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Author Topic: [BitFunder] TU.SILVER -- Interim Report April 12th, 2013  (Read 12426 times)
usagi
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January 20, 2013, 03:41:44 AM
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OP/Thread moved to: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177747.0
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January 20, 2013, 03:42:14 AM
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[BitFunder] TU.SILVER FAQ:

Question 1 (from odolvlobo):
I just took a brief look and found  a problem. Your contract states, "SILVER will act to sell silver on the forums and in auction at a profit, and to sell covered call options against the physical position, to generate revenue and pay for secure storage fees." Are you doing this with the fund's silver? You can't sell shares and sell the silver, too! You can't sell covered calls, what if they get exercised? If this doesn't involve the fund's silver, then why is it in the contract?


A: I've answered this question by changing the Business Description of our security on BTC-TC to the following:

Primary Business: Silver Storage
To start the company we will convert 100 oz. of physical silver into 1,000 units of the fund. We will then sell these units into the market at a premium to face value, representing the need to pay for secure storage and the value from our secondary business model.

Secure storage costs 0.49% per year in Hong Kong (VIA MAT or G4S). Other vaults around the world have similar rates, although Switzerland is notably higher at 0.99% per year. I am planning to start with the vault in the local national bank so that we may inspect the silver at our leisure.

Secondary Business: Selling Covered Calls
We will write covered call contracts against the silver position in order to pay for secure storage fees and generate revenue for shareholders. This will allow
us to pay for secure storage fees on an ongoing, permanent basis, and to expand the fund.

Since storage fees are around 0.5% per year and selling deep, in-the-money covered calls are estimated to generate ~1% per month (long term) in profit,
this implies we only need to write calls against 6% of the position in order to pay for secure storage. As we will be selling each unit for 5% to 10% above face value, I feel there is zero risk of breaking the fund's model of retaining one tenth of an ounce of silver per unit. In short, should we get called on such a
small position, we will have more than enough cash on hand to settle with no risk to the holders. Failing that, please see clause #5 in the contract.



Question 2 (from Monster Tent):
(re: a response to wabashky)
So the promise to wait till all your other companies shut down before you started trading was complete horse shit?


A: In response to wabashky, I laid out a clear sequence of events: "The proposed launch date is anytime, but assuming we get the votes by the end of this month, (...) we will be able to get the silver and start selling shares around the second week of February. Before then I could only sell maybe 100 shares or so against the silver we have right now." (emphasis mine).

I did add an edit on the advice of Deprived; as stated in the post it clarifies the sequence of events by pointing out that we would have begun trading after I shut down BMF and my other securities. I can see how you might have thought this was a promise not to trade until after I'm delisted from BTC-TC, but it wasn't. I was quite clear about selling around 100 shares using silver I already had. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding and I will try to be more clear next time.
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January 20, 2013, 03:16:48 PM
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FAQ (post #2) updated with a new question from one of the LTC-GLOBAL shareholders.
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January 21, 2013, 09:13:40 AM
 #4

I'm into buying physical silver currently...have been since I was a kid. I am interested in this service though, as companies like http://www.goldmoney.com/ have been doing this for years...interesting to see it from a BTC standpoint.

1. Is anyone doing this now? (besides the physical silver market, CoinAbul etc..)?

2. How soon is the proposed launch date?
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January 21, 2013, 09:23:46 AM
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I'm into buying physical silver currently...have been since I was a kid. I am interested in this service though, as companies like http://www.goldmoney.com/ have been doing this for years...interesting to see it from a BTC standpoint.

