Stopping gift card money laundering

[EcuaMobi]

During the last few months I've been tagging people who sell illegally obtained (stolen/hacked) gift cards. Until recently I had been doing so only to people who explicitly admit so or when there's no doubt about it. However most sellers won't just admit it, they say "don't worry, they're legit" and that's it. But it's clear selling cards for half the price smells like fraud. I've asked some of them to contact a very trusted member and prove to them (not to me) the cards are legal by presenting some evidence or explaining the method to them after getting their word they won't disclose anything except whether or not it's legal; of course I haven't got any results.

I strongly believe people who sell these illegal cards are hurting bitcoin by making it look like it works only/mainly for illegal purposes. Even if users here don't get scammed, someone else was before in order to make the whole business possible. There could be exceptions like people taking advantage of a promo code known only by a few, or similar; people who sell only one or two cards they got as a gift would be safe too. But those who sell an apparent endless supply of several kind of cards with a big discount and refuse to explain to anybody how they got them must be stopped.

Please let me know what you think. If most trusted users disagree with me or if I get valid arguments against it then I'll stop my campaign against them. Otherwise I'd ask other users -mainly DT members- to help.

[1714215993]

1714215993

[1714215993]

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[mexxer-2]

You should join the "HateLeague" , which at the moment has 3 DT members , me , Lutpin and sho along with james and whywefight[QS is supposed to be in it too, but haven't recieved any confirmation from him, but pretty sure he's in with the "Tag the money launderers"as well]. I for one would be willing to tag them

[Lutpin]

Please let me know what you think. If most trusted users disagree with me or if I get valid arguments against it then I'll stop my campaign against them. Otherwise I'd ask other users -mainly DT members- to help.

I agree with whywefight on that topic (one of the reasons why he is in my trustlist). He's got a rather radical take on cleaning the digital goods section.
For what it's worth, you got my support in your campaign.

[james.lent]

Im all green with the campaign as well. Those cards are definitely illegal (mostly carded) so most of them opt to selling them off half price. Thing is, many people buy em as well, till they get scammed that is. Previously, the half priced starbucks gift card populated the digital goods section. If this shit goes on, theymos might as well rename this forum to hackforums2.org.

[Lutpin]

This is starting great, I just got the retaliation even before leaving my due negative on that account.

[Lauda]

There is no effective way of stopping only those that sell such cards. This is where the problem lies. Either we ban all gift card sales or we continue with the endless fight (from the staffs perspective).

You should join the "HateLeague" , which at the moment has 3 DT members , me , Lutpin and sho along with james and whywefight[QS is supposed to be in it too, but haven't recieved any confirmation from him, but pretty sure he's in with the "Tag the money launderers"as well]. I for one would be willing to tag them

I guess a coordinated effort from DT members should have an effect. However, the name is awful.

[Lutpin]

I guess a coordinated effort from DT members should have an effect. However, the name is awful.

Blame MonetaCoin

Well I see you guys have decided. So I've left a comment with u guys as well. Enjoy running your hate group.

[Zeke2345]

So every one will be under investigation by the new forum gestapo or just active sellers?
Be careful that you do not become the issue of the forum by doling out your brand of justice here.
Its a slippery slope and I know a lot of the ole folk use multiple accounts to push things and make people feel stupid for saying contrary.

Having to prove legitimacy is a interesting issue. If I was questioned out of the blue by pm by some one that is not in the transaction,I would tell them to piss off! Its one thing to ask but another to neg rep a person because they do not play your brand of baseball.
Would it not be fair to list all alt accounts and business you transact in as well if you want clarity?

[shorena]

So every one will be under investigation by the new forum gestapo or just active sellers?
Be careful that you do not become the issue of the forum by doling out your brand of justice here.
Its a slippery slope and I know a lot of the ole folk use multiple accounts to push things and make people feel stupid for saying contrary.

Having to prove legitimacy is a interesting issue. If I was questioned out of the blue by pm by some one that is not in the transaction,I would tell them to piss off! Its one thing to ask but another to neg rep a person because they do not play your brand of baseball.
Would it not be fair to list all alt accounts and business you transact in as well if you want clarity?

+1 goodwin point, well done. Reply 7 and the discussion is already over. Its a joke, but it was probably unreasonable to assume that it would not be used as an argument esp. since there is an austrian involved.

