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Author Topic: Why Socialism is the key  (Read 33161 times)
chanchel
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February 25, 2016, 05:31:47 PM
 #81

The truth is we wouldn't have the technological advancements that we have without capitalism and free enterprise.  Computers, cell phones, etc etc are here because of capitalism and free enterprise.  So you could say that this forum wouldn't even exist without those things.  The socialist countries are not making huge advancements and contributions to medicine, technology or any other field.  They may make minor contributions but nothing that truly changes the way things are done.  Apple, GE, Samsung (south korea is not socialist) and many, many other companies that produce game changing products do not come from a socialist country because you cannot thrive in such an environment.  I grew up in a small town in Iowa, my parents barely made $40k between the 2 of them, so we weren't poor but we sure as heck weren't rich.  I obtained an education on my own, I put myself through school by working my butt off.  Now, I own an IT company that services hundreds of clients in the Las Vegas area.  I couldn't do that under a socialist government.  Don't fool yourselves into thinking that big government is the way to fix things.

Again, please educate yourself a bit Americans Smiley

Please understand that decades of Cold War biased all of you.
Socialism is NOT capitalism.
Socialism isn't incompatible with free entreprise. On the contrary, socialism is here to help anyone going in life with more or less equal chances and thus allowing anyone to become a successful entrepreneur.

You could do EXACTLY what you've done in a socialist country.
the difference is that your school would be paid, your healthcare would be paid, the institutions would be paid... Everything would be paid fore, and in exchange, when you become successful, the state will take a part of what you earn. Exactly in the same way that if you invest in a company you'll earn part of the profits. It's an investment in future generations.

You are the one who apparently doesn't know what socialism is.  I never said it was communism, but communism is an extreme version of socialism.  You don't understand what a free market is or what capitalism has done for you.  Where was the automobile invented?  Where was the computer invented?  Where was the telephone invented?  On and on it goes, these are the result of free enterprise not government controlled entities.  I do not want to be forced to "pay my fair share", because that is what socialism is about.  It takes away all incentive to become successful.  I have to pay for everyone's education, healthcare, etc?  I should be obligated to take care of me and my children.  If I feel the desire to help others then I can, but should not be forced to do it.  There is a reason that America has been the most inventive and most powerful nation on earth for a years and years, because we aren't a socialist country.  Socialism removes true free enterprise, it will never ever thrive under it.  How many multi billion dollar companies are headquartered in socialist countries?  A few, but most are not.  Because what happens when the government sees a company thriving and they then deem it necessary to control because that would be for the greater good?  I have lived in socialist countries (mexico and spain) and live in the US.  Socialism is not the answer, nor will it ever be.  How many self employed people are there in socialist countries?  According to your statement above, socialist countries are just full of self employed people, which just isn't true.  When you take away the people's free will to take care of others then that is the devil's tool.  America has become more and more socialist and I hate it, it will ruin this great country.
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February 25, 2016, 05:50:35 PM
Last edit: February 25, 2016, 06:02:52 PM by KiwiParty
 #82

What a harsh discussion?
The difference between socialism and communism is most likely that the latter is not a mere ideology, but puts a lot of emphasis on political and economical issues as well,
while socialism has a strong emphasis on being an mere ideology. Reality is different though, as parts of socialism can be found in every democracy of today.
With communism this wouldnt work out this well.  

I think the biggest difference is their origins or intention.
While communism evolving around Marx tries to totally abolish any form of a privileged class, the elimination of any form of cultural hierarchy,
socialism based on famous persons like Jean-Jacques Rousseau tries to have influence on the system of values itself which are embodied in the constitution.
So, socialist are aware of modern forms of government and constitutional rights, and accept them, Marxists mostly didnt, being aware of the negative effects of aristocracy, or oligarchy.
While many people think they are literally the same, the idea behind both differs somewhat. But both dislike elitist groups.

