Sales of accounts and invites to invite-only sites

[shep]

Selling invites is allowed, but there are some restrictions in order to prevent people from selling accounts and invites obtained through hacking. In order to sell invites or accounts to invite-only sites, you must:

selling invites doesn't make a difference.

It seems like the admin here is finding new and creative ways to rationalize existing behavior and transactions without changing much of anything other than banning the low hanging fruit that dare to be bold enough to admit to their procurement methods and acquisitions.

Nothing has really changed.  As long as the seller admits nothing publicly it's business as usual and the rules that Theymos has drafted clearly reflect that.

It seems like you joined the forum just to start shit about this......  What makes your words so valuable? Are you a lawyer? Law enforcement?

Nope I'm not law enforcement.   However, I do object to illegal sales and distribution of login credentials and access codes, no matter what website or forum they are used for.  Most website or database admin you would ask would tell you the same thing.  I'm sorry if you disagree with that opinion.  Don't kill the messenger because you can't agree with the message.

It bothers me to see someone like you trying to police this forum. You have said your piece more than a couple times here. If you don't like whats going on here, then just get off of the forum, please. Save your breath and save us all from having to read your legalese.

So it bothers you that I'm trying to improve the forum by getting Admin to recognize criminal activity taking place here that may harm the reputation of bitcoin and the website?  Well that's pretty sad actually.

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[lolwut]

Selling invites is allowed, but there are some restrictions in order to prevent people from selling accounts and invites obtained through hacking. In order to sell invites or accounts to invite-only sites, you must:

selling invites doesn't make a difference.

It seems like the admin here is finding new and creative ways to rationalize existing behavior and transactions without changing much of anything other than banning the low hanging fruit that dare to be bold enough to admit to their procurement methods and acquisitions.

Nothing has really changed.  As long as the seller admits nothing publicly it's business as usual and the rules that Theymos has drafted clearly reflect that.

It seems like you joined the forum just to start shit about this......  What makes your words so valuable? Are you a lawyer? Law enforcement?

Nope I'm not law enforcement.   However, I do object to illegal sales and distribution of login credentials and access codes, no matter what website or forum they are used for.  Most website or database admin you would ask would tell you the same thing.  I'm sorry if you disagree with that opinion.  Don't kill the messenger because you can't agree with the message.

It bothers me to see someone like you trying to police this forum. You have said your piece more than a couple times here. If you don't like whats going on here, then just get off of the forum, please. Save your breath and save us all from having to read your legalese.

So it bothers you that I'm trying to improve the forum by getting Admin to recognize criminal activity taking place here that may harm the reputation of bitcoin and the website?  Well that's pretty sad actually.

Sad is the fact that you think this forum has anything to do with the way bitcoin is seen by the world.

[grue]

It bothers me to see someone like you trying to police this forum. You have said your piece more than a couple times here. If you don't like whats going on here, then just get off of the forum, please. Save your breath and save us all from having to read your legalese.

so we're supposed to allow illegal activities to be conducted on this forum? aren't we supposed to make bitcoin mainstream and not tied to illegal transactions?

[shep]

It bothers me to see someone like you trying to police this forum. You have said your piece more than a couple times here. If you don't like whats going on here, then just get off of the forum, please. Save your breath and save us all from having to read your legalese.

So it bothers you that I'm trying to improve the forum by getting Admin to recognize criminal activity taking place here that may harm the reputation of bitcoin and the website?  Well that's pretty sad actually.

Sad is the fact that you think this forum has anything to do with the way bitcoin is seen by the world.

I actually engaged in a discussion about this topic with someone else, he might read this thread (if so hello ).   While it's true that a currency can gain momentum and ultimately in time not be impacted by minor incidents or small blips of abuse, there is a critical mass phase with build up, similar to escape velocity needed to break atmosphere.  In the early lifecycle of a new currency like bitcoin it is imperative that the reputation of the currency not be constrained or otherwise hampered by impropriety or it may never be well received.  This is the way of the world, and it honestly applies to other areas beyond financial methods of exchange.