I personally will not actively hunt down carders, but when I see things I think deserve a warning I will issue one. Most recent example would be closed thread sales.

[erikalui]

Since I myself sell gift cards, I wouldn't agree with banning the sale of git cards on the forum. However, there are some obvious users who trade illegal gift cards as well as keys that are bought from stolen credit cards and they sell it at 20-25% face value. I would like that it should stop but still there is no way to prove they are illegit unless the websites are contacted and informed about the same. Also, there are many members who buy these illegally obtained gift cards. Don't get what they get out of it.

I don't agree that it will hurt bitcoins as mainly CC's are used for the purchase of these gift cards and not bitcoins. Don't get what's hurting bitcoins in all this.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

There is no effective way of stopping only those that sell such cards. This is where the problem lies. Either we ban all gift card sales or we continue with the endless fight (from the staffs perspective).

You should join the "HateLeague" , which at the moment has 3 DT members , me , Lutpin and sho along with james and whywefight[QS is supposed to be in it too, but haven't recieved any confirmation from him, but pretty sure he's in with the "Tag the money launderers"as well]. I for one would be willing to tag them

I guess a coordinated effort from DT members should have an effect. However, the name is awful.

Don't care about the name, don't care if people selling legit cards have a hard time.  At least something worthwhile is being done to combat this.  Let the folks selling gift cards sell them on another forum is what I would argue.  There's waaaaay too much potential for abuse.  There are too many carders and crackers running about and they're quite obviously not going to tell the truth about their cards' provenance.

[EcuaMobi]

There is no effective way of stopping only those that sell such cards. This is where the problem lies. Either we ban all gift card sales or we continue with the endless fight (from the staffs perspective).
...
I guess a coordinated effort from DT members should have an effect. However, the name is awful.

Personally I do think banning the sell of giftcards would help a lot but it's very arguable I guess. But at least coordinated effort from DT members against clearly illegal carders will help.

So every one will be under investigation by the new forum gestapo or just active sellers?
Be careful that you do not become the issue of the forum by doling out your brand of justice here.
Its a slippery slope and I know a lot of the ole folk use multiple accounts to push things and make people feel stupid for saying contrary.

Having to prove legitimacy is a interesting issue. If I was questioned out of the blue by pm by some one that is not in the transaction,I would tell them to piss off! Its one thing to ask but another to neg rep a person because they do not play your brand of baseball.
Would it not be fair to list all alt accounts and business you transact in as well if you want clarity?

Only those who actively sell illegal goods would be "under investigation". As I said in OP selling several kinds of giftcards for 50% off or similar clearly seems illegal so sellers need to prove it's not. It's not like I'm proposing considering everyone guilty until proven otherwise. If you run a business that clearly looks illegal then you can't just ignore any PM asking about it. If you don't want to be bothered by that kind of PMs then just don't a run any business that clearly seems illegal.

I don't agree that it will hurt bitcoins as mainly CC's are used for the purchase of these gift cards and not bitcoins. Don't get what's hurting bitcoins in all this.

I think it hurts BTC's reputation because if someone new to bitcoin comes here and sees most goods being sold seem illegal then that will reinforce the stereotype "bitcoin is only for illegal stuff".

[erikalui]

There is no effective way of stopping only those that sell such cards. This is where the problem lies. Either we ban all gift card sales or we continue with the endless fight (from the staffs perspective).

You should join the "HateLeague" , which at the moment has 3 DT members , me , Lutpin and sho along with james and whywefight[QS is supposed to be in it too, but haven't recieved any confirmation from him, but pretty sure he's in with the "Tag the money launderers"as well]. I for one would be willing to tag them

I guess a coordinated effort from DT members should have an effect. However, the name is awful.

Don't care about the name, don't care if people selling legit cards have a hard time.  At least something worthwhile is being done to combat this.  Let the folks selling gift cards sell them on another forum is what I would argue.  There's waaaaay too much potential for abuse.  There are too many carders and crackers running about and they're quite obviously not going to tell the truth about their cards' provenance.

Oh well. Bitcoins too are used for money laundering and is still not considered legal in any country. What's your argument for this? Doesn't it have potential for abuse? Aren't there way too many scammers out here? What about account sales? Aren't people scamming by buying accounts with reputation? Forget about signature campaigns and spammers. There are numerous ways of money laundering on this forum and too much to say about all of them.