Another fact, socialism is not contrary to individualism or capitalism, nor monarchy or aristocracy, but to any cultural form of despotism.
Lots of people get confused by this, and think socialism is mainly contrary to capitalism.
In fact, capitalism in its most extreme form does arguably share some similarities with despotism.
However, this is not the main idea behind capitalism, its a negative effect.
There are so many ideas and concepts behind capitalism, they are too many to list them all here.
It is not an ad hoc solution, but only one that strictly follows the rules of a free market, trading & currency, investments and companies, profit and property.
You can make your money work! This wouldnt have been possible in our past kingdoms, where citizens used to be serfs. They just were NOT allowed to do that!
For this reason, capitalists dont see themselves as slave traders, but the opposite. This bears some truth, as history proves.
In theory socialism wouldnt have the same problem with such issues, as long as the rulers would fulfill the demands of their citizens. the welfare state.


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February 25, 2016, 06:38:36 PM
 #83

You're in favor of free markets? So you're in favor of one company ruling the world then?

Yes I'm in favor of FREE markets. FREE meaning that there is not a government body that can be hijacked and used to grant and maintain monopolies. All of the things which lead to monopolies in a capitalist system are entirely due to government.

If you'll read any of the material I linked to, you would start to understand what ALL government is. I don't care if you want to call it Socialism, Communism, Fascism, etc. Those are bullshit ideals that all stem from the same fundamental belief. The belief that the use of coercion is morally acceptable. Socialism is a forced redistribution of wealth through various methods such as taxation, tariffs, and subsidies. It violates private property (your right to the products of your labor) in the same way that all government does.

Now please go ahead and explain how one company (without using government) would rule the world.


If you see no problem with an incredible small elite owning 99% of both power and wealth, then you're right, continue with free market and capitalism.

Again, you are not understanding what a free market is. Please don't confuse it with what's called Capitalism these days.



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February 25, 2016, 06:44:13 PM
 #84

What a harsh discussion?

The discussion is harsh in the same way that if somebody came on these forums and exclaimed "Why Nazism is the Key!", I would denounce it and laugh them out of the room.

It's disgusting. And trying to claim that we're really just confusing Socialism with Communism shows the OP and many others on this thread have no idea regarding the moral philosophy behind their theories.

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February 25, 2016, 09:58:23 PM
 #85

Milton Friedman - Socialism is Force

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYeYPcougmA
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February 29, 2016, 11:35:59 AM
 #86

I deleted what i Said i made a mistake i got Socialism confused with capitalism, i won't comment on Socialism !!!! . I did google it http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/100214/what-difference-between-communism-and-socialism.asp

I was off topic after i saw my mistake so shot me.

Shouldn't this be posted in Politics & Society !!!

cya

No problem. We all do mistakes from times to times but it's especially common concerning extremely complex notions such as economic and social theories! Wink

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February 29, 2016, 11:39:45 AM
 #87

Ok I say it for all Americans reading this thread, you all seem to have a problem with that so here it is:

SOCIALISM IS NOT COMMUNISM

If you wanna know the differences just google them. Those two things are incredibly different!

Why are the 2 incredibly different?  Huh
Communism is just an extreme form of socialism.
This site gives a good comparison of the two.

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Communism_vs_Socialism

It's the same thing as saying fascism is an extreme form of patriotism  Tongue

Communism: Everyone gets exactly the same thing. No personnal entrepreneurship is allowed. State owns everything.
Socialism: Parts of profits are distributed to the population in order to prevent capital and companies to own everything in the end. Basic needs of every one such as food and education are taken in charge by the state in order to make everyone starts in life with similar chances.

They're NOT the same. In socialism personnal entrepreneurship is completely encouraged!

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February 29, 2016, 11:53:15 AM
 #88

You are the one who apparently doesn't know what socialism is.  I never said it was communism, but communism is an extreme version of socialism.  You don't understand what a free market is or what capitalism has done for you.  Where was the automobile invented?  Where was the computer invented?  Where was the telephone invented?  On and on it goes, these are the result of free enterprise not government controlled entities.  I do not want to be forced to "pay my fair share", because that is what socialism is about.  It takes away all incentive to become successful.  I have to pay for everyone's education, healthcare, etc?  I should be obligated to take care of me and my children.  If I feel the desire to help others then I can, but should not be forced to do it.  There is a reason that America has been the most inventive and most powerful nation on earth for a years and years, because we aren't a socialist country.  Socialism removes true free enterprise, it will never ever thrive under it.  How many multi billion dollar companies are headquartered in socialist countries?  A few, but most are not.  Because what happens when the government sees a company thriving and they then deem it necessary to control because that would be for the greater good?  I have lived in socialist countries (mexico and spain) and live in the US.  Socialism is not the answer, nor will it ever be.  How many self employed people are there in socialist countries?  According to your statement above, socialist countries are just full of self employed people, which just isn't true.  When you take away the people's free will to take care of others then that is the devil's tool.  America has become more and more socialist and I hate it, it will ruin this great country.

