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Author Topic: Garzik encourages regulation  (Read 12480 times)
gusti
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June 09, 2011, 07:24:30 PM
 #121

Also, a little anecdotal story, for anyone doubting the Black Box's very real power:

In the mid 90s, during the fiber optic buildout boom, a close friend of mine worked on architecting an AT&T inter-continental fiber switching terminal in the Bay Area (west coast of the US for non Amercians Smiley ). Towards the end of the project, NSA came in and restricted access to the main switching room. He is almost certain that they mirrored the connection and pointed it directly at a huge datamining operation that was housed nearby in what amounted to a very large bunker.

Essentially the government is very likely archiving every packet of traffic sent by anyone at a few key junction points.  They have likely been doing this for 15+ years. They are likely getting close to having the computational power and algorithmic wherewithal to parse these many exabytes (zettabyte?) of data.

I know this may sound perilously close to tinfoil hat club territory to some of you, but again, if you think that the CIA/NSA/SS is going to simply allow BTC to threaten the primacy of the USD in this country completely unchallenged, I think you'll find you are sorely mistaken.

I know big brother is already between us, and with our own consent. But, on the other side, copyright piracy hurts US economy by the billions. So, why don't they enforce them all ?

If you don't own the private keys, you don't own the coins.
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Goldenmaw
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June 09, 2011, 07:25:34 PM
 #122

Oh, geez.  Where's J.C. Denton when we need him?

Great game Smiley

But seriously, this is not far fetched. My friend doesn't know exactly what was done in that terminal, just that it was very very secretive, and verifiably NSA. He's much smarter than me and I'm inclined very much to trust his assesment of that situation..

Anyway.. none of this shit is particularly germane to this discussion, I apologize for the semi derail.

Personally, I'm going to continue happily mining, and hoarding, and exchanging BTC directly for goods/services.

Currency exchangers are well cautioned to be extremely careful.
I have a feeling Deus Ex 3 is going to be a big cinematic stinker.  Hopefully I'm wrong.

As for what we're doing now being used against us in the future, before any official legal status for this enterprise is established, that's a bit of a dick move even for the feds, don't ya' think?  I consider myself a law abiding citizen, and I intend to pay full taxes on any earnings that come about from this, and to use Bitcoins solely in legal exchanges.  The idea that I might be prosecuted anyway is kind of infuriating... Although not particularly realistic.  
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June 09, 2011, 07:27:19 PM
 #123

I know big brother is already between us, and with our own consent. But, on the other side, copyright piracy hurts US economy by the billions. So, why don't they enforce them all ?
That's an easy one.  If our entertainment industry fell through tomorrow, our federal government would survive.  If the dollar fell through tomorrow, the result would be pretty cataclysmic.  Damage control.
Scientician!
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June 09, 2011, 07:29:06 PM
 #124

Also, a little anecdotal story, for anyone doubting the Black Box's very real power:

In the mid 90s, during the fiber optic buildout boom, a close friend of mine worked on architecting an AT&T inter-continental fiber switching terminal in the Bay Area (west coast of the US for non Amercians Smiley ). Towards the end of the project, NSA came in and restricted access to the main switching room. He is almost certain that they mirrored the connection and pointed it directly at a huge datamining operation that was housed nearby in what amounted to a very large bunker.

Essentially the government is very likely archiving every packet of traffic sent by anyone at a few key junction points.  They have likely been doing this for 15+ years. They are likely getting close to having the computational power and algorithmic wherewithal to parse these many exabytes (zettabyte?) of data.

I know this may sound perilously close to tinfoil hat club territory to some of you, but again, if you think that the CIA/NSA/SS is going to simply allow BTC to threaten the primacy of the USD in this country completely unchallenged, I think you'll find you are sorely mistaken.

I know big brother is already between us, and with our own consent. But, on the other side, copyright piracy hurts US economy by the billions. So, why don't they enforce them all ?

Right - its about resource allocation.. Personally, I think they are likely combing this data for domestic terrorism threats and testing out refinments to parsing algroithms.

I doubt really whether the NSA could give two flying fucks at a rolling donut about the RIAA.
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June 09, 2011, 07:32:47 PM
 #125

It really is the reality of the situation - that they've got the motive and the power to crush Bitcoin in the USA, that has me so hopeful that a way can be found within the boundaries of our government to make use of Bitcoins.  It's an incredible system, and the country that embraces it first is going to get a hell of a lead on the world.  I hope China continues to dump money into this - you know they'll have to pony up if China gets on board.
gusti
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June 09, 2011, 07:42:59 PM
 #126

It really is the reality of the situation - that they've got the motive and the power to crush Bitcoin in the USA, that has me so hopeful that a way can be found within the boundaries of our government to make use of Bitcoins.  It's an incredible system, and the country that embraces it first is going to get a hell of a lead on the world.  I hope China continues to dump money into this - you know they'll have to pony up if China gets on board.

Did you ever heard of a gazelle trying to convince a lion ? Bitcoin is the gazelle on steroids.