The obviously illegal products are already banned on the forum and users who were selling illegal methods/guides were warned about the same. Red trust is the best way to get rid of such sellers.

I don't agree that it will hurt bitcoins as mainly CC's are used for the purchase of these gift cards and not bitcoins. Don't get what's hurting bitcoins in all this.

I think it hurts BTC's reputation because if someone new to bitcoin comes here and sees most goods being sold seem illegal then that will reinforce the stereotype "bitcoin is only for illegal stuff".

Even when I came to this forum, I was asked if my cards are bought via illegal methods and I never knew that people could buy these cards via hacked cards. I never blamed bitcoins for it but rather the users who are buying/selling such gift cards. No currency is bad if it's used for illegal purposes but instead we should only blame the people misusing it. Scammers would scam using any method and not only make use of bitcoins.

[gregyoung14]

There is no effective way of stopping only those that sell such cards. This is where the problem lies. Either we ban all gift card sales or we continue with the endless fight (from the staffs perspective).
...
I guess a coordinated effort from DT members should have an effect. However, the name is awful.

Personally I do think banning the sell of giftcards would help a lot but it's very arguable I guess. But at least coordinated effort from DT members against clearly illegal carders will help.

So every one will be under investigation by the new forum gestapo or just active sellers?
Be careful that you do not become the issue of the forum by doling out your brand of justice here.
Its a slippery slope and I know a lot of the ole folk use multiple accounts to push things and make people feel stupid for saying contrary.

Having to prove legitimacy is a interesting issue. If I was questioned out of the blue by pm by some one that is not in the transaction,I would tell them to piss off! Its one thing to ask but another to neg rep a person because they do not play your brand of baseball.
Would it not be fair to list all alt accounts and business you transact in as well if you want clarity?

Only those who actively sell illegal goods would be "under investigation". As I said in OP selling several kinds of giftcards for 50% off or similar clearly seems illegal so sellers need to prove it's not. It's not like I'm proposing considering everyone guilty until proven otherwise. If you run a business that clearly looks illegal then you can't just ignore any PM asking about it. If you don't want to be bothered by that kind of PMs then just don't a run any business that clearly seems illegal.

I don't agree that it will hurt bitcoins as mainly CC's are used for the purchase of these gift cards and not bitcoins. Don't get what's hurting bitcoins in all this.

I think it hurts BTC's reputation because if someone new to bitcoin comes here and sees most goods being sold seem illegal then that will reinforce the stereotype "bitcoin is only for illegal stuff".

I think so too. But if you really think about it. This just cant be helped. People would almost always find away to get things their way. Even if that would mean going through the illegal stuff.

[notlist3d]

Since I myself sell gift cards, I wouldn't agree with banning the sale of git cards on the forum. However, there are some obvious users who trade illegal gift cards as well as keys that are bought from stolen credit cards and they sell it at 20-25% face value. I would like that it should stop but still there is no way to prove they are illegit unless the websites are contacted and informed about the same. Also, there are many members who buy these illegally obtained gift cards. Don't get what they get out of it.

I don't agree that it will hurt bitcoins as mainly CC's are used for the purchase of these gift cards and not bitcoins. Don't get what's hurting bitcoins in all this.

I think the discount is a strong way of detecting these carded gift cards.  When you see GiftCards at 75 percent... there is a reason on most there are very few people are normally willing to let go for 3/4 of value.  Another good way is asking to see receipt of paying with cash... but arguably this could be defeated.     

Sadly I think this is a moot point as some are obviously ok with buying carded CG... which is honestly sad.  It should catch up with them eventually companies do track addresses of where carded items were sent to.

[EcuaMobi]

I think so too. But if you really think about it. This just cant be helped. People would almost always find away to get things their way. Even if that would mean going through the illegal stuff.

True but tagging them would at least make it more difficult to them and/or slow their illegal business and/or at least push their business to another site, protecting somehow bitcoin's reputation.

Sadly I think this is a moot point as some are obviously ok with buying carded CG... which is honestly sad.  It should catch up with them eventually companies do track addresses of where carded items were sent to.

I don't think it's a moot point. If most non-GC-seller trusted users agree it should be stopped then we can reach an agreement and try to stop them. Of course not everyone will agree.

[whywefight]

Great move! I am in!