Again you're wrong and don't understand what it's all about.

First you say there are no self employed people or small companies in socialist countries.
Well France is one of the most socialist countries and 99,8% of our companies are small ones (under 20 persons).

Socialism isn't about removing all and any incentive of being successful. It's about being sure that you being successful profits the whole society.

Without socialism what happens? Companies and people being successful gets money. A lot of. Hence they get power, a lot of. Hence they get more money and more power even more easily!
A totally free market can only leads to monopoles! As the best company will grow and grow and absorbs everything!

You wan't to live without "pay my fair share". As you wish. But it's what makes USA one of the most unequal countries in the world. It's why in the USA student get to take 250k$ loan to get educated.

I prefer live in a country where education and healthcare is free for everyone. Which means every children starts with more or less the same chances of success. I don't see what's wrong with that.

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February 29, 2016, 12:00:48 PM
 #89

You're in favor of free markets? So you're in favor of one company ruling the world then?

Yes I'm in favor of FREE markets. FREE meaning that there is not a government body that can be hijacked and used to grant and maintain monopolies. All of the things which lead to monopolies in a capitalist system are entirely due to government.

If you'll read any of the material I linked to, you would start to understand what ALL government is. I don't care if you want to call it Socialism, Communism, Fascism, etc. Those are bullshit ideals that all stem from the same fundamental belief. The belief that the use of coercion is morally acceptable. Socialism is a forced redistribution of wealth through various methods such as taxation, tariffs, and subsidies. It violates private property (your right to the products of your labor) in the same way that all government does.

Now please go ahead and explain how one company (without using government) would rule the world.


It's incredibly easy and it's already happening!

Look at Google! Look at the food industry!!
If government does nothing, then one company (the best) will get bigger and bigger. Then it will slowly absorb any concurrent company or destroy it! In a FREE market as you say, the best company will continue to grow until nobody can get it down. And then it will have a complete and absolute monopoly.

The food industry is currently only 6 companies when it was still hundreds if not thousands only a few decades ago. American banks were dozens, now only 5 of them control everything.

Free market has only one consequence: concentration of power and wealth in a few companies. The richest get richer, the poorest get poorer.

If you don't mind living in something like this, go on and live your American dream.

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February 29, 2016, 12:06:11 PM
 #90

What a harsh discussion?

The discussion is harsh in the same way that if somebody came on these forums and exclaimed "Why Nazism is the Key!", I would denounce it and laugh them out of the room.

It's disgusting. And trying to claim that we're really just confusing Socialism with Communism shows the OP and many others on this thread have no idea regarding the moral philosophy behind their theories.



Oh yeah! How horrible is the moral of socialism!!!

Here is the moral and the base of socialism:
-All citizens should have access to the basic needs which are food, education and healthcare.
-All citizens should have equal chance of success (which means for example that the schools of high education have to make anonymous selections)
-The successful citizens and companies should pay a bit more in order to redistribute the wealth and be sure that inequalites in society do not grow bigger and bigger

Please explain me how it's similar to nazism.

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February 29, 2016, 01:24:11 PM
 #91


Here is the moral and the base of socialism:
-All citizens should have access to the basic needs which are food, education and healthcare.

 
So you require slavery, giving yourself "the right" to force other people to work and give you their goods and services for free.




Quote
-All citizens should have equal chance of success


So you will use the violence of the government to punish people for the crimes of being smarter, healthier, or harder-working.




Quote
-The successful citizens and companies should pay a bit more


So really you lied when you said all citizens should have equal chance of success? 

