Apple or the FBI… whose side are you on in the iPhone privacy battle?

[TheIrishman]

Apple or the FBI… whose side are you on in the iPhone privacy battle?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/21/apple-smartphone-personal-data

So is Apple fighting for everyone's liberty? It is defying the US government's request that it must help open up the iPhone of the terrorist Syed Rizwan Farook, who killed 14 people in San Bernardino, because the software so created will compromise the integrity of every iPhone. Or is it another example of a hi-tech company bogusly invoking the threats to privacy mounted by the new digital age as a marketing strategy – and carelessly putting the lives of every citizen a little more at risk?

The US is riven by the argument, with the need for security counterbalanced with the need for personal privacy. Donald Trump has called for a boycott of Apple products, while most – but not all – of California's tech giants have lined up behind Apple. It is an argument that Britain needs to have with no less urgency. These issues confront us too, in a country perhaps far too ready to trade off personal freedom before any call for security.

The FBI wants the details of Farook's last months of calls for obvious reasons: it will reveal the extent to which he and his accomplices were lone operators or part of a terrorist network operating in the US; if the latter, there could not be a more vital interest than knowing who they are. The trouble is that the iPhone is so encrypted that the call history cannot be disclosed without the right password and will close down once 10 wrong passwords are entered. It will need special software, written by Apple, to get at what the justice and police authorities need so desperately.

The FBI and Justice Department have been careful to insist that they don't want general software. They are targeting the iPhone of just one terrorist and need Apple's one-off support to open it. President Obama, steering a path between the needs of privacy and his government's appetite for surveillance revealed by Edward Snowden, has on this case come down on the side of security. A federal judge has backed the FBI and ruled, following the All Writs Act of 1789, that the rule of law is everyone’s business: the young American republic wanted to establish it was a republic of laws and thus it was the duty of any person or any business, even if not involved directly in a case, to ensure court orders were executed. The court has ruled that Apple help the FBI in the name of the rule of law.

But Apple CEO, Tim Cook, in a letter to his customers that everyone should read sets out powerful reasons why his company should not create what would in effect be a back door not just to Farook's iPhone but to everyone's. Smartphones have become our civilisation's indispensable personal data treasure trove – details of our contacts, finances, health and private conversations are all housed in one device. As he writes: "The government suggests this tool (special software to open the phone) could only be used once, on one phone. But that's simply not true. Once created, the technique could be used over and over again, on any number of devices. In the physical world, it would be the equivalent of a master key, capable of opening hundreds of millions of locks – from restaurants and banks to stores and homes. No reasonable person would find that acceptable."

Source: The Guardian

[1715657186]

1715657186

[1715657186]

1715657186

[protokol]

I don't like Apple as a company, but of course I'm on their side in this debate. I don't care what the terrorist did, unlocking the phone would set a precedent and be very dangerous for everyone.

It's funny how everyone asking Apple to do this are technologically clueless, when all the tech-related people are on Apple's side. That should tell us something.

It's a bit like politicians in general saying silly things like "encryption should be banned", they don't know what they're talking about and just want to secure votes from the clueless electorate so it looks like they're doing something against terrorism and child porn etc. It makes me mad.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Yep, on the side of Apple here and I'm not against them as a company by any means.  The issue of privacy is far bigger than justice for one terrorist.

[Losvienleg]

I don't like to say that, but I'm in the Apple side. Even if I hate this company, her action and her leader, it can't be worst than THE terrorist nation, the USA, devil's country.

[be48d782]

To all people with short term memory, please try to recollect the name 'Snowden' and the revelations of Snowden about companies like Google or Apple or Facebook.

I think this is a PR stunt or even a political stunt.

If Tim Cook really care about privacy, maybe he shouldn't collect too many userdata. The same for Google. Maybe stop reading emails for starters.

Also, it is worth remembering that Obama and his administration was always trying to break encryption and get into phones by legislating it.


Obama administration explored ways to bypass smartphone encryption

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-administration-ponders-how-to-seek-access-to-encrypted-data/2015/09/23/107a811c-5b22-11e5-b38e-06883aacba64_story.html


But after the backlash against it, he took a far subtle way but he is still trying.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/10/obama-administration-wont-seek-encryption-backdoor-legislation/

Then, if its that particular phone of the terrorist, then Apple should break the encryption just this once for this particular phone if it is technically possible.

But if the government is asking for a backdoor on each phone, then they shouldn't.

[Losvienleg]

To all people with short term memory, please try to recollect the name 'Snowden' and the revelations of Snowden about companies like Google or Apple or Facebook.

I think this is a PR stunt.

