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Author Topic: BITBOND update and request for feedback  (Read 3163 times)
amazingrando
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February 04, 2013, 05:04:55 PM
 #1

BITBOND ASIC call for feedback

Hello BITBONDers

I am sorry for the limited updates recently.  There have been a number of things going on behind the scenes to figure out a path forward.  With a high degree of confidence I can now share with you a plan for BITBOND.

First, let me apologize deeply for the suspension of payouts.  I had very high hopes of earning good returns for everyone involved and setting the stage for future work in GPGPU computing.  I feel strongly enough about what we were doing to quit a very good job to focus on this full time and worked 12 hour days throughout the summer and fall.  We developed several proprietary technologies to do more with less including 5850’s I had manufactured in China, PCB’s and wiring systems made here in the US, and software to manage and control over 200 netbooted rigs in a custom rack system.  While we tried our best, we simply could not do everything we needed to do in the timeframe we had.  Too much had never been done before by me (sometimes by anyone) and required far more resources than we had.  We desperately tried our best to make BITBOND successful.  I apologize for our failure.

Second, I would like to clear up some confusion.  Whether it’s Avalon ASICs, GLBSE, or BITBOND there is a shocking amount of misinformation, misunderstanding, defamation, and truly bizarre ideas on the forums.  Luckily there are quite a few cool heads, though perhaps not enough to keep the tinfoil hat crowd at bay.  Here is a list of facts to help fill in the gaps.

  • BITBOND started in April, 2012 and paid all payouts through the closing of GLBSE on October 5th, 2012.
  • BITBOND lost about 230 btc in the GLBSE closing.
  • October 5th through block reward halving on November 28, 2012, BITBOND paid out all payouts to the majority bondholders (the “85%”).
  • The majority bondholders bought their BITBONDs in May, July, and August and received their bonds via GLBSE like all other bondholders.
  • The majority bondholders received the same 2mh/s per bond and 105% PPS.  Everyone has the same bonds/bond terms
  • To give added protection to their large investment, the majority bondholders requested detailed contracts signed and notarized.
  • Due to the detailed contract terms, I was obliged to mine for them as long as possible, even when losing money
  • We had been working on a plan to move to Wenatchee, WA from Tacoma, WA.  This would have cut our power bill in half and given us room to expand considerably.  We learned that the cost of installing power from Douglas County PUD would be $40,000 to $60,000.  We simply could not afford the move.  Consequently, we were limited by the power we have at our current facility.
  • Meanwhile the GPUs we had custom manufactured in China had power routing issues (http://imgur.com/a/Jf3ME) that were burning out cards under heavy load.  This required rework from a PCB assembly and rework facility north of Seattle, which spanned almost two months, keeping 600 cards offline
  • We had significant delays in manufacturing and producing our custom power supply system (comprised of two PCBs and wiring harnesses assembled by hand) that, combined with card power issues limited our mining output to just under 200Gh/s
  • When the block reward halving occurred, BITBOND was producing just under 200Gh/s but paying out about 180Gh/s worth of payments each week.  The surplus was not enough to pay for the $4,000 per month power bills, facility rents, Internet access, or any salaries.
  • We had about $3500 in reserves (IIRC) at that time.  Therefore, BITBOND could not continue to operate.  I made the decision to stop payouts to the majority bondholders until ASICs arrived
  • I placed order #3431 with BFL for one mini-rig SC last year.  The majority bondholders and I determined that given BFL’s history it was too risky to pay for the order until there was evidence that BFL could produce a working ASIC at the performance levels they advertised.
  • In recent discussions with BFL Josh, BFL has decided not to honor our order because it was not paid.  He has given me a timeframe of April or May for an ASIC if paid for today.  I would guess it will be at last June.
  • Since block reward halving, most of our current mining revenue has gone towards fixed expenses, with a small amount left over saved for ASIC purchases
  • We have explored many avenues of liquidating our GPU equipment to buy coins to pay back bondholders and/or to buy ASICs to resume BITBOND payouts.  We have not yet found a firm that is willing to buy used custom hardware.  Most of our GPUs are old enough and used enough that they are not of interest to buyers (note that we have almost 100% 58xx cards)

The plan going forward

Through several sleepless nights, we have managed to pull together enough funds and to purchase 10 x Avalon ASIC units in batch 2.  This will provide about 660 GH/s.  It is far from the 1.5 TH/s we hoped to have with the BFL mini rig, but the Avalon ASICs have been proven to exist and work.  We should also receive them much sooner than putting in a BFL order now.

