Why Socialism is the key

[RealBitcoin]

I'm simply objecting to your and others binary approach to the issue.

Very few proponents of socialism wants communism. Very few countries can be said to be without socialist influence. Hong Kong was a British territory during a time where Britain was strongly left leaning, so they weren't a purely capitalist entity back then either. 

Oh, and btw, The United States is not the most prosperous nation on earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

Of course socialists dont want communism, but that is where it will lead to after it's finished sucking dry the host body.

Socialism is a parasite system where you suck off the prosperity of the free market and redistribute it between the parasites.

When there is nothing more to be sucked off, everything becomes nationalized and it turns into communism, where the parasites suck off eachother.

I`ve lived under communism and I tell you it's not an paradise utopia, it's the most vicious 'everyone for himself' type of system that you can imagine, with absolute no cooperation with eachother, everyone is a snitch rat, that is betraying everyone to the gestapo for 30 pieces of silver, like Judas did.


We capitalists try to design a perfect immune system that makes capitalism immune to parasites to never let parasites again leech off productive people.

Bitcoin is one of them, no wealth redistribution here.

[1714908935]

1714908935

[Fatman3001]

I'm simply objecting to your and others binary approach to the issue.

Very few proponents of socialism wants communism. Very few countries can be said to be without socialist influence. Hong Kong was a British territory during a time where Britain was strongly left leaning, so they weren't a purely capitalist entity back then either. 

Oh, and btw, The United States is not the most prosperous nation on earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

Of course socialists dont want communism, but that is where it will lead to after it's finished sucking dry the host body.

Socialism is a parasite system where you suck off the prosperity of the free market and redistribute it.

When there is nothing more to be sucked off, everything becomes nationalized and it turns into communism.


We capitalists try to design a perfect immune system that makes capitalism immune to parasites to never let parasites again leech off productive people.

I don't mean to cause offense, but what you are saying is complete nonsense.

I know it's very in vogue to say stuff completely detached from reality (with Ronald McDonald winning the republican nomination and all), but unless you're running for public office I don't really see the point in hammering on about it here.

[RealBitcoin]

It's very hard to get rich, but imagine being rich, and constantly having an army of parasites on your tail that demand 24/7 to give them your money.

It's as if you're a human and have billions of bacteria around you demanding a piece of your body, it's exactly the same.


Of course for bacteria you have developed an immune system that protects you until your death. But for socialism you are just supposed to spread your legs and not resist? Well hell no, socialism is a disease, an virus infection of the economy that must be fought off with proper medicine, and a strong immune system.

[Fatman3001]

It's very hard to get rich, but imagine being rich, and constantly having an army of parasites on your tail that demand 24/7 to give them your money.

It's as if you're a human and have billions of bacteria around you demanding a piece of your body, it's exactly the same.


Of course for bacteria you have developed an immune system that protects you until your death. But for socialism you are just supposed to spread your legs and not resist? Well hell no, socialism is a disease, an virus infection of the economy that must be fought off with proper medicine, and a strong immune system.

What's the point of the bacterias, ponzis, virus crap? Can't you describe the problem you're seeing? It's not a virus, it's not a bacteria, it's not a ponzi.

And no, it isn't very hard to get rich for some people. Some people are very interested in society and economics and see genuine opportunities everywhere, some people love nothing more than waking up at 5.30 AM, talking to customers all day, making sales, organizing their business and leaving for home at 9 PM in the evening.

Other people are content with driving a truck or painting houses. They're happy to teach kids to play musical instruments and having lectures on literature. Quite a few of these are shit at what Warren Buffett does, but that doesn't make them less valuable. Even Warren Buffett says these people need to be saved from the increasing wealth discrepancy we're seeing in the world today. He understands that what he does so easily and so happily, is impossible for most people. Sure there are those who struggled to get where they are. But that goes for both rich and poor.

[RealBitcoin]

What's the point of the bacterias, ponzis, virus crap? Can't you describe the problem you're seeing? It's not a virus, it's not a bacteria, it's not a ponzi.

What is it then? What is socialism then the core of it if not theft and looting?

And no, it isn't very hard to get rich for some people. Some people are very interested in society and economics and see genuine opportunities everywhere, some people love nothing more than waking up at 5.30 AM, talking to customers all day, making sales, organizing their business and leaving for home at 9 PM in the evening.

Ok sure, but then the teacher wants to rob the salesman and the car mechanic wants to rob the banker.

How about just everone mind their own business and stop stealing from eachother.