[lolwut]

It bothers me to see someone like you trying to police this forum. You have said your piece more than a couple times here. If you don't like whats going on here, then just get off of the forum, please. Save your breath and save us all from having to read your legalese.

so we're supposed to allow illegal activities to be conducted on this forum? aren't we supposed to make bitcoin mainstream and not tied to illegal transactions?

So we blame the currency for how its being used, thats a fair assessment.....NOT

[shep]

It bothers me to see someone like you trying to police this forum. You have said your piece more than a couple times here. If you don't like whats going on here, then just get off of the forum, please. Save your breath and save us all from having to read your legalese.

so we're supposed to allow illegal activities to be conducted on this forum? aren't we supposed to make bitcoin mainstream and not tied to illegal transactions?

So we blame the currency for how its being used, thats a fair assessment.....NOT

I addressed this question in my last post.  The currency is associated with the people and transactions that primarily use it.  If a new currency is primarily or even remotely used for criminal activities it can harm the reception and spread of the currency as whole.  It's much the same as child nutrition, failing to feed a child healthy nutrients may result in stunted growth and development, which can not be fixed later in life.

[21after2]

It bothers me to see someone like you trying to police this forum. You have said your piece more than a couple times here. If you don't like whats going on here, then just get off of the forum, please. Save your breath and save us all from having to read your legalese.

so we're supposed to allow illegal activities to be conducted on this forum? aren't we supposed to make bitcoin mainstream and not tied to illegal transactions?

So we blame the currency for how its being used, thats a fair assessment.....NOT

I just addressed this question in my last post.  The currency is associated with the people and transactions that primarily use it.  If a new currency is primarily used or even remotely used for criminal activities it can harm the reception and spread of the currency as whole.  It's much the same as child nutrition, failing to feed a child healthy nutrients may result in stunted growth and development, which can not be fixed later in life.

Kinda what I was about to say. Yes, people shouldn't blame a currency for how it's being used, but people will do that anyways. There are a few US politicians that are calling for action against BitCoin, and you can bet they'll be willing to pull any shady looking thing from an unofficial BitCoin forum as proof that BitCoins are the tools of drug addicted terrorists selling WoW accounts to each other. They'll take anything they can twist to make BitCoin seem dangerous, illegal, or childish.

[vampire]

I have not threatened anyone.  I have however bought to light the criminal and civil liability that exists from ignoring transactions of illegal sales, which so far appears to be what the staff here is advocating for.

You aren't a lawyer, so what may seems illegal to you may not to me. Like the threatening part, especially when you promote illegal websites.

Actually prosecutions of computer fraud, access fraud, and theft of service does routinely hold up in court.  Unauthorized distribution or sales of access codes do result in jail time.  I already posted proof the previous thread and you'll find that most first world nations and even third world nations contain laws covering this activity.  Invites are access codes which if shared in an unauthorized manner are considered illegal access.  It's no different then providing login credentials.  If you want to believe something else, you're free to do so, but laws in most nations state otherwise.

I already said once:

Prove me dishonesty. So far you have failed to do so.
Prove me that the website was hacked.

Now the additional factor. All these nzbs websites are illegal in nature. ToS of an illegal website is worthless.

The door is that way ===================>

[shep]

It bothers me to see someone like you trying to police this forum. You have said your piece more than a couple times here. If you don't like whats going on here, then just get off of the forum, please. Save your breath and save us all from having to read your legalese.

so we're supposed to allow illegal activities to be conducted on this forum? aren't we supposed to make bitcoin mainstream and not tied to illegal transactions?

So we blame the currency for how its being used, thats a fair assessment.....NOT

I just addressed this question in my last post.  The currency is associated with the people and transactions that primarily use it.  If a new currency is primarily used or even remotely used for criminal activities it can harm the reception and spread of the currency as whole.  It's much the same as child nutrition, failing to feed a child healthy nutrients may result in stunted growth and development, which can not be fixed later in life.

Kinda what I was about to say. Yes, people shouldn't blame a currency for how it's being used, but people will do that anyways. There are a few US politicians that are calling for action against BitCoin, and you can bet they'll be willing to pull any shady looking thing from an unofficial BitCoin forum as proof that BitCoins are the tools of drug addicted terrorists selling WoW accounts to each other. They'll take anything they can twist to make BitCoin seem dangerous, illegal, or childish.