If you don't own the private keys, you don't own the coins.
Goldenmaw
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June 09, 2011, 08:03:37 PM
 #127

Yep.  It could work out.  Time will tell.
EhVedadoOAnonimato
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June 09, 2011, 08:40:11 PM
 #128

A regulated Bitcoin, is not Bitcoin anymore. Those who defends regulation, please go with Paypal and the likes.
You do not deserve to be part of this new paradigm.

THANK YOU!!!  ^^ This is the most succinct and spot on post in this whole thread.  Again, if you are in favor of regulated currencies, then you are at the wrong spot, fellows.  Stick with your PayPals and your Visas and your USDs.  And pay your hefty transactions fees/taxes as you please.  Just leave bitcoin alone.

+1000 to both posts.

It's sad to see this thread... statists all over. People shamelessly demanding violence against others.

In the other topic I've opened, I manifested my disgust with Garzik talk on that CBS interview. Not only he threw inaccurate claims on the air, as he attacked people who are doing a great service to mankind, for no reason.

"A regulated Bitcoin is not Bitcoin anymore". Couldn't be said better. I hope the developers never forget that.
swusc2
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June 09, 2011, 08:53:32 PM
 #129

A regulated Bitcoin, is not Bitcoin anymore. Those who defends regulation, please go with Paypal and the likes.
You do not deserve to be part of this new paradigm.

THANK YOU!!!  ^^ This is the most succinct and spot on post in this whole thread.  Again, if you are in favor of regulated currencies, then you are at the wrong spot, fellows.  Stick with your PayPals and your Visas and your USDs.  And pay your hefty transactions fees/taxes as you please.  Just leave bitcoin alone.

+1000 to both posts.

It's sad to see this thread... statists all over. People shamelessly demanding violence against others.

In the other topic I've opened, I manifested my disgust with Garzik talk on that CBS interview. Not only he threw inaccurate claims on the air, as he attacked people who are doing a great service to mankind, for no reason.

"A regulated Bitcoin is not Bitcoin anymore". Couldn't be said better. I hope the developers never forget that.

What people don't seem to understand is there is difference between "Regulating: Bitcoin" and "Regulating: Illegal Drugs". It's at the discretion of the government within their own borders to regulate the products that are available to buy with ANY currency. You might not be allowed to buy drugs in the US but in other countries its perfectly fine!

Impress your friends! Buy a bitcoin keychain!
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=30799.0
Goldenmaw
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June 09, 2011, 09:10:47 PM
 #130

It's sad to see this thread... statists all over. People shamelessly demanding violence against others.
Ideological differences aside, who the hell is demanding violence towards anyone?  I haven't seen that.


What people don't seem to understand is there is difference between "Regulating: Bitcoin" and "Regulating: Illegal Drugs". It's at the discretion of the government within their own borders to regulate the products that are available to buy with ANY currency. You might not be allowed to buy drugs in the US but in other countries its perfectly fine!
This is an excellent point.  Bitcoin certainly needs to be considered on a country by country basis.
Batouzo
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June 10, 2011, 12:10:12 PM
 #131

People soon have to realize the following:

- BitCoin cannot be regulated
- BitCoin cannot be shutdown
- BitCoin cannot be represented by individuals

I am sick and tired of hearing statements of stopping it and blocking it and making it illegal. GET IT INTO YOUR MIND, THERE IS NO CENTRAL SYSTEM.

Sure it can be shuted down - just block the port. Or harvest. Or makie it illegal, put up traps, undercover cops as bitcoin users, trade with other users and then arrest them all.
bittersweet
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June 10, 2011, 12:37:08 PM
 #132

You overestimate government. They can't even keep drugs out of their own prisons. There is no way they could shut down whole Bitcoin. They could try to hinder it a bit with many violent actions, but it would be a hopeless act. It would be like trying to stop tsunami. The Bitcoin tsunami is coming, and it will wash away all the corrupt, manipulative and violent gangs that rule this planet. Hold tight.

My Bitcoin address: 1DjTsAYP3xR4ymcTUKNuFa5aHt42q2VgSg
andrew_jacksun
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June 10, 2011, 12:59:11 PM
 #133

oh look bitcoin.org homepage client .22-beta no longer lets you generate coins. and all the generating software requires quite a bit of work and computer savvy.

central bankers already took over the network. my faith in this shit is lost. time for something fresh.

inb4 herp derp your shitty hardware makes no difference anyway.

like my politics? thanks! help me buy sum Silky Asic Fpga
1MTSBKivkyYVUaDT9tZrGMSu99zS7kZDAE
rezin777
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June 10, 2011, 01:03:31 PM
 #134

oh look bitcoin.org homepage client .22-beta no longer lets you generate coins. and all the generating software requires quite a bit of work and computer savvy.

central bankers already took over the network. my faith in this shit is lost. time for something fresh.

inb4 herp derp your shitty hardware makes no difference anyway.