If Tim Cook really care about privacy, maybe he shouldn't collect too many userdata. The same for Google. Maybe stop reading emails for starters.

Snowden is about the NSA, the US government. I'm sure that in the terms of use of Apple, this is mentionned somewhere that they will collect your data, but you never signed any contract with the NSA...

[be48d782]

To all people with short term memory, please try to recollect the name 'Snowden' and the revelations of Snowden about companies like Google or Apple or Facebook.

I think this is a PR stunt.

If Tim Cook really care about privacy, maybe he shouldn't collect too many userdata. The same for Google. Maybe stop reading emails for starters.

Snowden is about the NSA, the US government. I'm sure that in the terms of use of Apple, this is mentionned somewhere that they will collect your data, but you never signed any contract with the NSA...

Snowden have said many times that companies like Apple and Facebook and Google and major ISPs do work with NSA. NSA or FBI, both are government.

[mrflibblehat]

I'll stick to an android phone and let them do whatever they want.

[be48d782]

Also it is worth remembering, the NSA is said to break many weaker encryptions

https://thehackernews.com/2015/10/nsa-crack-encryption.html

https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/haldermanheninger/how-is-nsa-breaking-so-much-crypto/

[mrflibblehat]

Do you really think that they don't try to listen to everything, permission or not? It really doesn't matter anymore.

[axxo]

What has been exposed in all of this is that the US Government and all its resources such as the CIA, NSA, FBI, etc. does not have the talent, skills and expertise to hack an iPhone.

[croato]

I think this whole story is smoke produced by three letters agencies in cooperation with apple just to give false confidence in privacy to ppl who use apple products. I bet those agencies already have backdoors and everything needed in cooperation with apple to decrypt iPhones and every apple product (most big companies coop with gov no doubt).

[bryant.coleman]

If Tim Cook really care about privacy, maybe he shouldn't collect too many userdata. The same for Google. Maybe stop reading emails for starters.

Exactly. Apple is the same as any other corporation in the Western World (including Microsoft, McAfee, Symantec, and Samsung). They never care about the privacy of their users. Tim Cook is trying to claim moral high ground, by publicizing his battle with the FBI. I am sure that in the end, Apple will provide the de-encryption software to the FBI.

[Betwrong]

If Tim Cook really care about privacy, maybe he shouldn't collect too many userdata. The same for Google. Maybe stop reading emails for starters.

Exactly. Apple is the same as any other corporation in the Western World (including Microsoft, McAfee, Symantec, and Samsung). They never care about the privacy of their users. Tim Cook is trying to claim moral high ground, by publicizing his battle with the FBI. I am sure that in the end, Apple will provide the de-encryption software to the FBI.

I hope they won't do that. Although I understand that sometimes we might consider losing some freedom for the sake of security we shouldn't let the Government control everything in our life.

[Elwar]

You do realize what happened don't you?

Let's see:
Judge orders Apple to change the code to add a back door to their phones.
Apple publicly refuses.
Apple releases an "emergency patch" to their phones siting a security concern.


Hello....McFly....do you honestly think Apple or the government would say "Ok, Apple is complying with the back door fix. Download this patch for the back door code."

[bryant.coleman]

Now John McAfee jumps in to the scene, for some free publicity:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/166513-John-McAfee-Says-He-Will-Hack-the-San-Bernardino-Phone-to-Save-America-From-Itself

This guy is even more unreliable than Tim Cook. Both McAfee and Symantec have been accused of stealing user data in the past, and that is one of the reasons why I never use McAfee or Norton anti-virus software. I trust only Kasper. 

[TheButterZone]

The FBI, clearly none of the intel they gather from the cellphone will be actionable after all this time (or when they get the final rubber stamp from SCOTUS); it's a naked grab for the absolute infringement of all civil rights.

[Snail2]

Naturally I'm on Apple's side. Not sure however if finally Apple not going to do some background deal with the US government.

[Losvienleg]

To all people with short term memory, please try to recollect the name 'Snowden' and the revelations of Snowden about companies like Google or Apple or Facebook.

I think this is a PR stunt.

If Tim Cook really care about privacy, maybe he shouldn't collect too many userdata. The same for Google. Maybe stop reading emails for starters.

Snowden is about the NSA, the US government. I'm sure that in the terms of use of Apple, this is mentionned somewhere that they will collect your data, but you never signed any contract with the NSA...

Snowden have said many times that companies like Apple and Facebook and Google and major ISPs do work with NSA. NSA or FBI, both are government.

So this confirm what I said numerous times before : everything which relates to the United States is bad, is devil and must be avoided at any cost.