We're kind of getting off-topic, this is mostly redundant, but those politicians are having strings pulled by financial institutions that view a currency like bitcoin as competition.  The arguments about why it needs to go away are mostly irrelevant, but the end goal is what is important to those individuals and institutions.

[greyhawk]

Selling invites is allowed, but there are some restrictions in order to prevent people from selling accounts and invites obtained through hacking. In order to sell invites or accounts to invite-only sites, you must:

selling invites doesn't make a difference.

It seems like the admin here is finding new and creative ways to rationalize existing behavior and transactions without changing much of anything other than banning the low hanging fruit that dare to be bold enough to admit to their procurement methods and acquisitions.

Nothing has really changed.  As long as the seller admits nothing publicly it's business as usual and the rules that Theymos has drafted clearly reflect that.

It seems like you joined the forum just to start shit about this......  What makes your words so valuable? Are you a lawyer? Law enforcement?

Nope I'm not law enforcement.   However, I do object to illegal sales and distribution of login credentials and access codes, no matter what website or forum they are used for.  Most website or database admin you would ask would tell you the same thing.  I'm sorry if you disagree with that opinion.  Don't kill the messenger because you can't agree with the message.

It bothers me to see someone like you trying to police this forum. You have said your piece more than a couple times here. If you don't like whats going on here, then just get off of the forum, please. Save your breath and save us all from having to read your legalese.

It bothers me to see you supporting obvious scammers. Why is it that you do that? Are you preparing for/operating a scam yourself? And if so why? Did your mother not teach you right from wrong? Is that what you wanted to be as a child, a scammer?

[shep]

I have not threatened anyone.  I have however bought to light the criminal and civil liability that exists from ignoring transactions of illegal sales, which so far appears to be what the staff here is advocating for.

You aren't a lawyer, so what may seems illegal to you may not to me. Like the threatening part, especially when you promote illegal websites.

I am not promoting any websites.  I have however commented on several, none of which I am affiliated with.  I also find it interesting that you seem to believe that these websites are illegal (most are not), yet you somehow take no issue with sales of credentials or access codes, which are illegal (yes if they were procured or distributed in an unauthorized manner it does fall under access fraud, misuse of access, computer fraud, illegal access, and/or theft of service).

Actually prosecutions of computer fraud, access fraud, and theft of service does routinely hold up in court.  Unauthorized distribution or sales of access codes do result in jail time.  I already posted proof the previous thread and you'll find that most first world nations and even third world nations contain laws covering this activity.  Invites are access codes which if shared in an unauthorized manner are considered illegal access.  It's no different then providing login credentials.  If you want to believe something else, you're free to do so, but laws in most nations state otherwise.

I already said once:

Prove me dishonesty. So far you have failed to do so.
Prove me that the website was hacked.

Now the additional factor. All these nzbs websites are illegal in nature. ToS of an illegal website is worthless.

The door is that way ===================>

I have nothing to prove.I have however pointed out the distribution and or sales of credentials and access codes which have not been explicitly authorized by a site owner or institution that they belong to is in fact illegal and can be prosecuted.   Sellers and facilitators can face criminal and civil liability.  Again, I'm sorry if you and some others can't accept that, but that is the way that most legal systems operate.  Theft of service is recognized by most first world and third world nations.

Regarding your other statement.  I think you do some research you will find that most NZB websites are legal in many nations depending on where they are hosted, they operate under safe harbor, and reference posts made to newsgroups.  The sites themselves can not host any infringing material and if they do receive a complaint and fail to act, they can be shutdown or face criminal and civil liability.

If you wish to engage in civil discussion, I'm fair game, but if your only intent is trying to silence me and make demands that I leave, you'll be ignored. I might ask how exactly are you improving discussion in this thread? You aren't addressing the topic of the forum policy, nor are you moving this discussion forward.