I am suggesting creating a new security on Cryptostocks called BITBOND ASIC.  All current BITBOND bonds will be exchanged 1:2 for BITBOND ASIC.  The new bonds will be 2.25 Mh/s each, payable at 100% PPS.  Thus, if you have 10 BITBOND, which provides 20 Mh/s at 105% PPS, through the exchange you will receive 50 Mh/s at 100% PPS.

BITBOND will no longer be perpetual.  Instead it will continue through 2014.

Avalon batch 2 is projected to start shipping March 5th.  If that date were to hold, I would expect to receive the ASICs around March 11th.  We will need a few days to get them into our facility, tested and configured for our environment.  Payouts would begin the following week, on Saturdays as before.

I would appreciate any constructive feedback on this approach.  If there are ways that I can improve the payouts I will try, but I would like to stick to what I feel confident I can commit to at this point.

Again, my deepest apologies.

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February 04, 2013, 05:20:08 PM
 #2

so

you are not going to pay october - today


"* Free:  2M/s BITBOND converts to 12.5Mh/s BITBOND.ASIC for free"

is now 2:1 (4mh instead of 12.5)


and

BITBOND will no longer be perpetual.  Instead it will continue through 2014.



yet bitcointalk thinks it's fine you are not labeled a scammer.


lets disclose who the 85% are. i think many would be interested in that information

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February 04, 2013, 05:24:16 PM
 #3

BITBOND ASIC call for feedback

Hello BITBONDers

I am sorry for the limited updates recently.  There have been a number of things going on behind the scenes to figure out a path forward.  With a high degree of confidence I can now share with you a plan for BITBOND.

First, let me apologize deeply for the suspension of payouts.

You paid out your 85% shareholders but left people like me in the cold. I took an incredible amount of heat from the community because people blamed me for investing with people who ended up defaulting. I was accused of being a scammer not least of all because I invested so much money with people like Hashking.

One of the shining jewels of BMF was BTC-MINING. I had 300 shares. I had over 500 at one point. But because of the crap I had to take I couldn't re-list my securities and keep them running. I was given one month to shut down. The community simply would not give me the time I needed to make things right. In an absolute mortal panic, I asked for help and Deprived gave me the suggestion of running an auction. I sold off the 300 BTC-MINING shares, which I paid 300 bitcoins for, recieving a grand total of 15 bitcoins.

At today's prices I lost almost $6,000 dollars. And this is not a business loss. In order to continue doing business in the community I had to assume personal liability for this loss.

While I don't hate you I want you to know that your return is far too late for a great many people, chiefly me I guess. You're also not alone. I had to auction off BitVPS, and we were forced to sell our extensive satoshidice holdings at 0.0037 as well. Literally, if I could just have recovered half the value from BTC-MINING -- even just half -- I would have been relatively okay, personally-financially speaking. If only I had known. If only someone had told me. If only I could have told the community that there was real value in my companies. Maybe I could have kept on trading and I wouldn't have had to sell over $6,000 of my gold and silver and my gibson SG guitar (which I still can't bear to ship, Mr. T. is probably angry at me). Maybe people wouldn't have accused me of losing so much money of investor's funds.

I didn't quote the rest of your message but I read it.

I am sorry to say I won't be able to participate in BITBOND because I lost all my money and all my shares. But i'm happy you were able to purchase 10 Avalon ASICs though. It was on my back but at least your remaining investors, whoever they are, will be happy.
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February 04, 2013, 05:26:19 PM
 #4

This is a MAJOR ripoff!

