What are the minimum prerequisites for Capitalism to be possible?

[myrkul]

Still on page 1 but I didn't see it there...

Capitalism needs a store of value. It doesn't work exchanging  chickens for corn if  the chicken spoils and the corn rots. Sure, you'll eat well but it's only when you get to chicken jerky, feathers for decoration and dry storage for the corn that capitalism kicks in

Pre-money capitalism typically traded the chickens alive and kicking.

I guess live chickens are a valid form of stored value

Other livestock, as well. "Look how rich he is! He's got five goats."

But money is important. It's easier to carry around than livestock, and with accepted ratios, easier to make change. Also, you don't need to feed it. Added bonus: you can bury it in the back yard, and dig it up a year later, still worth as much as the day you buried it. Try doing that with a chicken.

[Richy_T]

Other livestock, as well. "Look how rich he is! He's got five goats."

But money is important. It's easier to carry around than livestock, and with accepted ratios, easier to make change. Also, you don't need to feed it. Added bonus: you can bury it in the back yard, and dig it up a year later, still worth as much as the day you buried it. Try doing that with a chicken.

I guess the point I'm not really getting at very well is that it's not enough to have stuff, it's not even enough to have enough stuff to trade, capitalism requires that it be possible to keep the excess of value that is created in that trade.

[myrkul]

Other livestock, as well. "Look how rich he is! He's got five goats."

But money is important. It's easier to carry around than livestock, and with accepted ratios, easier to make change. Also, you don't need to feed it. Added bonus: you can bury it in the back yard, and dig it up a year later, still worth as much as the day you buried it. Try doing that with a chicken.

I guess the point I'm not really getting at very well is that it's not enough to have stuff, it's not even enough to have enough stuff to trade, capitalism requires that it be possible to keep the excess of value that is created in that trade.

Yes, but that store need not be long-term. Did you play that island game MoonShadow linked to? You get to "keep" the excess value in the form of a better meal.

[Richy_T]

Yes, but that store need not be long-term. Did you play that island game MoonShadow linked to? You get to "keep" the excess value in the form of a better meal.

I would say it has to be at least medium term for capitalism. You gots to have the capital itself.

[myrkul]

Yes, but that store need not be long-term. Did you play that island game MoonShadow linked to? You get to "keep" the excess value in the form of a better meal.

I would say it has to be at least medium term for capitalism. You gots to have the capital itself.

At the most basic level, there are three types of capital: Time, Space, and Matter (Energy). Physics tells us that Matter and Energy are interchangeable, so I'll just treat them as the same thing: Matter. Physics also tells us that space and time are fundamentally interlinked, but practically we treat them very differently, so I'll keep them separate, but it may help to remember that Time is essentially just a 4th dimension of Space, albeit one we are extremely limited in our ability to traverse.

When we are born, we are granted some of this capital: an amount of Matter that comprises our bodies, and an unknown amount of Time. In order to gain anything else in the world, we must trade some of this capital, hopefully to our benefit. The first 18 years of our life are traded for the skills we will need to extend the rest of our time as much as possible. Perhaps your parents have granted you some Space, but more likely, you'll have to trade some of your precious Time for it, and for the Matter you will need to keep your own Matter chugging along.

Money makes this process easier, and more efficient, because instead of working directly for your landlord, or grocer and trading groceries for your rent, you can do something else, and use money to buy your groceries and to pay your rent. Money is an abstraction, and a convenient store of value. You could simply buy a lot of Space or Matter with your Time, and sell it off as needed, but it's much more efficient if you have an abstraction of value.

All you really need for capitalism is your body, and a willingness to trade some of your time for something of value.

[myrkul]

Yes, but that store need not be long-term. Did you play that island game MoonShadow linked to? You get to "keep" the excess value in the form of a better meal.

I would say it has to be at least medium term for capitalism. You gots to have the capital itself.

At the most basic level, there are three types of capital: Time, Space, and Matter (Energy). Physics tells us...

Why choose those particular things as fundamentals?

Because I like to live in the world described by physics, not in faerieland.

Just for the sake of argument, how about: Spirit, Qualia, and Ether?

Spirit or "life force" would be the basis for all human energy: motivation, will power, drive, passion, the potential for life.

Qualia would be all subjective experience: feelings, music, colours, sensations, awareness, time, death...

Ether would be whatever is "out there": matter, energy, information -- the material universe and whatever holds it together.

Thus the basis for all exchanges -- for everything -- would be consuming Spirit to provide Qualia. Ether would be the canvas, the most basic currency, which allows actual life or "flow of life". I think it could be valid to call Spirit 'capital'. Although I don't see how more of it could be acquired (presumably only Qualia can be acquired), a very low-power Quale might act as a fuel gauge hinting at how much Spirit is left in storage.

I have never seen such naked mysticism attempting to masquerade as science.

[Rassah]

Yes, but that store need not be long-term. Did you play that island game MoonShadow linked to? You get to "keep" the excess value in the form of a better meal.

I would say it has to be at least medium term for capitalism. You gots to have the capital itself.

At the most basic level, there are three types of capital: Time, Space, and Matter (Energy). Physics tells us...

Why choose those particular things as fundamentals?

