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Author Topic: The real disastor that could happen (forking Bitcoin)...  (Read 4879 times)
jbreher
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February 02, 2016, 05:07:20 AM
 #81

If the Bitcoin Classic was going to use 95% ...

Following uncomfortable?

The amount of electricity that miners are paying for is so large that they will most likely shut down their hashing operations if the exchanges have closed down which will reduce the difficulty (in two weeks).

After two weeks if the problem hasn't been worked out then everyone is basically going to walk away and the Bitcoin experiment will be declared a failure.

Did you buy this account? Your recent posts don't strike me as the CIYAM of old.

For one, why do you think 'two weeks' is in any way relevant?

Anyone with a campaign ad in their signature -- for an organization with which they are not otherwise affiliated -- is automatically deducted credibility points.

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February 02, 2016, 05:19:09 AM
 #82

Did you buy this account? Your recent posts don't strike me as the CIYAM of old.

For one, why do you think 'two weeks' is in any way relevant?

Seriously?

Two weeks is just a guess so feel free to interpret that as two months if you prefer (it doesn't really change the issue one way or the other).

Previously I've steered clear of any "politics" on this forum but with all of the misinformation that is being posted on behalf of those wanting a hostile takeover of the project to occur I felt it was time to "make a statement".

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achow101
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February 02, 2016, 05:29:53 AM
 #83

Why should soft forks deploy with 95% but hard forks deploy with 75%?

Why do you claim that soft forks deploy with 95%?
Because they do. Just read the BIPs for soft forks ....

Some specific soft fork proposals are set at 95%. Not endemic to soft forks generally. Got it.

What is the soft fork threshold for the SegWit Omnibus? Anyone?
It is the same as the other previous soft forks. Try actually reading the post I made because I stated that very clearly with references.

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February 02, 2016, 05:34:32 AM
 #84

This is just a conspiracy theory, but I think Gavin wants to force a hard fork, to see if the Core team can handle this
scenario. They themselves said, "We do not want to hard-fork, because of a lack of experience" Is this a test, to discredit the Core developers? The Core team avoided a hard fork by all means, and Gavin knows this.

It would definitely test their resolve, if a forced hard-fork are engineered by the Gavinoids.  Roll Eyes  

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February 02, 2016, 06:02:13 AM
 #85

The amount of electricity that miners are paying for is so large that they will most likely shut down their hashing operations if the exchanges have closed down which will reduce the difficulty (in two weeks).

After two weeks if the problem hasn't been worked out then everyone is basically going to walk away and the Bitcoin experiment will be declared a failure.

more like, miners do not trade on public exchanges. instead they do private trades (otc style)

for instance VC's hand miners FIAT to pay the electric. and the miners hand bitcoins to the VC as their returns. that way funds dont actually touch public exchanges..

even things like bitpay received 30+million in fiat a couple years ago and they used the fiat to pay customers and gave the bitcoin to VC's, without needing to touch exchanges as often as you would think.

secondly. if miners are losing funds due to VC's not accepting their transactions (due to threat of orphaning.. then miners would downgrade to mitigate the risk of orphans or go offline temporarily to conserve costs.. resulting in a reduction of the difficulty if the stalemate lasts too long.. its not an instant killing off of bitcoin its just a re-organisation of power.

in short miners wont push the boundary of the 1mb limit.. even if they have the setting in their client as a buffer, they wont physically make blocks bigger than 1 block unless they are sure their blocks wont get orphaned or not accepted by the community..

so even if 75% of the community had the 2mb setting as a buffer. miners wont shoot themselves in the foot, they would just plod along at 0.99mb until the time is right.

any miner that went full retard and tried to force a fork, even at 75% would eventually get their attempt orphaned unless they had more hash power than any other miner to ensure they kept beating other miners to win the blockheight race.

in short the 2mb setting is a harmless buffer setting thats never used, unless
1. miners are secure that their attempts to make bigger blocks wont evaporate into orphans
2. they had enough hash power to tip the scales in their favour without loss
3. they had community relaying support to ensure their blocks got relayed.
4. their not mentally retarded to risk more processing time, orphans or going offline which would be 3 slaps in the face, for just being to eager.


instead they would wait it out until the time was right. even if gavins 'few week' predicted timescale elapses, miners just wont move forward until they are sure.

this is also the reason miners dont upgrade their mining software as often. as they like to let the community test out new software before risking using it on a pool.

if you think that accepting more transactions(fees) is more important compared to long term regular income.. you are wrong.
currently fee's average 0.4btc total per block. if you think they are going to let in another 100 transactions (1.05mb instead of 0.99mb) just to get 0.42btc while risking their opportunities for multiple long term earnings of 12.5btc.. well im guessing you prefer the conspiracy theory more than logic theory.

