvy people and those who have the mental equipment to avoid scams is worth something.

Bitcoin is, I believe, well enough established at this point that it's not going anywhere.  Thus, there should not need to be a strong incentive to 'recruit' and/or 'evangelize' without discrimination.  That is the main point I would like to make, and something I imagine that most of the community will disagree with.

I do applaud the efforts you yourself any anyone else who takes the time help those who are legitimately interested in Bitcoin.  For every technically skilled person who would fall for a scam there is a non-technically skilled person who would not, and a certain number of these will likely have a keen understanding of economics and monetary science (and/or strong feelings about liberty-ish stuff.)  These (rare) people are who I'd like to see diving in to Bitcoin at this juncture and are the one's to focus on helping.

[darkmule]

As much of a turnoff as a lengthy download may be, losing all your BTC to some web-based scam would be an even bigger turnoff. 

That Bitcoin-QT has its inconveniences should be explained, but that the more convenient online wallets carry serious risks of loss that a noob is unlikely to be able to evaluate in an informed fashion.

Then people can decide on their own.  If someone just wants to play around with 1 BTC or so, they can probably take the risk of an online wallet, but if they want to put substantial money in play, they're probably best using an offline wallet and taking other security measures.  Offline storage, with backup, is still the best way to go for real security.

I'd personally recommend Coinbase of the online wallets, but a noob reading a bunch of recommendations and personal preferences from random people isn't going to be able to evaluate my opinion, decide if I'm on crack, and for that matter, even I am unaware of how Coinbase's track record will look in a year or two.  For that matter, they could be lying about every security precaution they supposedly take, and just be another Ponzi (although enough is known about the principals it seems unlikely).

In short, I don't think "we," whoever "we" are, can just recommend some alternative to a "real" Bitcoin client without noting that there are serious caveats and flaws to such alternatives that may very well outweigh their increased convenience.

Everyone really has to decide their own risk tolerance.

[MysteryMiner]

Should we recommend that noobs use an alternative client?

We should recommend noobs to stay away from computers completely!

[K1773R]

Should we recommend that noobs use an alternative client?

We should recommend noobs to stay away from computers completely!

signed

[furrycoat]

Should we recommend that noobs use an alternative client?

We should recommend noobs to stay away from computers completely!

signed

+1000

+100000

[trudi]

hell even https://bitcoin-app.com/

Ohh .. bad timing.

Closing on 4th of Feb 2013! Withdraw all your coins!

- https://bitcoin-app.com   <--  Facebook wallet.

Just in case anybody is interested to continue this:  write me a pm. Domain + project is for sale for almost nothing..

[tvbcof]

...
I agree completely, there is no need to recruit or evangelize. My thoughts were concerned with the newbies who come to us on their own. I guess when I read "should not be encouraged" from your earlier post, I thought "should be dissuaded" when you meant "should not be recruited".

I was engaging in a bit of hyperbole (aka, trolling mildly) in my OP on this subject.  Your adjustment captures my true feeling better.

In actual fact, I have described the system to certain of my highly technically inclined friends and suggested that a modest (pocket change) speculative move into it has some logic.  For people I truly care about (i.e., family) I have suggested they NOT play with it, but some of the BTC I hold is earmarked for them in the event that it continues it's trajectory which over the last year I view as reasonably healthy.

To my surprise, nobody I know personally has been fascination by Bitcoin from a philosophical level.  I'm surprised mostly because I have friends from all over the spectrum in terms of their interests, abilities, etc.  Most people do seem to have a sub-conscious trust in our state sanctioned monetary regimes.  I'm pretty sure that at some point this trust will prove to have been mis-placed.