I recommend you don't use the new client if you don't like it. I also recommend steering clear of faith, it normally turns out bad.
cloud9
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June 10, 2011, 01:09:54 PM
 #135

"In new developments in the world of online transfers it has been established that anonymously exchanged online virtual Visa and Mastercard debit gift cards have been used to buy drugs, child pornography and illegal pirated digital goods from online shops proxy-posing as legitimate digital downloadable goods distributors."



Whilst the above quoted scenario might definitely be a possibility in our everyday existence, it is used fictionally as a demonstration of a possibility.  In the main stream media however, a blind eye is turned to this possibility.  Is a big deal of this possibility made, or even investigated by powerful Senators?  Or are the Senators first waiting for a donation from Bitcoin to give Bitcoin the same respectful treatment, in order to be - not smear campaigned?  It is not Bitcoin in default, but the Bitcoin (or any other asset) laundering criminals that should be investigated.  Shouldn't it be publicly corrected and clearly be stated, that your crusade is against criminals and not the legal Bitcoin trading public?  Don't you have all the legislation currently in place to bring a suspected Bitcoin launderer (like any other asset launderer) to book?  If anonymization is the problem, is the problem you have not with the Tor network endorsed by some?  Because anonymization is not a standard feature of the Bitcoin algorithm.

A criminal's Bitcoins are worthless if it can not, at some stage, access an economical use, at its network entry or exit point.  Please use the transparent, publicly available Bitcoin blockchain to investigate your Bitcoin laundering criminals, subpoena a suspected Bitcoin user, or any under investigation, to testify what the source of their Bitcoins were.  You can even transfer it out of existence to any address without a corresponding private key - that is to say if a legitimate source can not be proven (this is if the onus under your jurisdiction is on the suspect to prove innocense) - it will justly increase the value of legitimately acquired Bitcoins for the damage done in recent press articles.  And then leave the legitimate free market, digital goods (uniquely identifiable Intellectual property of Bitcoin cryptographic keys, accounting allocation system in this instance) trading community, out of the generalizations - or be equatable and publicly demonize the debit gift card industry as well - and face damage claims from the companies/individuals involved.  Anonymous and untraceable is a misrepresentation - with engough time, effort and protocol and ip monitoring (in combination with tor monitoring already conducted), an investigation can reveal everything, if the onus of proof lies with the investigator and not the investigated.

Note:  It is not the Bitcoin algorithm's standard protocol to launder Bitcoins - it is a wilfull illegal act.  It is also against Debit Gift card companies' policy to transfer ownership from the recipient of a debit gift card - but debit gift card laundering will be an illegal wilfull act.

Disclaimer:  Postings of Cloud9 are only individual views of opinion and/or musings and/or hypothesisses.  On a non-authoritative, peer-to-peer public forum, you do not need permission from Cloud9 to derive your own conclusions or opinions, so please do.  Calculations and assumptions to be verified.
benjamindees
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June 10, 2011, 01:45:35 PM
 #136

Anonymity is a "standard feature" of Federal Reserve Notes and bearer bonds.  This entire argument just reveals how little a lot of geeks truly know about the real world.

The juxtaposition of Jeff, on his webcam in his room surrounded by computers talking about the "good guys", and the dejected looks on the faces of the hipsters interviewing him, who only want to know whether they can use Bitcoin to buy drugs without going to prison, is precious.

Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics
CoinMonster
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June 11, 2011, 08:27:55 AM
 #137

1) Will cooperating with government make bitcoins go up in value because it may result in their adoption by the mainstream, or will it make bitcoins less valuable because it diminishes financial privacy which is a very important motivation for a lot of people.
No, it will make them go down in value. What advantage does an anonymous crypto e-currency not calculated in dollars have over a debit card for an average house wife trying to buy a shirt on Amazon.com? Absolutely none. The application is in people who are doing other things with their money. Smiley I would have no interest whatsoever with bitcoin if there was not this anonymity component. Without this, it is NOT better money/payment method, and HARDLY interesting.

2) Assuming that companies like Mt Gox become registered MSBs, what are the prospects for outlaw exchanges and a successful black market in bitcoins where you don’t have to present your papers in order to transact business?
The prospects are not good for outlaw exchanges in the USA. Look up "goldage" "arrested" "unlicensed" in google.

The prospects are very good for exchangers outside the USA who do not have to put up with the US government's unstoppable idiocy.

The people who are most interested in bitcoin are people looking for anonymous payment methods (don't believe it? just look at the rise in $ value since the Silk Road news hit). If they can't get it in the US, they will take their money to exchangers who respect their wishes. If the US government wants to drive out exchangers (and they do), so be it. Foreign exchangers will benefit.

Stardust
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June 11, 2011, 09:35:21 AM
 #138

For those worrying Bitcoin will become illegal, you can always use Tor.  If all exchanges become illegal, which is unlikely, you can trade on IRC or other chat mediums for cash or Paypal, etc.

The most important thing is that Bitcoin stays decentralized, including alternative clients, so people learn programming.
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