some miners may be mentally impaired and try pushing beyond the 1mb limit prematurely, but they will find their attempts cost them if they dont have all the other factors ready to protect them and the community, and so the are just shooting themselves in the foot and only hurting themselves in the end. and so eventually they will adjust down to start earning again and wait for a better time to adjust up again, or the rest of the community will grow to allow miners to move forward sooner.. or the miner will just go full retard and mine anyway at a loss. for no good reason. and the rest of us just orphan off those attempts

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johnyj
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February 02, 2016, 06:29:18 AM
 #86

It's very easy to do a hard fork by your self if you just have 1% of total hash power, just compile a different incompatible version of bitcoin and mine a couple of blocks that is accepted by your client but not the rest of the network, once that block entered in your chain, you have done the hard fork

Unfortunately no one but you will be interested in that new chain and you have nowhere to exchange the coins on that fork

It is similar to any other hard fork, if no one is interested in the minority chain after the fork, then the coins on that fork will become worthless, at least much less than any alt-coin

This can be proved by the July 04 hard fork, the major hash power has mined a incompatible chain, those coins on that chain becomes useless and the miners lost 50K dollars on mining that chain

So to make sure the fork does not do any harm, you only need to make sure all the exchanges support only the major fork. And when a fork is really necessary, people will quickly reach consensus. Currently there is no such urgency so there is not enough consensus


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February 02, 2016, 06:33:14 AM
 #87

Wow! Some really great information here, what a great thread. Can I give a newbie summary as I see it, and please correct me where I am wrong.

There are two main camps.
SegWit who want to extend the functionality of Bitcoin, and as part of this extension, they want to split the transaction for storage in two chains (is this correct?) The important section regarding the amount of the transfer and the history link stay in the existing blockchain, but because of the reduction in information, more transactions can be stored in a block. This solves the size problem in the short term, and still allows for an upgrade to 2Mb blocks when traffic volumes have increased in the future. This could become effective fairly quickly.

Double blocks want to double the size of the blocks as a temporary solution, and then increase them again in the future as traffic continues to increase, They believe that this can be implemented immediately. Whilst the code changes could be incorporated quickly, it seems to me that no miner would produce blocks over 1Mb in case the SegWit fork wins, and they lose their income. Thus the 2Mb change will not be effective until the fork dispute is resolved.

If core includes some of the other enhancements with SegWit, then wouldn't that become the popular choice of nodes? Also, if I have understood the problem, then double blocks don't seem to offer any benefit in the short term.

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February 02, 2016, 06:50:31 AM
 #88

If we actually end up with a forked blockchain then we will have "two Bitcoins" (or more depending upon the software being used).

What will this do?

For a start I predict it will cause all exchanges to "stop trading" (as they will not want to risk fiat losses in case they have ended up on the wrong fork).

Once the exchanges have stopped then the miners can no longer sell their BTC block rewards so that means within a very short time there will be a serious problem in the mining area.

The amount of electricity that miners are paying for is so large that they will most likely shut down their hashing operations if the exchanges have closed down which will reduce the difficulty (in two weeks).

After two weeks if the problem hasn't been worked out then everyone is basically going to walk away and the Bitcoin experiment will be declared a failure.

This is what we are facing (so you've got to wonder why Gavin wants to try and push for this).


I think they need only to check if the coins reached on the deposit address on both chains. Then these coins are safe. It doesn't matter then which chain will win since they have the bitcoins on both chains.

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February 02, 2016, 06:52:55 AM
 #89

I think they need only to check if the coins reached on the deposit address on both chains. Then these coins are safe. It doesn't matter then which chain will win since they have the bitcoins on both chains.

Huh?

You are not making sense. An exchange is going to on one fork or the other (not both unless they want to be giving away fiat).

If your exchange decides on Fork A and then Fork B finally wins out then that exchange will go "belly up" (as all the coins it has had deposited would be unsalable).

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February 02, 2016, 06:55:16 AM
 #90

OP's post is so so shallow, so uninformed and probably malicious.

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February 02, 2016, 06:57:46 AM
 #91

Yup, that's why there is a 75% threshold so your scenario won't happen. 75% is more than enough. It means on the worst case, 75% agreed to leave at most 25% behind. I doubt 25% will stick with the old chain anyway.

I guess you didn't closely follow about what happened with NotXT.

I can guarantee you that there will be fake BitcoinClassic nodes created so that it seems that 75% is achieved and then after one day - that 75% will disappear (and this is why all exchanges will simply stop exchanging as they know that this will happen).


Fake bitcoin classic nodes would not be able to raise the percent of support since they aren't actual miners. At the end the amount of hashrates are mattering.

