Altcoins are a prisoner's dilemma and not possible to beat Bitcoin

[kelsey]

seriously i wasn't countering (or caring) about any of your arguments either way, i was merely LOL'ing at the utter stupidity of that one quoted statement  

(for the record i'm no miner, nor a fan of pow or pos, i'm here because i'm a big fan of the possibility of a genuine p2p currency, which imo is yet to exist).

So you have no concept of mining , not a fan of PoW or PoS,
Only stupid thing I see is you wasting everyone's time, by commenting without any knowledge.
At the very least , you should give some details of this genuine p2p currency that does not exist yet or have you given that 0 Thought also.

just because i'm not a fan of such mining doesn't mean i have no knowledge of or haven't tested it, so don't jump to such conclusions.

i've been around alternative currencies a long time, i've plenty of concept of mining having mined btc/ltc etc early on. i've helped dev and tested plenty of cryptos, and have a ton of pos coins., i'm not a fan of pow or pos because i've got a pretty good concept of them

this seriously in itself is a wtf statement; "All Proof of Stake coins have intrinsic value, due to the factor they can make more of themselves."

and i think you should seriously rethink it, or most would switch off to the rest of your ravings.

[kiklo]

just because i'm not a fan of such mining doesn't mean i have no knowledge of or haven't tested it, so don't jump to such conclusions.

i've been around alternative currencies a long time, i've plenty of concept of mining having mined btc/ltc etc early on. i've helped dev and tested plenty of cryptos, and have a ton of pos coins., i'm not a fan of pow or pos because i've got a pretty good concept of them

this seriously in itself is a wtf statement; "All Proof of Stake coins have intrinsic value, due to the factor they can make more of themselves."

and i think you should seriously rethink it, or most would switch off to the rest of your ravings.

If the line is over your head
All Proof of Stake coins have intrinsic value, due to the factor they can make more of themselves
Ok, but don't insult it , if you have no logic to prove it false.

Ravings, there you go with insults again, seems all you have is speculation and accusations.
I sorry but you have not posted anything that shows any thought processes as of yet , try again.

Have you got any thoughts about the cryptocoin that does not yet exist or was that just another empty thought?


 

[kiklo]

At least you have seen the term intrinsic value , maybe you just forgot its meaning.
But hey as long as no Aussie tariffs are put on your Chinese dealings , you are not really worried about it.  

i've found though the nerdy IT crowd here is in general far removed from understanding the most basic market dynamics, currency or even basic math.

not to mention way too linear in understanding potential security flaws.

Please enlighten us.

where would i begin ?

Step 1

The Begining

Point A

Anywhere

ok begin with market dynamics

the 'price' v USD of bitcoin,

nothing more then the greater fool theory;  in this case the price of bitcoin is determined not by its intrinsic value, but rather by irrational beliefs and expectations of market participants. A price can be justified by a rational buyer under the belief that another party is willing to pay an even higher price.Or one may rationally have the expectation that the item can be resold to a "greater fool" later.

anyone brave or stupid enough to tell me that 99.9% of bitcoin holders on this forum, aren't holding simply to sell for a higher price to a greater fool later on?

(well tbh this isn't the only mechanism that got us to this point, there was off course manipulative bot trading).

 

FYI:
Funny it makes it look like you agree no PoW coins has intrinsic value, only speculation.
Which would fit with my statement the value is in the ASICS for PoW,
Can you not correlate the reference between a seed's intrinsic value and a PoS coin intrinsic value,
maybe you have a specific learning disability only in regards to Proof of Stake if you can't see it.

[kelsey]

kiklo, i think you're missing the point why i LOL'd at your statement.

"All Proof of Stake coins have intrinsic value, due to the factor they can make more of themselves"

is suggesting that the mechanism for POS coins having any intrinsic value is due to the fact they can make more of themselves; that's saying something that's valueless has value if it can produce more of its valueless self 

seeds aren't valueless even if they can't make more of themselves. seeds have intrinsic value over an above the ability to reproduce. having value already make them able to increase their intrinsic value if they can create even more.

[Vlad2Vlad]

kiklo, i think you're missing the point why i LOL'd at your statement.

"All Proof of Stake coins have intrinsic value, due to the factor they can make more of themselves"

is suggesting that the mechanism for POS coins having any intrinsic value is due to the fact they can make more of themselves; that's saying something that's valueless has value if it can produce more of its valueless self 

seeds aren't valueless even if they can't make more of themselves. seeds have intrinsic value over an above the ability to reproduce. having value already make them able to increase their intrinsic value if they can create even more.