[McDonalds5]

FBI because if they win that might destroy evil Apple

[criptix]

To all people with short term memory, please try to recollect the name 'Snowden' and the revelations of Snowden about companies like Google or Apple or Facebook.

I think this is a PR stunt.

If Tim Cook really care about privacy, maybe he shouldn't collect too many userdata. The same for Google. Maybe stop reading emails for starters.

Snowden is about the NSA, the US government. I'm sure that in the terms of use of Apple, this is mentionned somewhere that they will collect your data, but you never signed any contract with the NSA...

Snowden have said many times that companies like Apple and Facebook and Google and major ISPs do work with NSA. NSA or FBI, both are government.

So this confirm what I said numerous times before : everything which relates to the United States is bad, is devil and must be avoided at any cost.

Hail soviet russia 

Btw. This is just pr. The master key is already included

[Elwar]

I side with FBI because...

public forum

[TECSHARE]

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160220/22154433660/fbi-told-san-bernardino-to-change-password-which-is-why-fbi-now-cant-access-farooks-iphone-data.shtml

[craked5]

To all people with short term memory, please try to recollect the name 'Snowden' and the revelations of Snowden about companies like Google or Apple or Facebook.

I think this is a PR stunt.

If Tim Cook really care about privacy, maybe he shouldn't collect too many userdata. The same for Google. Maybe stop reading emails for starters.

Snowden is about the NSA, the US government. I'm sure that in the terms of use of Apple, this is mentionned somewhere that they will collect your data, but you never signed any contract with the NSA...

Snowden have said many times that companies like Apple and Facebook and Google and major ISPs do work with NSA. NSA or FBI, both are government.

So this confirm what I said numerous times before : everything which relates to the United States is bad, is devil and must be avoided at any cost.

Of course. USA is one of the worst country in the world and they invaded the whole Europe, South America and Africa. Only Russia and China can resist them :-/

[bitbunnny]

This is a strange situation to my opinion. Private data protection is not so important in USA, like is in Europe, in some areas private data protection has no value at all, but suddenly Aple is so worried about privacy of their users. I'm not taking any side just want to say how perspective can change depending on interests.

[craked5]

This is a strange situation to my opinion. Private data protection is not so important in USA, like is in Europe, in some areas private data protection has no value at all, but suddenly Aple is so worried about privacy of their users. I'm not taking any side just want to say how perspective can change depending on interests.

Yeah that's right! It's strange that it makes such a debate in the USA!
Most of the time they don't care about privacy!
They invented Fb after all xD

[Karartma1]

As others noticed the fact that Apple or Google are worried about privacy is really hilarious! I mean they profile any given data about their customers now what is all this fuss regarding some privacy concerns? It seemes only a way to keep customers happy about their data are " safe " with them

[spazzdla]

I am wondering how many of you really understand what can happen with backdoors on phones...  I would of thought you did but after reading this.. wow.

[Losvienleg]

I am wondering how many of you really understand what can happen with backdoors on phones...  I would of thought you did but after reading this.. wow.

I don't think that I'm concerned, since I don't live in the shitty country which the United States are. They can spy me if they want, they'll never be able to touch me.

[spazzdla]

I am wondering how many of you really understand what can happen with backdoors on phones...  I would of thought you did but after reading this.. wow.

I don't think that I'm concerned, since I don't live in the shitty country which the United States are. They can spy me if they want, they'll never be able to touch me.

You really don't get it at all do you...

This ignorance and widely opinionated is why the world is so fucked up..

What happens when Russia steals all of Microsoft's, IBM's, Apples, Googles top CEO's damming E-mails and posts them all over the web as retaliation for the sanctions?

This will be the beginning of a war.. although with our ecom so fucked perhaps that is the plan of these disgusting pigs.

[designerusa]

I don't like Apple as a company, but of course I'm on their side in this debate. I don't care what the terrorist did, unlocking the phone would set a precedent and be very dangerous for everyone.

It's funny how everyone asking Apple to do this are technologically clueless, when all the tech-related people are on Apple's side. That should tell us something.

It's a bit like politicians in general saying silly things like "encryption should be banned", they don't know what they're talking about and just want to secure votes from the clueless electorate so it looks like they're doing something against terrorism and child porn etc. It makes me mad.

i dislike apple too. and i think they are so right to not giving personal information of their clients to government whether it is right or not.. privcy is pricvy...

[Losvienleg]

I am wondering how many of you really understand what can happen with backdoors on phones...  I would of thought you did but after reading this.. wow.

I don't think that I'm concerned, since I don't live in the shitty country which the United States are. They can spy me if they want, they'll never be able to touch me.

You really don't get it at all do you...

This ignorance and widely opinionated is why the world is so fucked up..