Civilization is measured by how wise and cooperating people are. And a systematic robbery system like socialism is barbarian.

[MedaR]

I don't understand why many think in socialism there is no progress only stagnation?
Yes they are maybe stuck in time but they have quality, and this quality is so unbelievably cheap.

"Life expectancy is 77.5 years, one of the world's highest. And until not so long ago, there was one doctor for every 170 citizens - the highest patient-per-doctor ratio in the world. "
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/06/201265115527622647.html

"Cuba has a possible lung cancer vaccine that America can now test"
http://www.vox.com/2015/5/16/8613019/cuba-lung-cancer-vaccine

Russia was communist country and conduct many researcher in honeybee therapy (apitherapy), and they had many achievements in treating rheumatoid arthritis, epilepsy..with bee venom.

I don't know how you can judge by those silly pictures.
Only capitalism can bring you so much joy and happiness and suicidal thoughts after loss only in one day.
 Communism, and socialism are more simple for adopting.





What do you say about Cuba now?
https://www.pinterest.com/explore/varadero-cuba/

[OROBTC]

...

I may have ONE exception to my belief that Socialism is a plague upon any unfortunate country to be under its heel.  That would be the small countries of Scandinavia that are (or were until the recent Muslim rapefugee invasion) relatively monolithic in culture and mentality.

I write this as an observer from what I saw in Denmark, although I am not even close to being an authority on Scandinavia.  While I was in Denmark I found that many of the Danes were against such notions as WalMart, guns, etc, that we Americans think are normal; and take for granted.  For example, the fact that an American poor person could buy $5.00 t-shirts and cheap socks did not impress them, they were OK with their little village shops selling t-shirts for $30.00.

What I believe I found is that they have FEW poor people.  They also have (had anyway) a monolithic culture, they are all "Vikings rowing in the same boat", team players...  Our Danish hosts had no problems with 50% + taxation.

In other words, it's a CULTURAL thing.  The Danes I talked with almost saw their country as one big family (not the way we Americans view our very different melange of cultures).  So maybe Socialism works for THEM.  It does not work (nor "Socialist Lite" of Hillary) for the USA.

[OROBTC]

I don't understand why many think in socialism there is no progress only stagnation?
Yes they are maybe stuck in time but they have quality, and this quality is so unbelievably cheap.

"Life expectancy is 77.5 years, one of the world's highest. And until not so long ago, there was one doctor for every 170 citizens - the highest patient-per-doctor ratio in the world. "
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/06/201265115527622647.html

"Cuba has a possible lung cancer vaccine that America can now test"
http://www.vox.com/2015/5/16/8613019/cuba-lung-cancer-vaccine

Russia was communist country and conduct many researcher in honeybee therapy (apitherapy), and they had many achievements in treating rheumatoid arthritis, epilepsy..with bee venom.

I don't know how you can judge by those silly pictures.
Only capitalism can bring you so much joy and happiness and suicidal thoughts after loss only in one day.
 Communism, and socialism are more simple for adopting.





What do you say about Cuba now?
https://www.pinterest.com/explore/varadero-cuba/

MedaR

My wife and I know some Cuban-Americans, and even a newly arrived Cuban.

Your pretty pictures only show a small facet of Cuban reality.  A couple we know (a Cuban-American and a "Cuban-Cuban") recently went there to visit some of one of their families.  Ahh, Cuba has many health problems that we (USA) resolved, ah, 80 years ago.

Both got sick (bad food).  They report that Cuba smells bad (bad sanitation?).  Neither has any desire to live there (even though they both speak the colloquial Spanish).  They did not say anything about delightful beaches...  I suppose that the beaches will best be enjoyed once Communism falls, and the AMERICAN hotel companies get down there and put up nice resorts with safe food...


EDIT: Ah, forget about spending your Bitcoin in Cuba, it's hard enough to get internet access.  

Oh, and be careful with what you say to to locals, you could get them, or even YOURSELF, into trouble.  Cuban jails are worse than the USA's.

[btcbug]

I don't understand why many think in socialism there is no progress only stagnation?
Yes they are maybe stuck in time

I don't know what to say, are you joking?

...but they have quality, and this quality is so unbelievably cheap.

If I take 95% of the money you earn and then I give you back some of that in the form of food, healthcare, etc., well of course anybody can look at that situation and say, "but look, he's fed, and sheltered, so how can you say Socialism is bad?". That is completely missing the point.