Smart.  You go, girl! 

[kiklo]

kiklo, i think you're missing the point why i LOL'd at your statement.

"All Proof of Stake coins have intrinsic value, due to the factor they can make more of themselves"

is suggesting that the mechanism for POS coins having any intrinsic value is due to the fact they can make more of themselves; that's saying something that's valueless has value if it can produce more of its valueless self  

seeds aren't valueless even if they can't make more of themselves. seeds have intrinsic value over an above the ability to reproduce. having value already make them able to increase their intrinsic value if they can create even more.

Ok , i see where we have the problem,

Just because the market does not recognize their value does not mean that the intrinsic Value is not there.
And just because it has no value in your eyes, does not mean it does not have value in someone else's eyes.
I see its value, and to me it is important from a profit standpoint.

It is like this, oil had very little market value, until the automobile was created.
However it's intrinsic value was always there, it just the market was unable to utilize it at the time.

PoS can make more of their selves and move transactions at a much cheaper cost than PoW, for me this is an intrinsic value, not shared by PoW,
however if you can't see it No Worries, as with oil the Market valuation will catch on sooner or later.

The intrinsic value is the actual value of a company or an asset based on an underlying perception of its true value including all aspects of the business, in terms of both tangible and intangible factors.
This value may or may not be the same as the current market value.

 

FYI:
This is just to clearify not to pick at,
even the GMO Corn seeds with terminator technology , do produce at least 1 stalk with 3 or more ears of corn, so they do produce more than was purchased. 

[Vlad2Vlad]

The biggest problem with PoS is that it's not secure.  Until that issue is resolved discussing value is pointless since any real value will be stolen or destroyed, rendering that coin/asset high risk and worthless.

[kiklo]

The biggest problem with PoS is that it's not secure.  Until that issue is resolved discussing value is pointless since any real value will be stolen or destroyed, rendering that coin/asset high risk and worthless.

Ok ,
Prove it Crash ZEIT using one of your Tactics,

No Talk, Actions , prove it to everyone and end the speculation.

No Theories actually Real Word Evidence.
No offense but until you actually do it, it is kind of like saying

I can destroy the world banking system using the EMP pulse device , I built from old TV & Car Parts.

Sounds possible but I would have to see it to believe it.  

 

FYI:
Personally I hope you try corning the market tactic.  

FYI2:
Would you like to agree on a specific time and tactic?

FYI3:
Discussing Value is pointless.
That is silly, Value is always determined at specific time with specific criteria by different people,
but by your analogy BTC has no value because the PoW 51% attack tactic currently has no Defense.

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-mining-detente-ghash-io-51-issue/

"[GHash] got brazen at 55% from 2014-06-12 11:53:05 until 2014-06-13 09:45:24 GMT, for almost 24 hours. And prior to that, it seems to have tested the waters over a period of 10 days or so, perhaps gauging the public's reaction."

Funny today Ghash is only at 1%.
https://blockchain.info/pools

[r0ach]

When you reply to a thread trying to shill for some altcoin nobody has ever heard of and you constantly spam the word "Zeit" in bold letters over and over like a 4am infomercial it just makes everyone think you're ultra desperate to try and unload your proof of poverty coin bags on the first random fool you can find.  You might want to take some type of different approach and not assume everyone reading your posts is a 10yr old.

[kiklo]

When you reply to a thread trying to shill for some altcoin nobody has ever heard of and you constantly spam the word "Zeit" in bold letters over and over like a 4am infomercial it just makes everyone think you're ultra desperate to try and unload your proof of poverty coin bags on the first random fool you can find.

When a Group of You SPAM FORUM after FORUM, with these lies.

The biggest problem with PoS is that it's not secure.  Until that issue is resolved discussing value is pointless since any real value will be stolen or destroyed, rendering that coin/asset high risk and worthless.

Hey ,
Buy whatever coin you want, but cut out the lies above.
PoS is easily as secure as PoW if not more, quit spreading fake PR and I 'll stop pointing out PoW flaws every time you do.
You're just not used to someone making valid points that destroy your argument.  