What happens when Russia steals all of Microsoft's, IBM's, Apples, Googles top CEO's damming E-mails and posts them all over the web as retaliation for the sanctions?

This will be the beginning of a war.. although with our ecom so fucked perhaps that is the plan of these disgusting pigs.

I hope that it will be the beggining of a war. Russia is threatened by the USA for no reason at all ! At least I hope they will act as real men and will fight back. I know that soon there will the WW3. I only hope that the new coming superpower will be pro-Russia, because this newsuperpower won't do the same mistakes as the 2 Reich that were before it, and thus won"t declare war to both Russia and the USA. That mean that one of those two countries won't survive WW3, and I'm convinced that Russia will be the winner.

[YepImNaked]

I am wondering how many of you really understand what can happen with backdoors on phones...  I would of thought you did but after reading this.. wow.

Yeah, it's kind of surprising to see so many people in this forum, of all places, siding with the FBI on this.

- Naked

[TheIrishman]

FBI may have found way to unlock San Bernardino iPhone without Apple

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/21/fbi-apple-court-hearing-postpone-unlock-terrorist-iphone

<< A court hearing designed to force Apple into compromising its security systems for the iPhone was cancelled Monday at the request of federal authorities, who said they potentially had another way into the San Bernardino shooter's phone. The astonishing reversal kicks the can down the road in what had become the climax of a two year battle over digital privacy between the US government and Silicon Valley. At the same time, the standoff between Apple and the Justice Department drew so much attention that policymakers or another court may weigh in soon regardless.

The government has until 5 April to determine whether it wants to pursue the case. Apple's attorneys, in a conference call with reporters, said they do not consider the development a legal victory and warned they could be back in the same situation in two weeks. The attorneys spoke on the condition of not being quoted by name. The company's lawyers said they were as surprised as anyone and learned of the development in an afternoon phone call.

The government's potential solution raises its own questions: if investigators figure out a way to hack into the device without Apple's help, are they obligated to show Apple the security flaw they used to get inside? Attorneys for Apple, which almost assuredly would then patch such a flaw, said they would demand the government share their methods if they successfully get inside the phone. >>

[ReLoad]

Look out for fishy root certs in a ios device near you soon! oh and every android version available.

[designerusa]

I don't like to say that, but I'm in the Apple side. Even if I hate this company, her action and her leader, it can't be worst than THE terrorist nation, the USA, devil's country.

i am exactly agree with you.. the usa is the evilest , the most hypocrite country of this world.. i hate apple too but it is better than united states..

[samlanhan1]

Apple on this one if it's real. If they just want information on a specific user you'd think they'd just ask Apple vs. asking them to use their software.

[TheIrishman]

US ends case against Apple after pulling data from San Bernardino iPhone

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/28/apple-fbi-case-dropped-san-bernardino-iphone

<< The US government on Monday dropped its court fight against Apple after it successfully pulled data from the iPhone of San Bernardino gunman Syed Farook, according to court records. The development effectively ends a six-week legal battle that was poised to shape digital privacy for years to come. Justice Department lawyers wrote in a court filing Monday evening that they no longer needed Apple's help in getting around the security countermeasures on Farook's device.

"The government has now successfully accessed the data stored on Farook's iPhone and therefore no longer requires the assistance from Apple Inc", the government said. It then asked the court to vacate a 16 February court order demanding Apple create software that weakened iPhone security settings to aid government investigators.

The Guardian has reported that the technique used by the government has been classified. >>

[Zeke2345]

Privacy is always key to me and trumps anything the FBI is selling as a narrative to gain more control over people.
Government is a extension of the people and should be treated as such,the idea the we need to be monitored means they no longer represent the populous.
If you keep letting them extend monitoring aspects you eventually have a 24 hour monitoring system in place.
People that scream there is nothing wrong with that I have nothing to hide usually believe their actions can not be misconstrued as shady.
Say you are in the same block as a terrorist,you are now rounded up because you where in the vicinity. Questioned and then released.
So in essence guilty till proven innocent. I will not live in that world,period!

[LuanX3]

apple side too, cause it just doesn't worth it let all the users vulnerable just to bust one terrorist, they must find other way to bust him

[BCEmporium]

Apple doesn't sell security, sells obscurity. But their customers are usually too dumb to notice!
"It erases on 10 attempts"... how lame is that?! Erases if the memory is being read by the device, if you remove it to read elsewhere you've endless attempts on it.

[apoorvlathey]

I would go with Apple's decision. Its about users privacy !
Its decision is right in not disclosing and cracking its own smartphone.

[bitbunnny]

If I think from the privacy protection angle then I choose Apple. But if I think how horrible things can happen and that I might be a victim of crime then FBI also have a point.