1. Is anyone doing this now? (besides the physical silver market, CoinAbul etc..)?

2. How soon is the proposed launch date?


SILVER is a lot like the companies like you mentioned, as well as BTC-TC funds like Carnth's BTC-GOLD and John Galt's GOLD fund. The difference between SILVER, and something like BTC-GOLD (besides the fact we deal in silver) is that we sell deep-in-the-money covered call options to pay for secure storage. As a result, we can sell shares cheaper on a per-ounce basis and there are essentially no other fees. With other funds, I'm not sure how they are storing their silver. Our silver will be guaranteed by the vault we hire. The downside is that if there's a sudden violent upswing in the price of silver, we will lose our cash position. The plus side is, that won't affect investors in the fund who will still be able to exchange their shares for physical silver ounces. So no, no one is really doing what we're doing specifically, although there are plenty of places to buy silver or gold in the community now, CoinAbul being one of the best places. I plan to try and support the communuity by buying from them (if their prices remain fair, of course Wink I haven't looked).

The proposed launch date is anytime, but assuming we get the votes by the end of this month (we still need two votes on BTC-TC), we will be able to get the silver and start selling shares around the second week of February. Before then I could only sell maybe 100 shares or so against the silver we have right now.

EDIT: I have been advised to clarify that we will not begin trading until I've finished closing down my other companies. This is true; I will be closing down my other companies before starting up this one. Even if approved today, SILVER will not begin trading until approximately two weeks after I shut down BMF, CPA and NYAN.
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January 21, 2013, 09:37:41 AM
 #6

I'm interested and will more than likely buy some shares.  Thanks!
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January 22, 2013, 04:28:57 AM
 #7

=Identity Escrow======
An LTC-GLOBAL moderator has voted NO, but offered the remedy of Identity Escrow. I am more than willing to provide this. I was fully ID-verified on the GLBSE. The trick becomes, who can hold my identity in escrow. Secondly, as an escrow service, this entity would hold for me what I want out of the deal, the power to list my security.

Well it seems burnside is the obvious choice here. However, if any LTC-GLOBAL moderator wants to know who I am, as I have said before I haven't gone to any great length to hide who I am, I've published several books and am/was very active in the internet Go community. My identity is no great secret. I also sell things online (gold, silver) so dozens of people have my address. I don't mind talking with anyone over the phone.

So sure, identity escrow. I'll send a note to burnside. But I will ask that whoever is asking for this to contact me privately. If you're going to make an offer like this, I'd like to be able to hold you to your promise of a YES vote.
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January 22, 2013, 10:03:37 AM
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=Identity Escrow======
An LTC-GLOBAL moderator has voted NO, but offered the remedy of Identity Escrow. I am more than willing to provide this. I was fully ID-verified on the GLBSE. The trick becomes, who can hold my identity in escrow. Secondly, as an escrow service, this entity would hold for me what I want out of the deal, the power to list my security.

Well it seems burnside is the obvious choice here. However, if any LTC-GLOBAL moderator wants to know who I am, as I have said before I haven't gone to any great length to hide who I am, I've published several books and am/was very active in the internet Go community. My identity is no great secret. I also sell things online (gold, silver) so dozens of people have my address. I don't mind talking with anyone over the phone.

So sure, identity escrow. I'll send a note to burnside. But I will ask that whoever is asking for this to contact me privately. If you're going to make an offer like this, I'd like to be able to hold you to your promise of a YES vote.

There are lots of ID Verification services, I am not one of them.  Smiley

Perhaps something like this?  http://www.miicard.com/  ... http://www.miicard.com/how-it-works/managing-your-miicard

Once you are verified you just post a link like so:

Code:
<a href="https://my.miicard.com/card/USERNAME" target="_blank">Click To Verify</a>

You'll need to make sure the email address they display matches the email address you have on your asset issuer account.

Hope that helps!

I'm not a Coinbase fan -- I placed a buy order, they took the funds out of my account, then a week later the price went up and they canceled the buy and closed my account.  You've been warned.  Use a different exchange.
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January 22, 2013, 02:47:55 PM
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There are lots of ID Verification services, I am not one of them.  Smiley

Perhaps something like this?  http://www.miicard.com/  ... http://www.miicard.com/how-it-works/managing-your-miicard

Thanks, I tried to use miicard but they don't support Asia. I have a mobile number just not one in an area they support :/

I'll keep looking.
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January 23, 2013, 08:59:24 AM
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I have several questions:

If the silver is put at risk, can you really guarantee that 1 share will always be 1/10th oz.?