 

[generalizethis]

When you reply to a thread trying to shill for some altcoin nobody has ever heard of and you constantly spam the word "Zeit" in bold letters over and over like a 4am infomercial it just makes everyone think you're ultra desperate to try and unload your proof of poverty coin bags on the first random fool you can find.  You might want to take some type of different approach and not assume everyone reading your posts is a 10yr old.

I think he misread POS as Proof Of Shill. 

[kiklo]

When you reply to a thread trying to shill for some altcoin nobody has ever heard of and you constantly spam the word "Zeit" in bold letters over and over like a 4am infomercial it just makes everyone think you're ultra desperate to try and unload your proof of poverty coin bags on the first random fool you can find.  You might want to take some type of different approach and not assume everyone reading your posts is a 10yr old.

I think he misread POS as Proof Of Shill.  

Since you are a hopeless Monero shill, whatever.

 Hey , you should disable your web cam.  


 

[generalizethis]

When you reply to a thread trying to shill for some altcoin nobody has ever heard of and you constantly spam the word "Zeit" in bold letters over and over like a 4am infomercial it just makes everyone think you're ultra desperate to try and unload your proof of poverty coin bags on the first random fool you can find.  You might want to take some type of different approach and not assume everyone reading your posts is a 10yr old.

I think he misread POS as Proof Of Shill.  

Since you are a hopeless Monero shill, whatever.

 Hey , you should disable your web cam.  


 

Wrong movie.   

[kiklo]

Wrong movie.  

LOL,
That ok, it is still Funny.  

 

FYI:
And with that I take my leave,
r0ach you may resume your fudding now.

[r0ach]

Maidunsafecoin?  Dashtothetrash?  New Poverty Movement?

[Nxtblg]

Maidunsafecoin?  Dashtothetrash?  New Poverty Movement?

Saw that...we're in a downtrend right now, that's for sure. No hot hand last forever; neither does a hot market.

My own take on the thread subject is essentially a simple-man's take. Bitcoin was the first and the biggest, and has the greatest network effect. It's the latter point that explains why the big BTC is going to be #1 for a very, very long time.

Just look at what the network effect - plus being numba 1 - has done for the greenback. The "Death of the Dollar" has been predicted for decades by people who knew the vulnerabilities of a fractional-reserve system. Give me enough time in the long-tail section of Amazon, and I can dig up at least one book from the 1970s that explains why the greenback "is" on its last legs.

And yet, the mighty dollar keeps ticking along as the #1 currency in the world. How's that for a demonstration of the network effect?

[r0ach]

Saw that...we're in a downtrend right now, that's for sure. No hot hand last forever; neither does a hot market.

My own take on the thread subject is essentially a simple-man's take. Bitcoin was the first and the biggest, and has the greatest network effect. It's the latter point that explains why the big BTC is going to be #1 for a very, very long time.

Just look at what the network effect - plus being numba 1 - has done for the greenback. The "Death of the Dollar" has been predicted for decades by people who knew the vulnerabilities of a fractional-reserve system. Give me enough time in the long-tail section of Amazon, and I can dig up at least one book from the 1970s that explains why the greenback "is" on its last legs.

And yet, the mighty dollar keeps ticking along as the #1 currency in the world. How's that for a demonstration of the network effect?

It's much more simple than that.  The fact is, no altcoin has improved upon the consensus mechanism of Bitcoin.  In fact, PoS is actually a downgrade.  No alt has been able to improve upon scalability without becoming a permissioned ledger or federated chain either, then they're not even decentralized currencies anymore...

[ArticMine]

...  No alt has been able to improve upon scalability without becoming a permissioned ledger or federated chain either, then they're not even decentralized currencies anymore...

This is simply not true. The Cryptonote adaptive blocksize limit when combined with a tail emission as implemented in Monero is a major improvement in scalability over Bitcoin.

Edit: There is a lot more to Monero than anonymity.

[r0ach]

I just classify Monero as Bitcoin w/ ring sigs.  The argument as to whether a plausible deniability anonymity set is critical to a functioning currency or not is a separate one.

[ArticMine]

I just classify Monero as Bitcoin w/ ring sigs.  The argument as to whether a plausible deniability anonymity set is critical to a functioning currency or not is a separate one.

This has nothing to do with ring signatures or anonymity.

Edit: It does not work in Bytecoin or most other Cryptonote coins with the exception of Aeon, because they do not have a tail emission or the tail emission is very small (DigitalNote). It could be implemented in Dogecoin because it has a tail emission. It could also be implemented in Freicoin (using demurrage)