[Zeke2345]

Great move! I am in!

Think you where already mentioned in OPs open address.

If this is about bitcoins reputation around the web,there are a lot of other areas I would target as well.
Racism,sexism and homophobia are great places to work on if you want to change bitcoin into more of a mainstream tool.

Lending is also a predatory business that mostly goes after the people that are going through a rough patch or are stuck there.
So if we want to eliminate giftcard scammers,we should also be looking to wipe that aspect clean.
If thats the case maybe the transacting in accounts as well,because that to leads to scamming and misleading posts.
Maybe limit one account per person and be done with it.
Create a peon system where only the anointed few at the top can select one lucky account to move from Junior to member where he must suck hole for 2 years to become full member.
If shady business is the real issue wipe the whole aspect out,not just something that detracts from other business ventures.

When you create this it will turn off more people then you think. Already a bit of a issue with a closed shop mentality on some sides of the forum.
Add a lynch mob with powers and its a quick ride to the bottom. But I know I am in the few on this thinking and will let others speak.


Also suffer from paranoia

[erikalui]

Since I myself sell gift cards, I wouldn't agree with banning the sale of git cards on the forum. However, there are some obvious users who trade illegal gift cards as well as keys that are bought from stolen credit cards and they sell it at 20-25% face value. I would like that it should stop but still there is no way to prove they are illegit unless the websites are contacted and informed about the same. Also, there are many members who buy these illegally obtained gift cards. Don't get what they get out of it.

I don't agree that it will hurt bitcoins as mainly CC's are used for the purchase of these gift cards and not bitcoins. Don't get what's hurting bitcoins in all this.

I think the discount is a strong way of detecting these carded gift cards.  When you see GiftCards at 75 percent... there is a reason on most there are very few people are normally willing to let go for 3/4 of value.  Another good way is asking to see receipt of paying with cash... but arguably this could be defeated.     

Sadly I think this is a moot point as some are obviously ok with buying carded CG... which is honestly sad.  It should catch up with them eventually companies do track addresses of where carded items were sent to.

It's mainly with Amazon and Starbucks (most of the gift cards are from starbucks) and these websites should be able to detect these gift cards when they are redeemed and take immediate action. Amazon is quicker in cancelling these illegal cards but some are just too fast in getting their product. Selling at 75% off and mentioning that cards will expire does help in detecting such scammers as Amazon and Starbucks cards never expire.

I don't think it's a moot point. If most non-GC-seller trusted users agree it should be stopped then we can reach an agreement and try to stop them. Of course not everyone will agree.

It's not about non-GC-sellers or those who sell gift cards agreeing or disagreeing. The point here is why punish those who are selling their legit gift cards due to scammers/illegal card dealers. When Amazon/Starbucks have not removed the option to pay with a CC even though many use stolen cards, it doesn't seem logical for the forum to stop all the sales. When people suggested that newbies should not be allowed to post in Digital Goods/Currency Exchange sections, I too opposed that as not all newbies are scammers. Stopping all sales/exchanges doesn't make illegal sales/exchanges stop.

[EcuaMobi]

If this is about bitcoins reputation around the web,there are a lot of other areas I would target as well.
Racism,sexism and homophobia are great places to work on if you want to change bitcoin into more of a mainstream tool.

Lending is also a predatory business that mostly goes after the people that are going through a rough patch or are stuck there.
...

It's not about non-GC-sellers or those who sell gift cards agreeing or disagreeing. The point here is why punish those who are selling their legit gift cards due to scammers/illegal card dealers. When Amazon/Starbucks have not removed the option to pay with a CC even though many use stolen cards, it doesn't seem logical for the forum to stop all the sales. When people suggested that newbies should not be allowed to post in Digital Goods/Currency Exchange sections, I too opposed that as not all newbies are scammers. Stopping all sales/exchanges doesn't make illegal sales/exchanges stop.

It seems both of you are somewhat off-topic:

@Zeke2345, let's focus on stopping giftcard money laundering for the moment. We can leave the rest for other threads. Feel free to create them if you think they're required.

@erikalui, while I do think we should ban selling gift cards and you clearly do not this is not the subject of this thread. I do agree it's arguable and I don't want to even get into that.
As stated on OP the subject here is stopping the sellers who clearly sell illegally obtained cards. It seems to me you agree on that.