A foundation with 80% of the coins can never work.

[smoothie]

Why couldn't it be 99.999% instead of 80%?

Because we want some coins to enter the system bottom-up as well, and mining subsidy is currently the best way to do that.

Maaku,

Would you give up 80% of your wages to a stranger?

No? Then don't expect miners to give you 80% of their earnings when they could mine something else and keep 100%.


Your message that miners should trust some faceless, and inevitably corrupt, foundation with their earnings more than they should trust themselves is delusional. You have fallen to uncontrolled greed.

+1

[1714612492]

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[Impaler]

This is ridiculous, if you want to make use of the miners, please pay a reasonable price according to the current BTC/LTC/etc. mining cost. For example, establish an exchange website and buy/sell your FRC at a reasonable price (in BTC/USD/LTC, as your choice) to distribute your centralized currency or buy/accumulate your FRC from the miners! This is a fair/reasonable way for your purpose, otherwise, it's definitely doom to failure.

The BTC/LTC model is not 'reasonable' it is simply 'normal', non-miners find it highly UN-reasonable.  Also it is not a 'price' it is a percentage of something that has a completely indeterminate and variable value (a price would be paying per GH), as mining is a self correcting business in which hash rate competition always drives the miners profits down to near zero anyways the result is that any percentage can be just as profitable for miners, by giving less then 100% to miners Freicoin is simply 'buying' less hashing power then earlier coins.

[ElectricMucus]

This is ridiculous, if you want to make use of the miners, please pay a reasonable price according to the current BTC/LTC/etc. mining cost. For example, establish an exchange website and buy/sell your FRC at a reasonable price (in BTC/USD/LTC, as your choice) to distribute your centralized currency or buy/accumulate your FRC from the miners! This is a fair/reasonable way for your purpose, otherwise, it's definitely doom to failure.

by giving less then 100% to miners Freicoin is simply 'buying' less hashing power then earlier coins.

ok then who is Freicoin?

If you calling it whoever is to be supplied by the "Foundation" you fail. At the moment it doesn't even exist and we have not seen any suggestion on how the distribution will be facilitated.
The whole concept fails at one key point: Justification of Authority.


Even if the motives are totally noble like you claim, eventually it will succumb to corruption and yield exactly the problems we currently have in politics and finance:
"Friends" looking out for each other, sitting on the key resources and dominating the masses.
But most likely Freicoin will not even get this far if it isn't overtaken by more sane individuals which force out the 80% tax it will die out in irrelevance like any other coin which was created with unjustified distribution of wealth.

You ask: How much of unjustified distribution is acceptable?
My answer: 0%

[galambo]

But most likely Freicoin will not even get this far if it isn't overtaken by more sane individuals which force out the 80% tax it will die out in irrelevance like any other coin which was created with unjustified distribution of wealth.

This will happen from the demurrage. No force is required. The influence of the Foundation is designed to wane.

[ElectricMucus]

But most likely Freicoin will not even get this far if it isn't overtaken by more sane individuals which force out the 80% tax it will die out in irrelevance like any other coin which was created with unjustified distribution of wealth.

This will happen from the demurrage. No force is required. The influence of the Foundation is designed to wane.

Every single coin where the creators reserved a substantial part of the currency for themselves died before it became relevant.
This is no different.

[galambo]

But most likely Freicoin will not even get this far if it isn't overtaken by more sane individuals which force out the 80% tax it will die out in irrelevance like any other coin which was created with unjustified distribution of wealth.

This will happen from the demurrage. No force is required. The influence of the Foundation is designed to wane.

That you cannot say for certain since we haven't had any coins with demurrage already. I for once am very interested in the concept and would like to try it out in a sane manner.
But every single coin where the creators reserved a substantial part of the currency for themselves died.

Uhm, the demurrage works, Electricmucus. I can say that with absolute certainty that all of my coins are slowly destroying themselves you can watch it tick down inside the client every time a block comes in. You have to look down quite a few decimal points, however.

[ElectricMucus]

You are trying to distract from the key points here, I already explained that the portion of wealth to be distributed by the foundation would remain relevant for a very long time. Much longer than the time attributed by the 3 year period. As a rule of thumb since 5% annual demurrage yields a 15 year half life the amount would still be roughly 40% by then. Even after 100 years that would still be roughly 0.6%.

[galambo]

You are trying to distract from the key points here, I already explained that the portion of wealth to be distributed by the foundation would remain relevant for a very long time. Much longer than the time attributed by the 3 year period. As a rule of thumb since 5% annual demurrage yields a 15 year half life the amount would still be roughly 40% by then. Even after 100 years that would still be roughly 0.6%.

I understand what you're saying if the Foundation was going to hold onto the coins that long, but by 15 years the coins should have hopefully circulated so much that your concern is not so big? Do you disagree?