Or do you really mean that no one will be allowed a chance to succeed, because they will be punished for trying?

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February 29, 2016, 01:39:41 PM
 #92


Here is the moral and the base of socialism:
-All citizens should have access to the basic needs which are food, education and healthcare.

 
So you require slavery, giving yourself "the right" to force other people to work and give you their goods and services for free.

What??? What are you talking about? Who's giving their goods and services for free???
Quote


Quote
-All citizens should have equal chance of success


So you will use the violence of the government to punish people for the crimes of being smarter, healthier, or harder-working.


What again? Who's being punished by the government for such thing? What you're saying has absolutely no sense!!!
Quote

Quote
-The successful citizens and companies should pay a bit more


So really you lied when you said all citizens should have equal chance of success? 

But what the fuck are you saying? All citizens have equal chances of success, which means once they are successful they got to pay a bit more in order to give the same chances they had to the next generation!
Quote

Or do you really mean that no one will be allowed a chance to succeed, because they will be punished for trying?
But what the heck?? You seem to have a really terrible and barbaric vision of socialism dude Oo
Nobody will punish you for trying to be successful! On the contrary in socialist countries you'll be helped by the government to launch your activity! France invests millions every year to help young entrepreneurs to create their start-up!

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February 29, 2016, 02:53:17 PM
 #93

So you're saying you don't understand the ideas you're promoting.

If people get goods and services for free, someone else has to work for free.  Slavery.

If the government enforces "equal chances", then it must punish people who have "better chances" in order to make them equal.

If the government takes more money from "successful" people, then the government punishes success.

Aren't you aware that the government can impose fines and charge people money for breaking the law?
Under your system, here are some examples of crimes that could result in a $1,000,000 fine:
 - Fraud
 - Trafficking illegal drugs
 - Being successful
 - Helping the economy
 - Working harder than other people
 - Inventing a new medicine that saves people's lives
 - Inventing a new technology that improves the quality of life for millions of people
 - Providing something more valuable to other people than what anyone else is providing



Since these are the activities you want to punish,
these are the activities you are discouraging.


Here are the activities you will encourage by paying people to do them:

 - Staying home all day
 - Getting drunk or high every day
 - Never getting a job
 - Not producing anything for society
 - Never doing anything useful for another human being
 - Not providing for your own children
 - Getting pregnant at the age of 15
 - Keeping children away from their own father




Why do you want to reward bad decisions while punishing responsibility?

It made sense during the Cold War when these policies were promoted by our enemies as subversive weapons to destroy Western Civilization, but why are you still promoting them? 


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February 29, 2016, 03:20:53 PM
 #94

AHAHAHAH xD

Ok I just laughed far too much! Well it's a bit sad to see that an actual human can think so little but it was funny in its own way xD

I'll still try to explain you why your reasoning is false. But please take back your brain from TV, seems you let it there.

So you're saying you don't understand the ideas you're promoting.

If people get goods and services for free, someone else has to work for free.  Slavery.

Nah, just that somebody else is paying for it, that's called tax.
Quote

If the government enforces "equal chances", then it must punish people who have "better chances" in order to make them equal.


Nah, you don't have to lower the chances of some, you can also increase the chances of the others.
Quote

If the government takes more money from "successful" people, then the government punishes success.

Whaou, ok in this way you're right if you consider that taking more money from those who have more is the same as "punishing peopl" then yes it is.
Quote

Aren't you aware that the government can impose fines and charge people money for breaking the law?
Under your system, here are some examples of crimes that could result in a $1,000,000 fine:
 - Fraud
Cause it's not punishable? You feel like Fraud shouldn't be punished?
Quote
- Trafficking illegal drugs
That's the mere principle of "illegal" you know, what would you like to be done on illegal things? Rewarding?
Quote
- Being successful
Nope, being successful leads to an increase of taxation, not a fine.
Quote
- Helping the economy
Nope, if you invest the money in the economy then your not taxed, it would be stupid to do so.
Quote
- Working harder than other people
Nope again I don't even see how you could fine someone for that
Quote
- Inventing a new medicine that saves people's lives
No, in no way, I mean what the heck?
Quote
- Inventing a new technology that improves the quality of life for millions of people
But what the fuck are you saying exactly please? Who would be punished for that? Give me one example in the entire socialist countries history!
Quote
- Providing something more valuable to other people than what anyone else is providing
Ok I'm a bit tired of repeating myself so same answer as above.
Quote



Since these are the activities you want to punish,
these are the activities you are discouraging.