#3a doesn't make sense. Can you give an example? It seems like you are saying you won't sell an option that can be called. If an option is called the value of the fund will drop, risking the 1 share = 1/10th oz guarantee.

How profits are distributed? You mentioned dividends, but that's all.

You numbers in the Financial Management section don't add up. Also, 100 oz of silver costs about 200 BTC, not 1000 BTC. Also, in order to pay the 80 BTC in expenses, you need to commit 667 (not 100) BTC worth of silver (assuming you can reliably make 12% profit). So, realistically you have to commit all 1000 BTC of silver to make a decent profit. Can you clarify?

How do you plan to benefit from this contract?

You wrote three times that there is zero risk from trading and this cannot be true -- unless you personally guarantee the value of the fund.  In order to make 1% per month you have to write options with a substantial risk of being called. Writing "deep in-the-money" options won't earn you 1% per month. Looking at silver option prices right now ... in order to earn a premium of $0.30 (1%) on a contract expiring next month, you have to set the strike price at only $2 over spot. That's not "deep in-the-money". Can you clarify?

Buy bitcoins with cash from somebody near you: LocalBitcoins
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usagi
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January 23, 2013, 05:07:48 PM
 #11

I have several questions:

If the silver is put at risk, can you really guarantee that 1 share will always be 1/10th oz.?

Yes I can. First, if anything goes wrong I am personally liable, as stated in the contract. I have changed the contract to make this more clear. This is not just idle talk -- I have a proven track record here. I have given hundreds of my personal bitcoins to my companies in the past when they were in trouble, and again now that I am closing them. So that's how I justify clause #5 in the contract.

But I think what you are really asking is, how I plan to not get into that position in the first place. The answer is easy, I will only write covered calls if we have the cash on hand to pay for it. This is the meaning of rule 3a. You mention it below:

#3a doesn't make sense. Can you give an example? It seems like you are saying you won't sell an option that can be called. If an option is called the value of the fund will drop, risking the 1 share = 1/10th oz guarantee.

I didn't want to say how we would invest in covered calls at first because I wanted it to be a corporate secret. But how I will do it is to leave the cash position on BTC-TC as collateral for investments in silver covered call funds that have a good track record. This means I never expose the company to the unlimited liability of a price spike. That's the secret. Yes, there is a risk of loss to the cash position (the premium to purchase price of silver which we sell shares at) but in such a case the physical silver will be worth "a ton of money" and the loss of the cash position would become a "welcome loss". Example: If for some reason silver spikes from $30 to $100... a 15% cash position would be worth 4.5% or less on the books. It would then presumably go to zero. Yes, it is true that the company would have lost that 4.5% -- but the value of their shares would skyrocket because the physical silver would be worth 3x more than it was before. An estimate would be, if we sold the shares for 0.22, we would lose the 0.02 premium but the shares would be worth 0.6 (3x more value from the silver). [Edit: this does not mean the shares won't be worth 0.62 or 0.66. They very may well be. But in this example at least 0.6 would be guaranteed from the silver.]

On the flipside, if silver declines in price or remains stable we will be able to pay a reasonable dividend, and still guarantee to be able to exchange each ounce of silver.

It is for this reason I am so excited about running such a fund. But you are right, and thanks for pointing out, that saying "zero risk" is probably not a good idea. To clarify, what I meant was there is zero risk compared to just investing in silver. Good catch. My idea here is not to be greedy and risk the underlying position. There is no need to risk the physical position like that. I am not trying to get 1% a month on the total investment. I am just trying to cover secure storage fees and pay a small dividend.


You numbers in the Financial Management section don't add up. Also, 100 oz of silver costs about 200 BTC, not 1000 BTC. Also, in order to pay the 80 BTC in expenses, you need to commit 667 (not 100) BTC worth of silver (assuming you can reliably make 12% profit). So, realistically you have to commit all 1000 BTC of silver to make a decent profit. Can you clarify?