[drakahn]

You are trying to distract from the key points here, I already explained that the portion of wealth to be distributed by the foundation would remain relevant for a very long time. Much longer than the time attributed by the 3 year period. As a rule of thumb since 5% annual demurrage yields a 15 year half life the amount would still be roughly 40% by then. Even after 100 years that would still be roughly 0.6%.

I understand what you're saying if the Foundation was going to hold onto the coins that long, but by 15 years the coins should have hopefully circulated so much that your concern is not so big? Do you disagree?

"hopefully" lol

[ElectricMucus]

You are trying to distract from the key points here, I already explained that the portion of wealth to be distributed by the foundation would remain relevant for a very long time. Much longer than the time attributed by the 3 year period. As a rule of thumb since 5% annual demurrage yields a 15 year half life the amount would still be roughly 40% by then. Even after 100 years that would still be roughly 0.6%.

I understand what you're saying if the Foundation was going to hold onto the coins that long, but by 15 years the coins should have hopefully circulated so much that your concern is not so big? Do you disagree?

It is my opinion that those coins being circulated isn't justifiable in the first place.
And no, if you observe crony capitalism the wealth tends to be constricted to the core group for extended periods.

Even worse in contrast to other approaches you actually endorse the building of cronyism since any individual willing joining the foundation would be interested in a system where wealth is distributed in this fashion.

"hopefully" lol

 

[galambo]

It is my opinion that those coins being circulated isn't justifiable in the first place.

"Sorry you don't like the Freicoin."

[ElectricMucus]

It is my opinion that those coins being circulated isn't justifiable in the first place.

"Sorry you don't like the Freicoin."

I do please send me 100,000 FRC to 16LRPJraqhGHuiyScwDhogbn7yRMcqVi1j

signed the above line:
H9FmgZ04gW2bs37srVO1ueKIyGqEgIKVfxCYdTwNpprxtJeU7mrLEQ+uv2UC1ZJDsflpiBU2p2q/VHhlKR5gITg=

[nethead]

It is my opinion that those coins being circulated isn't justifiable in the first place.

"Sorry you don't like the Freicoin."

I do please send me 100,000 FRC. I will create an address and sign the request when you tell me the coins are ready.

It would be best to distribute those 7mil coins they got between the miners and destroy the 80%
Then people will come back to this coin.

[galambo]

It is my opinion that those coins being circulated isn't justifiable in the first place.

"Sorry you don't like the Freicoin."

I do please send me 100,000 FRC to 16LRPJraqhGHuiyScwDhogbn7yRMcqVi1j

signed the above line:
H9FmgZ04gW2bs37srVO1ueKIyGqEgIKVfxCYdTwNpprxtJeU7mrLEQ+uv2UC1ZJDsflpiBU2p2q/VHhlKR5gITg=

"I do like the Freicoin." - ElectricMucus

I'll print that out and carry it in my pocket. It will give me strength.

[smoothie]

Perhaps MAAKU should make a FRC faucet that distributes 10,000 FRC at a time. That would give better distribution than the model he is using. lol

[ElectricMucus]

But only if you do it on Fridays.

And you have to eat at least one hot dog afterwards and acknowledge myself as a discordian pope.

[maaku]

Maaku,

Would you give up 80% of your wages to a stranger?

No? Then don't expect miners to give you 80% of their earnings when they could mine something else and keep 100%.


Your message that miners should trust some faceless, and inevitably corrupt, foundation with their earnings more than they should trust themselves is delusional. You have fallen to uncontrolled greed.

Those coins were never the miner's to begin with. Why do you feel entitled to them?

[smoothie]

Maaku,

Would you give up 80% of your wages to a stranger?

No? Then don't expect miners to give you 80% of their earnings when they could mine something else and keep 100%.


Your message that miners should trust some faceless, and inevitably corrupt, foundation with their earnings more than they should trust themselves is delusional. You have fallen to uncontrolled greed.

Those coins were never the miner's to begin with. Why do you feel entitled to them?

Who do they "belong" to?

Look I can create 1 billion smoothie coins look...

1,000,000,000 smoothie coins

They don't necessary belong to me if I want others to use them.

[Nolo]

I love the idea of Freicoin, and I don't hate the whole idea of a tax, as long as it is taxation with representation.  

[Impaler]

Taxes are percentages of someones income, a business profits, or a percentage of a sale.  Foundation funds come from non of these sources and are not a Tax, what FRC has is a 20% royalty payed to miners initially vs 100% royalty as other coins have had.  As much as you may not like a lower royalty, that dose not make it a tax as tax is not simply a 4 letter word for 'money I am not getting'.

We are still looking for constructive input on the creation of bylaws for the foundation which will specify exactly how and how NOT to distribute funds.  We are willing put put the foundation under binding legal obligations because we have good intent and high minded ideals and are intent on showing it in both word and deed.  Come to our forums and contribute to that effort rather then just flaming us here.  If your right that were doomed to be corrupted at least you can say you did everything in your power to prevent it, on the other hand if we live up to high standards that will be a great step forward for distribution of crypto-currency and we will have set a high bar by which to measure others in the future.