Just for the sake of argument, how about: Spirit, Qualia, and Ether?

You can't really give someone your spirit or qualia. You can't even measure them. And if you can't measure them, there's no way to assign a value to them.

[Grant]

What other requirements are there, if any? And why might they be needed?

Capitalism already exists in biology. Cells trade resources with eachother. Look inside yourself

[Rassah]

Others have suggested that there only needs to be at least one person for there to be Capitalism. There's a resource, there's scarcity... And subjective value isn't measurable anyway. Seems OK to me!

You can measure things like time that takes to do something and amount of labor or effort needed for it, which is required for single person capitalism. You can't really measure your spirit or mood.

[hashman]

After reading through this thread I still have absolutely zero clue what "capitalism" means.

The only clear thing about it is that nobody is using the same definition.

[Snipes777]

After reading through this thread I still have absolutely zero clue what "capitalism" means.

The only clear thing about it is that nobody is using the same definition.

+1

80% of debate between intellectually honest people can be solved by defining the terms.

[Rassah]

After reading through this thread I still have absolutely zero clue what "capitalism" means.

The only clear thing about it is that nobody is using the same definition.

Amen to that!

Perhaps history has the answer? At some point the Russians had their Communism, so in the spirit of competition, the Americans had to find a name for their "Capital...-ism"?

Even what Russia had wasn't actually communism... 

[anonymous_acc]

[bb113]

After reading through this thread I still have absolutely zero clue what "capitalism" means.

The only clear thing about it is that nobody is using the same definition.

+1

80% of debate between intellectually honest people can be solved by defining the terms.

I'm thinking, the minimum prerequisites are:
1) No central bank.
2) Only tax is a sales tax that is the same percent of all purchases.
3) Taxes are only used to fund defense and justice system.

Perhaps some kind of safety net could be devised that also would allow capitalism as well, I'm not sure on that one.

Edit: 4) No entities that get special justice systems (i.e corporations)

[myrkul]

After reading through this thread I still have absolutely zero clue what "capitalism" means.

The only clear thing about it is that nobody is using the same definition.

+1

80% of debate between intellectually honest people can be solved by defining the terms.

I'm thinking, the minimum prerequisites are:
1) No central bank.
2) Only tax is a sales tax that is the same percent of all purchases.
3) Taxes are only used to fund defense and justice system.

Perhaps some kind of safety net could be devised that also would allow capitalism as well, I'm not sure on that one.

Edit: 4) No entities that get special justice systems (i.e corporations)

I think you've clearly defined the maximum level of government that will not interfere with capitalism (at least not much), but you've not really touched the definition of capitalism, nor the minimum requirements for capitalism.

[bb113]

After reading through this thread I still have absolutely zero clue what "capitalism" means.

The only clear thing about it is that nobody is using the same definition.

+1

80% of debate between intellectually honest people can be solved by defining the terms.

I'm thinking, the minimum prerequisites are:
1) No central bank.
2) Only tax is a sales tax that is the same percent of all purchases.
3) Taxes are only used to fund defense and justice system.

Perhaps some kind of safety net could be devised that also would allow capitalism as well, I'm not sure on that one.

Edit: 4) No entities that get special justice systems (i.e corporations)

I think you've clearly defined the maximum level of government that will not interfere with capitalism (at least not much), but you've not really touched the definition of capitalism, nor the minimum requirements for capitalism.

Well, lets add to the list then. I think a concise definition may be difficult to pin down. Actually now I'm interested in the social net question. Can there be a government funded social safety net consistent with "capitalism"? I'll make a spin off thread.

[Richy_T]

Well, lets add to the list then. I think a concise definition may be difficult to pin down. Actually now I'm interested in the social net question. Can there be a government funded social safety net consistent with "capitalism"? I'll make a spin off thread.

Shortcut to the answer: Is theft consistent with capitalism. I guess it depends what your definition of consistent is. Remember, there was capitalism even in communism. In many ways, it's incorrect to call capitalism an ism.

[TheButterZone]

The absence of any form of modern, operational government?

[MoonShadow]

Well, lets add to the list then. I think a concise definition may be difficult to pin down. Actually now I'm interested in the social net question. Can there be a government funded social safety net consistent with "capitalism"? I'll make a spin off thread.

Shortcut to the answer: Is theft consistent with capitalism. I guess it depends what your definition of consistent is. Remember, there was capitalism even in communism. In many ways, it's incorrect to call capitalism an ism.

And that is exactly what I've been trying to say.  The very word "capitalism" did not exist before it's use by Karl Marx, and it entered common use only in contrast to the economic system he also defined as "communism".  Capitalism, even just as a contrast to communism, is simply the macro appearance of the many laws of economics when individuals are (generally) left to make their voluntary arrangements without third party (governments & other criminal organizations) interference.  The degree to which the people are left alone is also the degree to which a society is "capitalist".  And unlike just about every -ism that I'm aware of, capitalism doesn't require widespread agreement with and/or compliance with it's edicts.  In short, capitalism (from an economic perspective, not a political one) is the default condition of any society, while undisturbed by war or politics.  

[xxjs]

The Hollandische Mercurius uses capitalists in 1633 and 1654 to refer to owners of capital

From wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#Etymology_and_early_usage