Oops, that was an error on my part. Thanks for letting me clarify this. For those of you who didn't notice, I believe what odolvlobo is referring to is in "Business Description" I stated we would start with 100 oz of silver (1,000 shares). However, in "Financial Management" I gave a projection for an entire year and I had guesstimated we would sell 5,000 shares. In that, the 1,100 BTC assumed we would sell the shares for 0.22 each and assumed that spot price was 0.20 BTC/share. In actuality, I don't know what we will be able to sell shares at, but I do guarantee I will not sell shares at a loss or at a price that will not allow me execute on the business plan. Essentially the numbers in "Financial Management" were an estimate, or outline of what I wanted to do with the company in an ideal situation. Additionally I had mistakenly underestimated the profits at 120 BTC. I corrected it to 140 BTC.

My mistake above is actually a really good example of why I will be hiring an accountant to provide basic oversight and prepare financial statements ;-) I want to make it clear I have learned a lot from running my previous assets! I don't want to fall into the trap that I did last time where I make a simple mistake that gets taken out of context, or there's something I am inexperienced on and I end up causing unintended damage. Yes, there were flaws in my previous companies. I would like to believe I have learned from that and as a result I will do a much better job than someone who has no experience running an asset like this before.


How profits are distributed? You mentioned dividends, but that's all.

About how profits will be distributed; I'm still thinking about that. All of the company's financial information will be prepared by whoever we hire (deprived? maybe smickles? Someone with skills). The net profit will be displayed on that statement and I will announce what will happen once people can see our financial statements. I'll run a shareholder motion if there is any controversy. But right now I am planning to distribute 1/3rd to shareholders, retain 1/3rd for the company's cash position, and 1/3rd to myself as management fees.

Why retain 1/3rd? More lessons from the past. When I ran BMF I had a policy to pay out 95% of incoming dividends. I realized this was a mistake after a few months because it starved the company of growth and the ability to respond to major market moves. So I will decide how to split profits up later but I am leaning towards the 33% - 33% - 33% model above.


How do you plan to benefit from this contract?

I believe that after a while (6 months? 1 year?) there will be a significant amount of money made by this company. Based on my past experience as an issuer, we might sell 25,000 shares over the course of a year. At that size I am estimating 30 BTC a month in net profit. I'm lucky in that it does not take a lot of time to operate this fund. I'm already a silver stacker. I already have a safety deposit box at the bank with gold and silver in it. My bank offers vault storage and is an authorized Perth Mint dealer so I can also store silver in Australia as well as Asia. I already buy silver on a regular basis. What I gain from this is easy to see, if I can order 100 oz at a time I can save money on the silver. Also, I can split the vault fees with the company, which are cheaper than a safety deposit box for larger amounts of silver. Actually now that I think about it, it would be very convenient for me to hold my personal silver as company shares. That is ideal for me. That way I partake in the benefit of being able to trade the shares just like everyone else. That is very convenient for me!

There's one more benefit.. and not such an insignificant one.... if I am given another chance to run an asset I believe people will see I am in actuality a very trustworthy individual. I'm sure there are people that will eat their hat if I am allowed to list. But the truth is I really feel I deserve another chance. If I can just list this company I am certain I can change people's minds and build more trust here. Yes I was a jerk in the past to some people who I feel attacked me and said some pretty ridiculous things, but that doesn't mean I am a scammer or a fraud. As things turned out it's clear I am not a scammer or a fraud. So I see now it would have been better to just deal with those people nicely and let history prove I was right. That's what I have learned. So I will be honest I want to clear my name. That's probably 50% of it for me right there.


You wrote three times that there is zero risk from trading and this cannot be true -- unless you personally guarantee the value of the fund.