And when a fork happens then when support for this new system raises a high value which means everyone will switch then since it is very unlikely that they will drop again then.

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February 02, 2016, 06:59:01 AM
 #92

Who the fuck is this classic shit? Roll Eyes

Is sounds to me like some bad commercial!
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February 02, 2016, 07:00:09 AM
 #93

Fake bitcoin classic nodes would not be able to raise the percent of support since they aren't actual miners. At the end the amount of hashrates are mattering.

Hashers can throw their power behind a classic miner then later withdraw their hashing power.

And when a fork happens then when support for this new system raises a high value which means everyone will switch then since it is very unlikely that they will drop again then.

As I've stated I don't think we are just dealing with sensible people making sensible decisions.

If Bitcoin Classic were to stick to the way that soft forks have so been done (95% before activation of the new feature) then all of this controversy would go away.

If the vast majority of people do want 2MB blocks then I don't see that 95% should be a problem (and for the record I don't really care if the blocks are 1MB or 2MB).

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February 02, 2016, 07:15:07 AM
 #94

Yup, that's why there is a 75% threshold so your scenario won't happen. 75% is more than enough. It means on the worst case, 75% agreed to leave at most 25% behind. I doubt 25% will stick with the old chain anyway.
The other 25% which are almost 1/3 of the system are being forced to take action. If we end up being a system where the majority can push around the rest, then we are not better than fiat.
The other 25% (of the original sum) is more than 1/3 of the forked system and are being forced to take decide.

25% are exactly 1/4 of the system and not almost 1/3.

And what do you mean with a system where the majority can push around the rest? I guess you never heard of how democracy is actually the best way of ruling a country. I wonder what you would prefer, i guess no dictatorship.

The majority says what will be done which is simply a democratic principle.

Oh look, another BTC doom theorist. Maybe aliens come and steal Gavin and your wallet.

STOP SPREADING FUD!
Two chains, twice the amount of coins. This is not FUD; this is a fact.

We only would have split all coins when all the same coins are on different addresses on each chain. If they are on the same then these coins are safe and for them it would be as if no fork was happening.

Whoever pushes the fork has a strong incentive to see its side of the fork be recognized as the only "universal" bitcoin
Strong incentive to test out this attack vector on Bitcoin.

So then is the segwit softfork an attack vector too or is this different because... it's what i think has to happen?

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February 02, 2016, 07:17:30 AM
 #95

Will miners actually create 2Mb blocks if they risk them being orphaned if SegWit wins?

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February 02, 2016, 07:17:40 AM
 #96

Bitcoin is not a democracy (have you not even read Satoshi's paper?).

Satoshi said 1 vote per CPU (not 1 vote per person) so surely you can understand that one person can have more than one CPU?

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February 02, 2016, 07:18:06 AM
 #97

I do not believe a hard fork will occur, there is not enough approval for it to occur.
Who the fuck is this classic shit? Roll Eyes

Is sounds to me like some bad commercial!
Just the name for the current bitcoin, I suppose?

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February 02, 2016, 07:22:55 AM
 #98

Then you don't understand how the actual fiat system works.

btw 25% =/= almost 1/3. It equals 1/4.

There was a mistake in my original statement and miscalculation. 25% of the initial network is more than 30% of the forked network. You're the one who doesn't understand the current system that we're living in. Stop trying to make Bitcoin a democracy. It should be trustless, not a battle between chains.

Still it means 3 times more hashpower on the new chain.

And bitcoin no democracy... then there should nothing at all happen. Though the facts are that all forks are a form of democracy. I wonder how you imagine how things should be solved otherwise. We will never reach a consensus after this long time so the solution would be to do nothing? Or simply doing what you want?

I don't see why it is fine for you to run a softfork that activates after 75% of the hashpower is using it or a hard fork that goes life after similar thresholds. Double standards? It would still show that the majority supports something.

Really, i wonder what you are against for.

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February 02, 2016, 07:25:39 AM
 #99

I don't see why it is fine for you to run a softfork that activates after 75% of the hashpower is using it or a hard fork that goes life after similar thresholds. Double standards? It would still show that the majority supports something.

All soft forks so far have only been enforced after a 95% threshold (and this will apply with SegWit as well).

The only people trying to push for a 75% hard-fork are Bitcoin Classic, Bitcoin Unlimited and Bitcoin XT (the latter being now defunct).

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February 02, 2016, 07:28:41 AM
 #100

Previously I've steered clear of any "politics" on this forum but with all of the misinformation that is being posted on behalf of those wanting a hostile takeover of the project to occur I felt it was time to "make a statement".


I, for one, appreciate it. The propaganda from the XT Classic camp is relentless.

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