Split BFL thread?

[gmaxwell]

It's basically impossible to find any actual news about BFL amid the 130 pages of "LOL SCAM!!" "No U!" "I LIK UR DONGS".  Josh asked me to clean it up, but it basically an impossible task at this point. I offered instead to split the thread (e.g. break it at the top post) but he declined.  Well, regardless of what BFL staff thinks, I think it would ultimately be better for everyone to keep the polite, informed, and on-topic discussion in a separate thread from the madcap forum drama.

Does anyone have any sane reasons I shouldn't do this?

(Actual reasoned responses will count a lot more to me than poll results)

[repentance]

It's basically impossible to find any actual news about BFL amid the 130 pages of "LOL SCAM!!" "No U!" "I LIK UR DONGS".  Josh asked me to clean it up, but it basically an impossible task at this point. I offered instead to split the thread (e.g. break it at the top post) but he declined.  Well, regardless of what BFL staff thinks, I think it would ultimately be better for everyone to keep the polite, informed, and on-topic discussion in a separate thread from the madcap forum drama.

Does anyone have any sane reasons I shouldn't do this?

(Actual reasoned responses will count a lot more to me than poll results)

My main question is how you're going to stop the split from becoming just as out of control as the original. People have tried starting new threads in the past in an attempt to create a place for reasoned discussion and they've always ended up devolving into yet another clusterfuck - thus the reason why there's now only one BFL thread.

Maybe encourage people who want more reasoned discussion to use Service Discussion or Service Announcements rather than Custom Hardware for their threads and tolerate less bullshit over there.

I think the trolling in Custom Hardware has reached ridiculous levels but I also think that any solution has to encompass all ASIC vendor threads and not just those related to BFL.

[smoothie]

I think what the community discusses is a good indicator of the seriousness of a topic.

It isn't just one person trolling or putting BS in that thread (I am one of them I admit.) but my views are genuine and honest. If people can't take what others have to say, then they should get their information from the source....i.e. BFL website.

[smoothie]

Wasn't it you who requested everyone stop making BFL threads and use the original?

Hence why we are all in that one thread?

also it is true. Making another thread will do nothing. People will troll it anyway.

[cosmicone]

repentance has it right.  This forum seems to love drama...

Spilt the thread, and unless one is locked, you'll have two threads to deal with in a couple months... well, that is unless BFL does deliver, then this whole exercise becomes moot.

[smoothie]

It's basically impossible to find any actual news about BFL amid the 130 pages of "LOL SCAM!!" "No U!" "I LIK UR DONGS".  Josh asked me to clean it up, but it basically an impossible task at this point. I offered instead to split the thread (e.g. break it at the top post) but he declined.  Well, regardless of what BFL staff thinks, I think it would ultimately be better for everyone to keep the polite, informed, and on-topic discussion in a separate thread from the madcap forum drama.

Does anyone have any sane reasons I shouldn't do this?

(Actual reasoned responses will count a lot more to me than poll results)

My main question is how you're going to stop the split from becoming just as out of control as the original. People have tried starting new threads in the past in an attempt to create a place for reasoned discussion and they've always ended up devolving into yet another clusterfuck - thus the reason why there's now only one BFL thread.

Maybe encourage people who want more reasoned discussion to use Service Discussion or Service Announcements rather than Custom Hardware for their threads and tolerate less bullshit over there.

I think the trolling in Custom Hardware has reached ridiculous levels but I also think that any solution has to encompass all ASIC vendor threads and not just those related to BFL.

Guys, quick! Go to the Service Discussion and Service Announcement subforums just in case! 

[gmaxwell]

I think the trolling in Custom Hardware has reached ridiculous levels but I also think that any solution has to encompass all ASIC vendor threads and not just those related to BFL.

I'm not sure if you noticed but I did split & split/nuke jobs with the tails of both the avalon and btcfpga threads.  The difference is that I was willing to go back through a month of history in those and split off most of the tripe and I'm not willing to do something that selective with BFL (just because of the sheer size and low density of signal to tripe, as well as the high density of borderline posts).   I think the other vendors are already better but not good, but right now better is all I can hope for with the current forum culture and policies.  I believe that part of what Josh reached out to me is that he felt that I was being unfair by cleaning up the other threads, and he's right... though I'm not intentionally being unfair and I'd like to fix it.

My preference would be for the vendors to have stickies and potentially locked (or at least ruthlessly cleaned with no promise of fairness) announcement threads where they constantly update the top posts.  This has worked more or less well for the pool subforum in the past.  I've proposed this before but didn't get takers on it... and it's not just something I can impose since it would need people to actually update the posts.  I can, however, split off and lock dramafests unilaterally. 

[mem]

I think the trolling in Custom Hardware has reached ridiculous levels but I also think that any solution has to encompass all ASIC vendor threads and not just those related to BFL.

I'm not sure if you noticed but I did split & split/nuke jobs with the tails of both the avalon and btcfpga threads.  The difference is that I was willing to go back through a month of history in those and split off most of the tripe and I'm not willing to do something that selective with BFL (just because of the sheer size and low density of signal to tripe, as well as the high density of borderline posts).   I think the other vendors are already better but not good, but right now better is all I can hope for with the current forum culture and policies.  I believe that part of what Josh reached out to me is that he felt that I was being unfair by cleaning up the other threads, and he's right... though I'm not intentionally being unfair and I'd like to fix it.

sounds like you will be sifting through shit to claim the nuggety goodness that is BFL.