Here are the activities you will encourage by paying people to do them:

 - Staying home all day
Well if you do this you'll earn barely enough to survive. But yes it's possible if you do nothing more than eating and sleeping all day. Experience shows that less than 0.1% of the population is even using this universal base income and most of them actively look for a job and find one after some time.
Quote
- Getting drunk or high every day
What? What's the link?
Quote
- Never getting a job
Hmm... You get paid only if you spent some time working and the time you get paid is proportional to the time you worked. The goal is to let you some time to find another job but if you do nothing you won't get paid for years doing nothing.
Quote
- Not producing anything for society
Same as above
Quote
- Never doing anything useful for another human being
Dude it's tiring seriously, same as above.
Quote
- Not providing for your own children
Didn't understand this one
Quote
- Getting pregnant at the age of 15
Actually it's the contrary, free education leads to less teenage pregnancy sorry.
Quote
- Keeping children away from their own father
I don't see why, seems you have a strange vision of what socialism even mean.
Quote




Why do you want to reward bad decisions while punishing responsibility?
Not the point, the idea is that in a socialist state you're never alone, the state is always here to back you up if you're in need. In fact it's much easier to create things and take risks and responsability knowing that even if you fail the state will take care of your children!
Quote

It made sense during the Cold War when these policies were promoted by our enemies as subversive weapons to destroy Western Civilization, but why are you still promoting them?  



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February 29, 2016, 03:42:11 PM
Last edit: February 29, 2016, 05:10:29 PM by BARR_Official
 #95

So you're saying you don't understand the ideas you're promoting.

If people get goods and services for free, someone else has to work for free.  Slavery.

Nah, just that somebody else is paying for it, that's called tax.


Somebody else has to work for it,
but they don't get to keep what they work for.

That's called slavery.




Quote
Nah, you don't have to lower the chances of some, you can also increase the chances of the others.


So you're saying that billionaires can exist without lowering anyone else's chances of economic equality?

Or in fact does your plan enforce equality by bringing everyone down to a lower level?




Quote
Whaou, ok in this way you're right if you consider that taking more money from those who have more is the same as "punishing peopl" then yes it is.


Yes, taking money from people is the same as taking money from people.  

Can you explain any effective difference between taking someone's money to discourage them from selling drugs,
and your plan of taking someone's money to discourage them from curing cancer?




Quote
Hmm... You get paid only if you spent some time working and the time you get paid is proportional to the time you worked.


So you want to let disabled people starve?  

Or are you just lying about people only getting paid if they worked?




Quote
Not the point, the idea is that in a socialist state you're never alone, the state is always here to back you up if you're in need.


It is sick and disgusting for you to try to replace family and religion with government.

But at least you've admitted why you want to destroy society -
If people have families, if children have fathers,
then they won't turn to you and other government elites to control their lives.




Quote
In fact it's much easier to create things and take risks and responsability knowing that even if you fail the state will take care of your children!


So now you're admitting that you want to reward failure.

You wasted everyone's time denying it,
because you know people hate your ideas and will never agree unless you lie about what you want to do.


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February 29, 2016, 03:57:16 PM
 #96

So you're saying you don't understand the ideas you're promoting.

If people get goods and services for free, someone else has to work for free.  Slavery.

Nah, just that somebody else is paying for it, that's called tax.


Somebody else has to work for it,
but they don't get to keep what they work for.

That's called slavery.




Quote
Nah, you don't have to lower the chances of some, you can also increase the chances of the others.


So you're saying that billionaires can exist without lowering anyone else's chances of economic equality?

Or in fact does your plan enforce equality by bringing everyone down to a lower level?




Quote
Whaou, ok in this way you're right if you consider that taking more money from those who have more is the same as "punishing peopl" then yes it is.


