Paying full nodes , impossible at this point ?

[OmegaStarScream]

I was wondering if it would be possible (easily) for the Core developers to simply edit the source and make the Full nodes gets % of bitcoin from what the miners are getting on the first place ? something like DASH is doing or Maidsafe network is planning to do . and what do you think about it ?

[unamis76]

It's probably technically possible, but impossible in practice.

[Amph]

i would give them only a % of the fee for now which should be enough, not a % of the block reward itself

[unamis76]

i would give them only a % of the fee for now which should be enough, not a % of the block reward itself

Miners also collect money from fees... So to them it's pretty much the same as taking it from a block.

[Amph]

i would give them only a % of the fee for now which should be enough, not a % of the block reward itself

Miners also collect money from fees... So to them it's pretty much the same as taking it from a block.

yeah but i can argue that it's an overkill, they don't really need all this money, so a % can be given to the full noders

[unamis76]

i would give them only a % of the fee for now which should be enough, not a % of the block reward itself

Miners also collect money from fees... So to them it's pretty much the same as taking it from a block.

yeah but i can argue that it's an overkill, they don't really need all this money, so a % can be given to the full noders

It's not overkill. You're mining for the coins... Who tells you miners do not need their coins? I think it's exactly the opposite.

I don't think most miners and pools would be pleased to see a % of their income to be directed towards full nodes, at least for now.

[Amph]

i would give them only a % of the fee for now which should be enough, not a % of the block reward itself

Miners also collect money from fees... So to them it's pretty much the same as taking it from a block.

yeah but i can argue that it's an overkill, they don't really need all this money, so a % can be given to the full noders

It's not overkill. You're mining for the coins... Who tells you miners do not need their coins? I think it's exactly the opposite.

I don't think most miners and pools would be pleased to see a % of their income to be directed towards full nodes, at least for now.

still they are earning more than what they need to operate with their miners, so if they want to help the decentralization, there should be a rule that a % go to the full nodes

i'm not saying that they have not the rights to claim 100% of the fee and the reward, but they should let's say..."donate" a % to the full noders

[shorena]

The question is how do you distinguish a full node from a fake full node. Lets assume that is solved. Do you pay a node thats barely running (e.g. 2 hours a day) and holding 8 connections (no inbound connections) the same as one that is online 24/7 and holds >100 connections?

[unamis76]

still they are earning more than what they need to operate with their miners, so if they want to help the decentralization, there should be a rule that a % go to the full nodes

i'm not saying that they have not the rights to claim 100% of the fee and the reward, but they should let's say..."donate" a % to the full noders

I agree, they should, and they would probably be doing so if there were less nodes (and then again, I'm not sure if they would, some miners probably think their nodes are enough ). That being said, of course they're earning more than they need to operate the miners... Who would mine if they weren't earning more than they need to pay their bills?

The question is how do you distinguish a full node from a fake full node. Lets assume that is solved. Do you pay a node thats barely running (e.g. 2 hours a day) and holding 8 connections (no inbound connections) the same as one that is online 24/7 and holds >100 connections?

Identifying fake nodes would be the hardest part, indeed. The second part is probably not a big issue, I think, bitnodes distributed Bitcoin through their rewards program by examining nodes, giving points to those who were contributing more to the networking and distributing funds using this algorithm, so it's possible to prioritize rewards this way.

Suggestion box is open in order to avoid fake nodes

[ATguy]

The question is how do you distinguish a full node from a fake full node. Lets assume that is solved. Do you pay a node thats barely running (e.g. 2 hours a day) and holding 8 connections (no inbound connections) the same as one that is online 24/7 and holds >100 connections?

Ideally would be if every full node get few Satoshi for every relayed transaction it receives, check whether valid and relay to other nodes. But it is not technically possible as far as I know.

What could work is miner asking nodes about BTC address and for every received unique transaction give voluntarily some small part of the fee when including such transaction to the block, though only the nodes directly connected to miner could expect small BTC amounts.

[shorena]

The question is how do you distinguish a full node from a fake full node. Lets assume that is solved. Do you pay a node thats barely running (e.g. 2 hours a day) and holding 8 connections (no inbound connections) the same as one that is online 24/7 and holds >100 connections?

Ideally would be if every full node get few Satoshi for every relayed transaction it receives, check whether valid and relay to other nodes. But it is not technically possible as far as I know.

Maybe, but what is keeping me from relaying valid, but unlikely to confirm (0 fee) TX that would increase my payment?

What could work is miner asking nodes about BTC address and for every received unique transaction give voluntarily some small part of the fee when including such transaction to the block, though only the nodes directly connected to miner could expect small BTC amounts.

-snip-
Suggestion box is open in order to avoid fake nodes

I wish I had a solution, but for now Im fine paying 100 EUR a year to run a full node.