The POINT is that they were forced to turnover 95% of their income in the first place! Which means the individual has no choice in how their own money is spent. The government determines that for them and hence why this translates into shitty quality. There is nothing in place to check the excessive wastes of the government because there is no competitive market. It's unsustainable because eventually more and more of that money is siphoned off by the parasites in power, and/or simply wasted on administration.

Socialists do not understand the difference between actual productive work and unproductive work. I can pay somebody to grow food or I can pay somebody to dig a hole, fill it back in, and repeat everyday. Do you see how bureaucracy is sort of like digging the hole everyday? Sure, it creates a job, but the job is fucking useless as far as producing wealth is concerned. When too many people in society are digging the holes we reach the tipping point and the system collapses. Most countries in the world today are nearing that point.

EDIT:

And you guys can tell me this incorrect, because the USA isn't "technically" Socialist, it's considered Capitalist. Well sorry, but that is just bickering about the details and the "proper" implementation, of which there is no such thing.

While you guys are fighting about the correct way to redistribute those tax dollars to best suit your ideal version of Socialism, the rest of us are saying, "Hey guys, we don't care how you divide them because the principle of forced wealth redistribution will never work". That's what the circus of politics is all about. Politicians fooling their sheep into believing their scheme is the correct one. If you believe there is a proper scheme you will always be a sheep and in the end you will be sheared, possibly slaughtered.

[jaysabi]

Here, I fixed that for you.

There is no true reason that wealth should be held by those who hold it except that they earned it or were peacefully given it by someone who earned it, and in a free and equal society, no one else gets to impose their will on you or what you are allowed to own.

There is no true reason that private property should be owned by personal individuals except that private property is an inherent human right originating from mankind's dominion over the Earth.

There are obvious examples that show those born into poverty have far more hindrances to achieving their "true potential" than those born into wealth, which doesn't justify forcibly taking from people out of a misplaced sense of morality.

There is no true example of a socialist country, nor a capitalist country. They have all been corrupted, which is irrelevant to the question of the morality of the theft necessary to enforce socialism.

Corruption is real. Anyone who thinks that either pure socialism or pure capitalism can work by themselves is deluded.

All governments require the threat and use of force to maintain their status quo.

All people are born.

All people die.

It's much better now.

[jaysabi]

the basic truth is that many people claim either socialism or capitalism as the only obvious reality

they ignore that many decisions are made that have no relevance to either.

how do you judge/admonish a rapist under a capitalist system? rape is not a crime of capital but rather an ethical issue that must reside within a seperate realm

amusingly i'm finding it hard to come up with an example under socialism, the example governments so far have muddied the socialist waters with extreme shades of facism that make it hard to imagine a true socialist culture.

Capitalism and socialism are economic models, and rape is not an economic crime. Ostensibly there would be no difference in how rape is prosecuted under a capitalist or socialist government. The question doesn't even make sense. The economic model employed by a particular government or society has no bearing on how rape is punished.

[LEONPATTON]

I find a lots of people here saying things like "Socialism is the worst thing ever, it doesn't work and it's why the government have so much debt".

Well clearly it is not and socialism is the only way to go.
I'm French, I'm from a socialist country and solidarity is extremely important here.
Here is a common example given by people saying socialism is the worst thing ever: Healthcare costs around 2 billions of debt every year to the country.
So people are saying that we shouldn't give so much. That we shouldn't help each other so much.

I say bullshit nothing more.
The private sector of health is 36 billions every year. Just nationalize this shit and you'll get enough money to repay the health debt, triple the employment, repay part of national debt and lower the taxes!

It's the same for all sectors! What is profitable has been privatised by corrupted politician and only what costs money is left for the state! Another example? Yeah the Highways were sold to private companies! Just after they were repayed by tolls.

The only thing killing socialism is greed. Greed and corruption.

How do you fight it? By creating a democracy. but a true one not one of our shitty Western false democracies! One using the blockchain to make people vote for every law and every constitution modification! That's what should be done! Then you would see that we have far enough money, we're just letting private investors keeping it.

Your exactly what is wrong with Crypto.

[jaysabi]

...

I'm surprised that COLLECTIVISM (Socialism) is so popular among people interested in Bitcoin.  As told over and over above, Socialism takes by force the property of the productive, and gives it to the governing class (who the bulk) and the lazy (who get some crumbs for political support).

The most fundamental right of anyone is the right to be left alone (unmolested).

I'm assuming you're talking about taxation. Just about every country levy taxes. It's not unique to socialism. There are some exceptions, but they've got some rather odd justifications that cannot be universalized.