[John (John K.)]

how come this guy gets to sell accounts?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=134044.0

- Have some history here, with more history being required for trades of invites/accounts in bulk. Or, nope, account created a week ago
- Have substantial history on reputable invite trading forums such as torrentinvites.org which prohibit selling hacked accounts. Or, none that was mentioned
- Be vouched for by someone from one of the above two categories. nope

He proved the second point to theymos already.

Shep, although I'm not that knowledgeable about the rules concerning this issue, a cursory review on sites trading invites/accounts for usenet/torrenting sites tells me that most of them are either registered at USA and/or hosted at USA.  It's those usenet /torrent sites that are having problems with DMCA and the like for pirating issues, not those account/invite trading sites.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

I like how shep is against selling torrent invites legitimately acquired but doesn't touch in the issue that torrent sites are practically used for piracy which is illegal.

Also, what about my signature space? Should I be banned for selling it? I haven't got permission from any of the site moderators to sell it!!!!!!

[vampire]

I am not promoting any websites.  I have however commented on several, none of which I am affiliated with.  I also find it interesting that you seem to believe that these websites are illegal (most are not), yet you somehow take no issue with sales of credentials or access codes, which are illegal (yes if they were procured or distributed in an unauthorized manner it does fall under access fraud, misuse of access, computer fraud, illegal access, and/or theft of service).

Really? They aren't illegal? Wow. I checked your comments history and pulled the ToS of the website in question.

https://www.gingadaddy.com/rules.php

We promote the use of scene releases since they will get you what you want (home made's can be something else than you expect, and there's often no NFO included to do proper research or comparison before downloading).

Thus, when you upload a Scene Release, use the proper Scene Release name. This includes the dots between the names and the release group at the end. If you don't know what the Scene Release title is, start out by looking in the post names, either in the file list of the nzb after being posted, or by searching usenet with a site like www.binsearch.info or www.newzleech.com. There are also lots of NFO resources such as www.vcdquality.com or www.nfoogle.com

for example, the correct formatting for a dvdr movie would be:
The.Matrix.Reloaded.NTSC.DVDR-Replica
and for music:
Led_Zeppelin-Latter_Days-2000-EGO
etc.

That sounds as highly illegal to me. A website owner lists copyrighted files for the download....

Also you should read this part:

http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/linking-copyrighted-materials

Linking also raises legal issues in connection with the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA. Section 1201 of the DMCA makes it illegal to traffic in technology that enables others to circumvent technological measures put in place by copyright holders to control access to or uses of their copyright work.

I have nothing to prove.I have however pointed out the distribution and or sales of credentials and access codes which have not been explicitly authorized by a site owner or institution that they belong to is in fact illegal and can be prosecuted.   Sellers and facilitators can face criminal and civil liability.  Again, I'm sorry if you and some others can't accept that, but that is the way that most legal systems operate.  Theft of service is recognized by most first world and third world nations.

Regarding your other statement.  I think you do some research you will find that most NZB websites are in fact not illegal depending on where they are hosted, they operate under safe harbor, and reference posts made to newsgroups.  The sites themselves can not host any infringing material and if they do receive a complaint and fail to act, they can be shutdown or face criminal and civil liability.

If you wish to engage in civil discussion, I'm fair game, but if your only intent is trying to silence me and make demands that I leave, you'll be ignored. I might ask how exactly are you improving discussion in this thread? You aren't addressing the topic of the forum policy, nor are you moving this discussion forward.

The burden of proof is on you. If you can't prove according to law that you had referenced here then there is nothing to talk about civilly here.

[shep]

how come this guy gets to sell accounts?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=134044.0

- Have some history here, with more history being required for trades of invites/accounts in bulk. Or, nope, account created a week ago
- Have substantial history on reputable invite trading forums such as torrentinvites.org which prohibit selling hacked accounts. Or, none that was mentioned
- Be vouched for by someone from one of the above two categories. nope

He proved the second point to theymos already.

Shep, although I'm not that knowledgeable about the rules concerning this issue, a cursory review on sites trading invites/accounts for usenet/torrenting sites tells me that most of them are either registered at USA and/or hosted at USA.  It's those usenet /torrent sites that are having problems with DMCA and the like for pirating issues, not those account/invite trading sites.