[odolvlobo]

A low number of full nodes is not much of an issue for those people that run full nodes because by running a full node, they know that transactions transactions they care about are valid. It is however an issue for those people not running a full node because they have no way verify transactions.

In short, there is no reason to pay full nodes because they already get a benefit from being a full node.

Furthermore, it is possible for full nodes to charge non-full nodes for access to their block chain. That would be a better system than being paid out of the block reward.

The question is how do you distinguish a full node from a fake full node.

You can always determine if a node is a full node by quizzing it about transactions in the block chain.

[shorena]

A low number of full nodes is not much of an issue for those people that run full nodes because by running a full node, they know that their transactions are secure. It is however an issue for those people not running a full node because they have no way verify transactions.

In short, there is no reason to pay full nodes because they already get a benefit from being a full node.

Furthermore, it is possible for full nodes to charge non-full nodes for access to their block chain. That would be a better system than being paid out of the block reward.

The question is how do you distinguish a full node from a fake full node.

You can always determine if a node is a full node by quizzing it about transactions in the block chain.

Whats keeping the node from relaying the request to another node and passing the answer to you? At the very least one could make a single node look like 1000.

[unamis76]

-snip-
Suggestion box is open in order to avoid fake nodes

I wish I had a solution, but for now Im fine paying 100 EUR a year to run a full node.

Slightly bit offtopic, but can you disclose what host do you have your node in?

I'm also fine with having VPS acting as nodes, and that's my way to contribute instead of directly donating to nodes. And I guess that's the key to have many nodes: individual distributed effort.

[shorena]

-snip-
Suggestion box is open in order to avoid fake nodes

I wish I had a solution, but for now Im fine paying 100 EUR a year to run a full node.

Slightly bit offtopic, but can you disclose what host do you have your node in?

I'm also fine with having VPS acting as nodes, and that's my way to contribute instead of directly donating to nodes. And I guess that's the key to have many nodes: individual distributed effort.

I still have one with 1and1[1], but the contract will expire soon. The disk is too small to run it without enable pruning. The new one[2] just synced yesterday (stats page isnt done yet) and is with netcup.de. I went for a mechanical disk to have some more room for the blockchain.

[1] http://213.165.91.169/
[2] http://188.68.53.44/

[countryfree]

I was wondering if it would be possible (easily) for the Core developers to simply edit the source and make the Full nodes gets % of bitcoin from what the miners are getting on the first place ? something like DASH is doing or Maidsafe network is planning to do . and what do you think about it ?

I don't like the idea as this would increase the volume of data and require more computing power. If you run a node with over 50 connections, the difference would be easy to notice, and since I'm a supporter of larger block sizes, I'm against anything which could slow nodes.

[-ck]

Been discussed MANY times before since people want to be rewarded for running a full node as some kind of "node reward". The short answer is: It's impossible. There's no way to prove you are a real node relaying real transactions or data without some "proof of work" - and guess what, "proof of work" is precisely what mining is. Then there'd be exactly the same arms race there is for regular mining rewards as there is for node rewards, the node rewards being in essence an altcoin built on top of the existing bitcoin, making it not worth mining "node rewards".

[MingLee]

Been discussed MANY times before since people want to be rewarded for running a full node as some kind of "node reward". The short answer is: It's impossible. There's no way to prove you are a real node relaying real transactions or data without some "proof of work" - and guess what, "proof of work" is precisely what mining is. Then there'd be exactly the same arms race there is for regular mining rewards as there is for node rewards, the node rewards being in essence an altcoin built on top of the existing bitcoin, making it not worth mining "node rewards".

Having a Proof-of-Work system certainly would be an interesting concept for Bitcoin, but I doubt most people could get behind it.

This would only turn Bitcoin into another system of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

[AliceWonderMiscreations]

The question is how do you distinguish a full node from a fake full node.

Bingo.

For me the incentive in running a full node is to help the network. It's not really needed, there are plenty of full nodes in Northern California and Western US - but in some parts of the world, finding peers with a low ping time is really hard.

Also the incentive for me, I don't have to trust someone else to verify transactions.

[AliceWonderMiscreations]

Been discussed MANY times before since people want to be rewarded for running a full node as some kind of "node reward". The short answer is: It's impossible. There's no way to prove you are a real node relaying real transactions or data without some "proof of work" - and guess what, "proof of work" is precisely what mining is. Then there'd be exactly the same arms race there is for regular mining rewards as there is for node rewards, the node rewards being in essence an altcoin built on top of the existing bitcoin, making it not worth mining "node rewards".

Having a Proof-of-Work system certainly would be an interesting concept for Bitcoin, but I doubt most people could get behind it.

This would only turn Bitcoin into another system of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

There is no system that will prevent that except for bloody revolution which always always eventually happens, and will happen again fairly soon. Bitcoin may be the only safe place to keep your value when it does happen.