Yes that is precisely what I am doing, I am personally guaranteeing the value. But I want to make it clear that's not why I believe I can maintain the backing. I believe I can maintain the backing because the business plan is sound. Yet, I will remain there in case I am needed to pay out anything that is owed. Ok, I think I've answered most of what else you said above so I'll stop here. I hope you can see I'm very enthusiastic about this and I hope that tells you a lot about where I feel I can take this company. Thanks for the questions. I wish more moderators would give me a chance like you did!
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January 24, 2013, 06:51:57 AM
 #12

Update:

I need to hire someone to prepare financial reports for SILVER. The responsibilities are simple; I'll give you the order numbers, receipts, trading numbers, photos, etc. that you will need to prepare a financial assessment of the company. Then you can provide a nice looking spreadsheet detailing everything we do. I would want something like this done every month for the first six months then every six months thereafter.

I am estimating it will cost 5 BTC to prepare each report. It would depend on the time and information. 5BTC is a little rich if there's no change except a few shares sold and a few ounces bought. But it would be something like that. 1 or 2 BTC an hour or as agreed.

I've seen a lot of good looking reports done by community members. Deprived, DeadTerra, Namworld, and others do a great job on their spreadsheets and that is something along the lines of what I am looking for.

If you have been able to do anything like that and you are a forum member in good standing, you're hired! Please send PM.
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January 24, 2013, 07:26:42 AM
 #13

Update:

I need to hire someone to prepare financial reports for SILVER. The responsibilities are simple; I'll give you the order numbers, receipts, trading numbers, photos, etc. that you will need to prepare a financial assessment of the company. Then you can provide a nice looking spreadsheet detailing everything we do. I would want something like this done every month for the first six months then every six months thereafter.

I am estimating it will cost 5 BTC to prepare each report. It would depend on the time and information. 5BTC is a little rich if there's no change except a few shares sold and a few ounces bought. But it would be something like that. 1 or 2 BTC an hour or as agreed.

I've seen a lot of good looking reports done by community members. Deprived, DeadTerra, Namworld, and others do a great job on their spreadsheets and that is something along the lines of what I am looking for.

If you have been able to do anything like that and you are a forum member in good standing, you're hired! Please send PM.
I would be happy to help out Usagi Smiley
As per usual.
Just send over what information you want in the spreadsheet and I will start fixing it.
//DeaDTerra
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January 25, 2013, 06:23:24 AM
 #14

Silver has been LAUNCHED!

Welcome to the launch party. I will be looking around in the next few days for community websites to advertise on. If you have any suggestions please let me know. I will of course be advertising here on bitcointalk.org, and I will be paying for the first round of ads out of my own pocket.

I have 14 oz. of silver on my desk which I will use as an initial stock for 140 shares (http://kongzi.ca/silver). Our advisor will be given this information shortly.

Initial financial data which I am using is as follows:
S = Spot price is $31.66 from kitco.com
S+P = $33.25 from store.firstmajestic.com
MTGOX weighted average price $17.31682

This implies the cost to order silver bullion is 1.92btc/oz. After a small markup for trading fees, exchange fees, secure storage, etc. I think I can peg the market around 0.21 to 0.22/share at current silver prices. Keep your eye on the silver price! I will be using the following formula to come up with an approximate price and then adjusting slightly to meet demand:

[(S+P) / MtGox Weighted Avg.] + ~7%

Additionally I have launched with 10 shares available at 0.20/share and 10 shares issued at 0.192/share. This is a one time offer. We can't keep selling shares at spot or I won't be able to afford secure storage.

I am open to any comments on this pricing mechanism. I will attempt to analyze the demand and offer shares at a higher or lower price depending on demand (but not so cheap as we lose money).

And something else which I will say precisely once. Thank you to the community for giving me another chance. And now, it's party time! *cuts the red ribbon*
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January 25, 2013, 06:32:29 AM
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Silver has been LAUNCHED!

Welcome to the launch party. I will be looking around in the next few days for community websites to advertise on. If you have any suggestions please let me know. I will of course be advertising here on bitcointalk.org, and I will be paying for the first round of ads out of my own pocket.

I have 14 oz. of silver on my desk which I will use as an initial stock for 140 shares (http://kongzi.ca/silver). Our advisor will be given this information shortly.