The United States has a higher level of maximum taxation than most countries with a history of social democratic governments.

Socialism creates a ponzi scheme economy.

They all know that the pension system and endless welfare cannot be funded by taxation, so it feeds on itself and creates a ponzi economy.

The financial ponzi scheme is inevitable under a socialist economy.

Unless you want to choose North Korean economics with 50% yearly inflation and wiping out bank accounts every 2 years. At least North Koreans are honest about it, and dont try to hide their ponzi in financial derivatives.

?

Poorly financed pension systems are not exclusive to countries with socialist governments. One of the things that weighed down GM and Chrysler in the 2008-2009 financial crisis was their massively under financed pension obligations. So they were bailed out with the tax-payers money. Nor do all countries with socialist governments have poorly financed pension systems. In fact, much of Europe have had comprehensive overhauls of their pension systems to make them more sustainable in the future.

As for your admiration of North Korea, I've got nothing.

Pensions are a socialist idea, and the fact that for-profit companies have attempted them has no bearing on the fact that they commonly fail because the idea is unviable writ large. GM and Chrysler had a form of internal socialism to the company, managed with the profits of the business for the benefit of the workers, and when the unviability of the program dragged those companies down, it still sucked in tax payers who had nothing to do with the irresponsible promises those companies made or the fact they they couldn't honor them. And the fact that Europe has to continually undergo "comprehensive overhauls of their pension systems to make them more sustainable in the future" is not because the pension system is economically viable, it's because the programs are not economically viable, and they need to keep scaling back the promises made under the pension programs in order to keep the charade going longer. Pension systems are almost universally under-financed because the socialist concept of pensions is economically unsound.

[Fatman3001]

What's the point of the bacterias, ponzis, virus crap? Can't you describe the problem you're seeing? It's not a virus, it's not a bacteria, it's not a ponzi.

What is it then? What is socialism then the core of it if not theft and looting?

Not those things. Grab a book.

And no, it isn't very hard to get rich for some people. Some people are very interested in society and economics and see genuine opportunities everywhere, some people love nothing more than waking up at 5.30 AM, talking to customers all day, making sales, organizing their business and leaving for home at 9 PM in the evening.

Ok sure, but then the teacher wants to rob the salesman and the car mechanic wants to rob the banker.

How about just everone mind their own business and stop stealing from eachother.

Civilization is measured by how wise and cooperating people are. And a systematic robbery system like socialism is barbarian.

No, nobody is robbing anyone as a function of normal contemporary socialist policy.

[bumbacoin]

Here, I fixed that for you.

There is no true reason that wealth should be held by those who hold it except that they earned it or were peacefully given it by someone who earned it, and in a free and equal society, no one else gets to impose their will on you or what you are allowed to own.

There is no true reason that private property should be owned by personal individuals except that private property is an inherent human right originating from mankind's dominion over the Earth.

There are obvious examples that show those born into poverty have far more hindrances to achieving their "true potential" than those born into wealth, which doesn't justify forcibly taking from people out of a misplaced sense of morality.

There is no true example of a socialist country, nor a capitalist country. They have all been corrupted, which is irrelevant to the question of the morality of the theft necessary to enforce socialism.

Corruption is real. Anyone who thinks that either pure socialism or pure capitalism can work by themselves is deluded.

All governments require the threat and use of force to maintain their status quo.

All people are born.

All people die.

It's much better now.

private property stretches from toothbrushes to the entire earth. obviously they offer different scopes to dominion.

one fiinds it hard to consider that a human overlord owning vast tracts of wealth is meant by "an inherent human right", whilst many others are relegated to a dependent reality relying on the overlords good will to share their wealth.

instead a shared community based ownership seems more in line where all mankind can share in this apparent right.

there is no reason why wealth should be assigned by position of birth, or even by position of current wealth. if a situtation is unjust/unfair/broken that is a good reason to fix it.
your morality is misplaced if you think it's fine for some people to indulge in wealth while others starve because of the status quo. just because.

theft is not as obvious as you claim.
my inherent human right has been stolen from me by those who monopolise wealth/property.

[bumbacoin]

this whole discussion has so many fallacies that it's pointless.
people have been so poisoned by america's view of "socialism" that it has become a gigantic false dichotomy.

ownership of property has been declared as theft therefore capitalism is theft.
taxes and re-distribution has been declared as theft therefore socialism is theft.

you're all wrong.



if you want a serious conversation,
you need to consider how a community could exist without either.

[jaysabi]

Here, I fixed that for you.