Sales of access codes or credentials are illegal. Whether or not anyone has chosen to pursue credentials on those sites is a completely different debate, but the act of sales and distribution in a secondary market is in itself illegal without authorization by a site owner or institution that granted them based on provisional access.

[greyhawk]

supernatural confirming he is selling unauthorized access breaking TOS

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=134747.msg1436889#msg1436889

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

@shep:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=134946.0

[shep]

I am not promoting any websites.  I have however commented on several, none of which I am affiliated with.  I also find it interesting that you seem to believe that these websites are illegal (most are not), yet you somehow take no issue with sales of credentials or access codes, which are illegal (yes if they were procured or distributed in an unauthorized manner it does fall under access fraud, misuse of access, computer fraud, illegal access, and/or theft of service).

Really? They aren't illegal? Wow. I checked your comments history and pulled the ToS of the website in question.

https://www.gingadaddy.com/rules.php

We promote the use of scene releases since they will get you what you want (home made's can be something else than you expect, and there's often no NFO included to do proper research or comparison before downloading).

Thus, when you upload a Scene Release, use the proper Scene Release name. This includes the dots between the names and the release group at the end. If you don't know what the Scene Release title is, start out by looking in the post names, either in the file list of the nzb after being posted, or by searching usenet with a site like www.binsearch.info or www.newzleech.com. There are also lots of NFO resources such as www.vcdquality.com or www.nfoogle.com

for example, the correct formatting for a dvdr movie would be:
The.Matrix.Reloaded.NTSC.DVDR-Replica
and for music:
Led_Zeppelin-Latter_Days-2000-EGO
etc.

That sounds as highly illegal to me. A website owner lists copyrighted files for the download....

Also you should read this part:

http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/linking-copyrighted-materials

Linking also raises legal issues in connection with the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA. Section 1201 of the DMCA makes it illegal to traffic in technology that enables others to circumvent technological measures put in place by copyright holders to control access to or uses of their copyright work.

I have nothing to prove.I have however pointed out the distribution and or sales of credentials and access codes which have not been explicitly authorized by a site owner or institution that they belong to is in fact illegal and can be prosecuted.   Sellers and facilitators can face criminal and civil liability.  Again, I'm sorry if you and some others can't accept that, but that is the way that most legal systems operate.  Theft of service is recognized by most first world and third world nations.

Regarding your other statement.  I think you do some research you will find that most NZB websites are in fact not illegal depending on where they are hosted, they operate under safe harbor, and reference posts made to newsgroups.  The sites themselves can not host any infringing material and if they do receive a complaint and fail to act, they can be shutdown or face criminal and civil liability.

If you wish to engage in civil discussion, I'm fair game, but if your only intent is trying to silence me and make demands that I leave, you'll be ignored. I might ask how exactly are you improving discussion in this thread? You aren't addressing the topic of the forum policy, nor are you moving this discussion forward.

The burden of proof is on you. If you can't prove according to law that you had referenced here then there is nothing to talk about civilly here.

I don't represent gingadaddy, nor am I affiliated with them.  If you believe there is a legal issue with that site I suggest you send them a DMCA takedown notification.  Also I think that you're ignoring your own arguments.  If those sites are illegal, then why is this forum allowing transactions of access codes and credentials for those sites?  If anything you're supporting my argument that sales of access codes and credentials for those sites should not be allowed on this forum.

[vampire]

I don't represent gingadaddy, nor am I affiliated with them.  If you believe there is a legal issue with that site I suggest you send them a DMCA takedown notification.  Also I think that you're ignoring your own arguments.  If those sites are illegal, then why is this forum allowing transactions of access codes and credentials for those sites?  If anything you're supporting my argument that sales of access codes and credentials for those sites should not be allowed on this forum.

If these websites are illegal then their contracts are illegal.

or

Even if these sites are legal, you still need to prove dishonesty.

In both cases bitcointalk.org shouldn't care. You're welcome to send a legal takedown notice to bitcointalk. Follow your own advice.

[drakahn]

if a dmca notice is enough for those sites, they should submit a dmca takedown notice to bitcointalk about the invites