[Gomeler]

There is very little in the way of moderation done on this forum. Why start now? Or rather, why moderate just one topic instead of the entire forum or select sub-forums? I am not one for restricting conversation but the amount of non-constructive drivel that is posted makes this website for the most part useless. I'm not sure if Bitcoin attracts trolls or if the lack of repercussions permits them to flourish but something needs to change for this website to be a useful platform for discussion.

I propose make more sub-forums like the mining speculation forum and have no rules there. Heavily moderate the forums where actual facts are discussed. If the trolls want, they can go troll speculation sub-forums without burying facts in their crap.

[Bogart]

The permanent solution is probably to give the vendors mod powers within their own threads, to delete messages and such.

[smoothie]

The permanent solution is probably to give the vendors mod powers within their own threads, to delete messages and such.

WOW this would not be a good idea. Yes that's like giving PirateAt40 mod powers to his original BTCST thread. Great idea! 

[Maged]

My main question is how you're going to stop the split from becoming just as out of control as the original.

This. Absolutely this. I check the ASIC threads from time to time, but I can only do so much. Yet, I've still deleted hundreds of posts despite being limited to the global moderation rules. You guys don't even have that limitation since theymos has given the Mining board moderators autonomy! So, you need to either more actively moderate this board or you need to ask theymos for more moderators to be appointed. Anything else is just going to make things worse.

[Monster Tent]

Cant BFL start their own news thread and keep it locked ?

[smoothie]

Cant BFL start their own news thread and keep it locked ?

Yup they can. Obviously they weren't smart enough to do that yet they are coming out with these fairy-tale unicorn ASICs.

[gmaxwell]

The permanent solution is probably to give the vendors mod powers within their own threads, to delete messages and such.

WOW this would not be a good idea. Yes that's like giving PirateAt40 mod powers to his original BTCST thread. Great idea!  

They can, — and in some cases have— started their own forums for all the value that a privately controlled echo chamber may provide.  I think there is value in having a wider diversity of views and keeping more things in a common discussion place... but the openness of this forum has invited people who are so viciously (and, sometimes, irrationally) negative that people actually miss the smaller number of genuine thoughtfully argued concerns.  I don't know how to solve it, but I do know how to make it so there are fewer messages to read.

Cant BFL start their own news thread and keep it locked ?

I'd be quite happy if parties had announcement threads (I don't know that there is really any reason to keep them locked— I can simply split off old responses regularly without much trouble. I'd recommended this in the past.

This. Absolutely this. I check the ASIC threads from time to time, but I can only do so much. Yet, I've still deleted hundreds of posts despite being limited to the global moderation rules. You guys don't even have that limitation since theymos has given the Mining board moderators autonomy! So, you need to either more actively moderate this board or you need to ask theymos for more moderators to be appointed. Anything else is just going to make things worse.

I've deleted many of posts too.  Many of them very quickly so perhaps they haven't been noticed— crap like bazarro porn mashups with pictures of the family members of asic people.  Some of that is now moved off the forum.  ... some people here should be ashamed of themselves.

You can start telling me what I _need_ to do when I get the authority to ban people and when the overall forum adopts a policy which is less all-is-fair. Until then, it's going to be horrible... and when I see a particularly bad example that I can fix easily I'll continue to do so.

[Bogart]

The permanent solution is probably to give the vendors mod powers within their own threads, to delete messages and such.

WOW this would not be a good idea. Yes that's like giving PirateAt40 mod powers to his original BTCST thread. Great idea! 

The vendors would just have this power for their one "official" thread, and users would be made aware of this.

If users felt like they were being censored, they could still post in the other threads like always.

[CoinHoarder]

I vote NO because there are only 2 moderators on this sub forum, and when you guys are away, things will just go back to normal.

A moderated thread won't stop anyone from posting whatever they want in it... unless you want to sit and hit the refresh button on the custom hardware sub forum all day...

[Monster Tent]

What about all the troll posts that BFL makes that contain no new news but simply bash other manufacturers or are purely marketing bullshit ?

[Inaba]

In a perfect world, a locked thread would work.  But in the world of Bitcointalk, the only thing a locked thread will generate is "BFL is censoring posts! Lollers!  ROFLCOPTER SCAM!" etc...  Same problem with moderating posts for the ASIC vendors, if not done by a disinterested third party.  I can't moderate a thread because anything I moderate would instantly be called censorship.  Look at people like Frizz... he creates at least 1 new account per day on the BFL forums to post crap and then comes over here crying when I delete his spam.  PuertoLibre and the rest of the Clown Crew have also gotten into the act of "Censorship" cries, even though I let a lot of negative stuff go on the BFL forums... I just delete the outright spam, personal attacks and over use of cussing for the most part.  Any reasonable, well thought out post is left intact, even if it's negative.  So I can only imagine what it would be like if I were to impose the same rules here on a thread of our own.  No, it has to come from a disinterested third party.  I trust Gmaxwell completely to do the right thing as far as moderation goes, even though I sometimes disagree with his conclusions... can't say the same thing for all moderators, but most moderators here don't have an agenda to push so I'm fine with them doing it.  

[smoothie]

What about all the troll posts that BFL makes that contain no new news but simply bash other manufacturers or are purely marketing bullshit ?

That can be tolerated because they are untouchable.