Yes, taking money from people is the same as taking money from people.  

Can you explain any effective difference between taking someone's money to discourage them from selling drugs,
and your plan of taking someone's money to discourage them from curing cancer?




Quote
Hmm... You get paid only if you spent some time working and the time you get paid is proportional to the time you worked.


So you want to let disabled people starve?  

Or are you just lying about people only getting paid if they worked?




Quote
Not the point, the idea is that in a socialist state you're never alone, the state is always here to back you up if you're in need.


It is sick and disgusting for you to try to replace family and religion with government.

But at least you've admitted why you want to destroy society -
If people have familes, if children have fathers,
then they won't turn to you and other government elites to control their lives.




Quote
In fact it's much easier to create things and take risks and responsability knowing that even if you fail the state will take care of your children!


So now you're admitting that you want to reward failure.

You wasted everyone's time denying it,
because you know people hate your ideas and will never agree unless you lie about what you want to do.



Hey funny how you ignore 80% of my answers and only took the ones you wanted no? ^^

Anyway I won't lose much more time about this.

Yes the idea is socialism is to have a redistribution of wealth. Yes the idea of socialism is that the state is here to provide education and health care to EVERYONE and yes the idea of a socialist state is that the rich have to pay a bit more in order for the children of the poor to have a chance to access to a better education. I don't see what's wrong with that.

Let's take it from the other way around:
I'm from a rather poor family. I couldn't pay for my studies. thanks to socialism I had the same chances to access good schools and as I'm hard worker I was able to have a great engineering school.
What is wrong with that? Now I'll create technologies that will help people and society.

What you forget in your flawed reasoning is that numerous people could work and make a better world but they can't as they will never be able to afford the studies.

Socialism is here to give them this opportunity.

Now tell me how bas it is.

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February 29, 2016, 04:00:45 PM
 #97


It is sick and disgusting for you to try to replace family and religion with government.

But at least you've admitted why you want to destroy society -
If people have familes, if children have fathers,
then they won't turn to you and other government elites to control their lives.

So what about those who have no family or those who have a poor family or those who have a family that doesn't want to help them?

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February 29, 2016, 04:05:04 PM
 #98

The only thing killing socialism is greed. Greed and corruption.

...and itself, by ignoring human nature. Greed is the main driving force behind development. Should I quote Gordon Gekko?

Quote
How do you fight it? By creating a democracy. but a true one not one of our shitty Western false democracies! One using the blockchain to make people vote for every law and every constitution modification! That's what should be done! Then you would see that we have far enough money, we're just letting private investors keeping it.

So, then Switzerland is a socialist dreamland? Just because of they doing what you said, but they still looks pretty much capitalists Smiley.
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February 29, 2016, 04:46:15 PM
 #99


It is sick and disgusting for you to try to replace family and religion with government.

But at least you've admitted why you want to destroy society -
If people have families, if children have fathers,
then they won't turn to you and other government elites to control their lives.

So what about those who have no family or those who have a poor family or those who have a family that doesn't want to help them?



We need to encourage people to raise their own children.
Your ideas encourage people to abandon their own children.

The government can't get a woman pregnant,
the government can't give birth to a child,
and the government can't love a child or raise it.

Because of socialist policies that value government control over human rights,
fathers and children have had their rights taken away.

Just like everything you've talked about,
paying people to do something encourages them to do it more.

When the government started paying women to leave their husbands
and take children away from their own fathers,
people started doing it more. 

After more people started taking that bribe, it became commonplace.
After it was commonplace, it became accepted.

And now millions of children never meet a male authority figure until the first time they're arrested.\

Because of socialist policies that were designed to replace families with government.
And people went along with it because there were offered profit for it.

Money.  Greed.  That's the only appeal your system offers to people.
You use a classic con artist technique by luring people with promises that are too good to be true.
Their own selfishness blinds them to the obvious fact that they're being robbed.  By you.


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February 29, 2016, 04:56:41 PM
 #100

Socialism is the key.
Yes a key to your grave. Cheesy
Any one that says difrent has no real idea what it is.
To what it leads to and what huge cost on poor people it has.
Socialism is an enemy to society and single person as well.

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