Initial financial data which I am using is as follows:
S = Spot price is $31.66 from kitco.com
S+P = $33.25 from store.firstmajestic.com
MTGOX weighted average price $17.31682

This implies the cost to order silver bullion is 1.92btc/oz. After a small markup for trading fees, exchange fees, secure storage, etc. I think I can peg the market around 0.21 to 0.22/share at current silver prices. Keep your eye on the silver price! I will be using the following formula to come up with an approximate price and then adjusting slightly to meet demand:

[(S+P) / MtGox Weighted Avg.] + ~7%

Additionally I have launched with 10 shares available at 0.20/share and 10 shares issued at 0.192/share. This is a one time offer. We can't keep selling shares at spot or I won't be able to afford secure storage.

I am open to any comments on this pricing mechanism. I will attempt to analyze the demand and offer shares at a higher or lower price depending on demand (but not so cheap as we lose money).

And something else which I will say precisely once. Thank you to the community for giving me another chance. And now, it's party time! *cuts the red ribbon*
It's not enabled at the moment? I don't see it in the asset lists.
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January 25, 2013, 06:50:14 AM
 #16

Hasn't been approved by moderators yet. The celebration seems premature.

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January 25, 2013, 07:07:31 AM
 #17

Hasn't been approved by moderators yet. The celebration seems premature.

https://bitfunder.com/asset/TU.SILVER

Wink

I'm not a Coinbase fan -- I placed a buy order, they took the funds out of my account, then a week later the price went up and they canceled the buy and closed my account.  You've been warned.  Use a different exchange.
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January 25, 2013, 07:10:29 AM
 #18

Hasn't been approved by moderators yet. The celebration seems premature.
The asset seems to be rather poorly received so far by votes with public comments.

There are (at time of writing) two votes for the asset, both are anonymous without comment. I would guess that one vote may be Usagi as he has mentioned owning enough shares to qualify as a moderator.

There are currently 4 votes (weighted as -8) against the asset, all of these comments are also anonymous.
Quote from: NO Votes
Anonymous voted NO with comment: untrustworthy manager
Anonymous voted NO with comment: Want identity escrow.
Anonymous voted NO with comment: Issuer has proven to be unreliable and untrustworthy in the past.
Anonymous voted NO with comment: Don't give usagi any of your money or time

It seems those voting on BTCT.CO are not ready to give Usagi another chance.

Edit:Syntax
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January 25, 2013, 07:12:34 AM
 #19

Hasn't been approved by moderators yet. The celebration seems premature.

https://bitfunder.com/asset/TU.SILVER

Smiley

Oh DUH!  Embarrassed

I need sleep! Sorry Usagi...ENJOY THE FESTIVITIES! Grin

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January 25, 2013, 08:15:42 AM
 #20

Hasn't been approved by moderators yet. The celebration seems premature.
The asset seems to be rather poorly received so far by votes with public comments.

There are (at time of writing) two votes for the asset, both are anonymous without comment. I would guess that one vote may be Usagi as he has mentioned owning enough shares to qualify as a moderator.

There are currently 4 votes (weighted as -8) against the asset, all of these comments are also anonymous.
Quote from: NO Votes
Anonymous voted NO with comment: untrustworthy manager
Anonymous voted NO with comment: Want identity escrow.
Anonymous voted NO with comment: Issuer has proven to be unreliable and untrustworthy in the past.
Anonymous voted NO with comment: Don't give usagi any of your money or time

It seems those voting on BTCT.CO are not ready to give Usagi another chance.

Edit:Syntax

Yes there are two votes. But I see a price crash in my crystal ball so I sold all my shares. Those aren't my votes Smiley

Now that I am on BitFunder, all I need to worry about is doing a good job with SILVER. That is my only concern at this point. In the past, along with my flaws I had many strengths. I set trends with daily dividends, weekly reports, and interviews with asset issuers. In the future, I plan to continue to set trends and do the best job I can with SILVER.

To the anonymous NO votes I can only say, I understand you don't like me, but you voted against your financial best interest. I aim to prove that by doing a good job with SILVER somewhere else. I respectfully consider it your loss. Maybe some other time ;-)
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