There is no true reason that wealth should be held by those who hold it except that they earned it or were peacefully given it by someone who earned it, and in a free and equal society, no one else gets to impose their will on you or what you are allowed to own.

There is no true reason that private property should be owned by personal individuals except that private property is an inherent human right originating from mankind's dominion over the Earth.

There are obvious examples that show those born into poverty have far more hindrances to achieving their "true potential" than those born into wealth, which doesn't justify forcibly taking from people out of a misplaced sense of morality.

There is no true example of a socialist country, nor a capitalist country. They have all been corrupted, which is irrelevant to the question of the morality of the theft necessary to enforce socialism.

Corruption is real. Anyone who thinks that either pure socialism or pure capitalism can work by themselves is deluded.

All governments require the threat and use of force to maintain their status quo.

All people are born.

All people die.

It's much better now.

private property stretches from toothbrushes to the entire earth. obviously they offer different scopes to dominion.

one fiinds it hard to consider that a human overlord owning vast tracts of wealth is meant by "an inherent human right", whilst many others are relegated to a dependent reality relying on the overlords good will to share their wealth.

instead a shared community based ownership seems more in line where all mankind can share in this apparent right.

there is no reason why wealth should be assigned by position of birth, or even by position of current wealth. if a situtation is unjust/unfair/broken that is a good reason to fix it.
your morality is misplaced if you think it's fine for some people to indulge in wealth while others starve because of the status quo. just because.

theft is not as obvious as you claim.
my inherent human right has been stolen from me by those who monopolise wealth/property.

What I meant that you didn't understand is that property is unique to the human species. Man is the first species that has had the capacity to understand the concept of property, therefore is the first species on Earth capable of owning property. The Earth was therefore man's for the taking the moment that mankind first asserted it.

Wealth is not assigned by position of birth in non-caste systems. In America, you have the ability to move up. More can be done to lessen the obstacles, but trying to create equality through the use of force is immoral. When socialism can achieve its ends without the use of force, it will be a morally acceptable system, but of course, it cannot by its very nature.

[bumbacoin]

What I meant that you didn't understand is that property is unique to the human species. Man is the first species that has had the capacity to understand the concept of property, therefore is the first species on Earth capable of owning property. The Earth is therefore man's for the taking. Wealth is not assigned by position of birth in non-caste systems. In America, you have the ability to move up. More can be done to lessen the obstacles, but trying to create equality through the use of force is immoral. When socialism can achieve its ends without the use of force, it will be a morally acceptable system, but of course, it cannot by its very nature.

If you are born rich you are born rich, caste is irrelevant.

In any capitalist society your caste is determined by birth, but not totally so,
your life choices are overwhelmingly limited by your birth caste. If you are born poor and for some reason you are not the victim of poor dietary habits, exposed to hideous psychological traumas, educated in a lacklustre way maybe you might grow up to be rich.
(children are victims, they cannot control their environment).

Morally acceptable force is everywhere.
Police is a socially acceptable community based force. Community based force is not inherently moral/immoral.

Ownership does not rely on inequality, if everyone has a toothbrush there is no issue.
But when ownership = inequality it becomes immoral.

To use community force to correct an immoral reality is not immoral.


your idea of force is poorly presented. It is a highly ambiguous concept that is portrayed in a one dimensional way to suggest it is immoral.
We use force when we chew our food.
We use force to protect our communities.
We use force to protect our personal being.
Force has no necessary moral/immoral position.

[bumbacoin]

Q. You teach a course on ethics and heroism at Virginia Tech. How exactly does one teach heroism to college students?

A. We teach aspirational ethics. What I teach my students is, You’re born heroic. I go into these animal studies, and heroism is actually in our nature. What you have to do is make sure that the system doesn’t change you, that our educational system doesn’t teach you to be willfully blind and to forget your aspirations, because that’s the default position.

We talk about the realities of heroism too. It’s not fun. These are gut-wrenching things. But the main thing is, Do not let our educational institutions make you into something that you will be ashamed of.


http://chronicle.com/article/The-Water-Next-Time-Professor/235136/



If something is broken you don't need to roll over and deal with as best you can.
The status quo is hard to overcome, but that does not mean to suffer in silence

[RealBitcoin]

Not those things. Grab a book.

Oh I know exactly what it is, but you have denied my arguments without any proof or backing ,so the burden of proof is on you.

No, nobody is robbing anyone as a function of normal contemporary socialist policy.

I`m sure the forced taxation with the threat of jailtime is exactly the definition of armed robbery or extorsion.