[BCEmporium]

I would go with Apple's decision. Its about users privacy !
Its decision is right in not disclosing and cracking its own smartphone.

In proper crypto there's no "want to". If you send me something PGP encrypted without the key I "can't" decrypt it, regardless if I want or not.
This is the whole point.

[catch.me.if.you.can]

Its impossible to break a 128bit or 256bit cryptography. There is no so powerfull computer to do it. But its very possible a secret cooperation between police and a company.

[AzibLala007]

of course apple.
FBI cannot win against iphone.
i bet.

[BCEmporium]

Its impossible to break a 128bit or 256bit cryptography. There is no so powerfull computer to do it. But its very possible a secret cooperation between police and a company.

With a 4 or 5 digit key?! Are you serious?!
You can't directly decrypt it, but it takes 10 seconds to get the key.
All it takes is to get the raw data and brutte force it at another computer (one without the 10 fail routine).

[jassii]

i support FBI. nothing is impossible for FBI.

[Lauda]

Its impossible to break a 128bit or 256bit cryptography. There is no so powerfull computer to do it. But its very possible a secret cooperation between police and a company.

That is a false generalization  If we are talking about encryption, then it comes down to the length of the password/type & computer power used to decrypt.

If I think from the privacy protection angle then I choose Apple. But if I think how horrible things can happen and that I might be a victim of crime then FBI also have a point.

No, they don't. There's no point in encrypting if you are going to keep a key and let entities unlock on request.

[Evildrum]

The Fingerprint Lock on Your Phone Isn’t Cop-Proof


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-11/the-fingerprint-lock-on-your-phone-isn-t-cop-proof

The FBI’s feud with Apple over access to Syed Farook’s iPhone might never have happened if the San Bernardino, Calif., shooter had been carrying a 5S or newer. For the 250 million phones sold around the world with fingerprint authentication since 2013, law enforcement may be able to compel suspects to press their fingers to the devices and unlock them.

With minimal litigation on the books in the U.S., police and prosecutors require only a judge’s blessing on a warrant for a suspect’s fingerprints. So far they’ve used the power sparingly. But as the number of fingerprint scanners in hip pockets grows, district attorneys across the country say the technology is poised to become a major engine of evidence-gathering. “It is likely to be just a matter of time till this does become a primary gateway to accessing phones,” says Micheal O’Connor, an Alameda County assistant district attorney in Oakland, Calif.

If a person has enabled Apple’s Touch ID, her fingerprint will unlock the phone for 48 hours after locking before the device requires a PIN. Systems on newish Samsung and LG phones work similarly. Los Angeles and Oakland are among the cities that have already granted or received warrants for the use of a finger to unlock a phone. The next step may be a lawsuit that determines whether a fingerprint is off-limits.

Legal scholars say law enforcement is likely to win that fight. Two years ago, David Baust, a paramedic in Virginia Beach, Va., admitted that his locked iPhone 5S may have filmed him in bed strangling his girlfriend, according to a court filing. Baust’s lawyers argued that unlocking the phone would violate his Fifth Amendment right to avoid incriminating himself. A state judge ruled that demanding Baust type in his pass code would entail a “mental process” leading to self-incrimination, but that asking for his fingerprint was more like drawing a blood sample and therefore OK.

Although the Virginia decision isn’t binding on other judges, it’s only a matter of time before a higher court weighs in and sets a precedent, says Rahul Gupta, a senior deputy district attorney in Orange County, Calif. He, too, is betting on police and prosecutors. “It’s just the same old evidence, blood or a mouth swab, being used in a different way,” he says.

Fingerprint-scanning phones will become the majority within about two years, estimates researcher IDC. As the pile of warrant requests grows, the pressure will be on magistrate judges to draw a line between genuine seizures and fishing expeditions, says Leslie Harris, a lecturer at the University of California at Berkeley’s School of Information. “They could be the last line of defense,” says Harris, who’s also president of the Harris Strategy Group, a think tank that advocates for privacy rights. “And they often get calls in the dead of night that force them to make immediate decisions. It’s not an ideal situation.”

The fingerprint lock systems, as they stand, though, aren’t foolproof skeleton keys for law enforcement. When the phone is switched off and restarted, it requires a pass code. And it won’t take long for criminals to learn that the little scanner on the home button isn’t their friend.

The bottom line: Fingerprint locks, which will be the norm in two years, give law enforcement an end run around smartphone encryption.

Imagine I could get a phone pre 2013 but they will eventually make it out of date with various updates to make the phone inefficient. This looks like a issue that will being tackled for a well and should go back and forth in the courts.