It could be end 2014 before you will even recieve your Avalon,

AND.................. I WANT MY OUTSTANDING DIVIDENDS NOW!!!!!

Placing ASIC preorders with our money (and dividends) is outrageous.
And now he has the idea to create BITBOND.ASIC which is TOTALLY owned by Investors, because we (the Investor) paid for the new hardware.

This calls for a Scammer and an Asshole Tag!




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February 04, 2013, 05:31:38 PM
 #5

How many BTC are exactly outstanding towards the "minority bondholders" (the 15% that were never paid after October)?

Have "majority bondholders" now pulled out or will they still receive BTC first, before the common folk after you receive ASICs?

Please release salaries etc. from your venture, since on one hand you kinda managed to operate at a loss + buy 10 ASICs but couldn't pay ~1/6th of your share holders.

Who are the majority bondholders, how many of them exist and how much of a share does each of them hold?

Why did you not just buy back bonds rather than stopping payouts (and not really communicating this to bondholders by the way)?

Why will your "new" (worse) contract still be priced and traded in BTC while your expenses are in USD? Instead of a continuous product, we're now betting on how much 50 MH/s will generate within a year and if you are even able to keep that amount of hash power online and running.

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February 04, 2013, 05:40:56 PM
 #6

So after scamming us up to now, you propose that we forget about our coins due, and look forward to accept another scam where we are supposed to lose 100% of our investment in 1 year.
You should try a political career.
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February 04, 2013, 05:45:47 PM
 #7

i'm surprised he doesn't try a forced buyback at the cryptostock ask price of .005 btc (amusing enough that someone wanting to sell at that price can't even find a buyer. shows how little people think of this)

i need to start a security at 1btc sell 10,000 shares. announce they are now worthless. then use the contract buyback clause to buy them back for pennies.

that would be fulfilling the contract better then is happening with this listing

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February 04, 2013, 06:57:33 PM
 #8

Let me try to answer the questions.

Camolist
From my spreadsheet you have 112 bonds, which translates to about 3 btc in unpaid payments.  If you have something constructive to add, please do so.  The majority owners are free to release their information if they choose.

usagi
I am terribly sorry about any consequences that suspension of payment has had.  What we hoped would be exceptional returns on our investment has been a loss for many people, myself included (far more than $6,000).  I know it is probably too late, but if there is anything I can do at this point to help (within my abilities) I will do so.

PsychoticBoy
As with Camolist, please let me know if you have anything constructive to add.  If I can provide back payments I will try to do so, but as there isn't a means to do that right now I cannot commit to that. 

The logic of buying Avalons for BITBOND is quite simple.  Having operated BTIBOND at a loss with very little cash left over and no one lining up to buy the hardware, I have had the option of paying back some of the payouts with no prospect of any payments in the future or buy hardware that could be used to provide payouts for the next almost two years.  The latter will result in far more being paid to bondholders as well as a restoration of some of the security's value.

If you have some constructive ideas about how we can liquidate equipment at reasonable price or otherwise gather funds to payback past payments, I am certainly open to hearing it.

Sukrim
There are 13,476 bonds held by minority bondholders.  55% have 10 or fewer bonds

I have been in ongoing discussions with the majority bondholders.  Unless there is some unavoidable legal rationale, they will receive payouts at the same time as any other bondholder.

I don't think I can release detailed financials at this point, but I can provide some general numbers.  Until the recent run-up in btc prices, we were earning about $9,000 a month from mining.  From that our monthly power bill for ~320A of 208v is $4,000.  We have been paying $2130 in rent.  Internet and other expenses is about $350 a month.  We have had no salary per se, but instead been paying the bare minimum (or less) bills of my brother and me.  We both have been working >40 hours/week to keep things running, save what we can, and liquidate surplus equipment.  Thus, in January we had about $2500 in net before paying for any food, housing, or bills for the two of us.  My personal bills for one month exceed that amount.  With the recent rise in bitcoin prices we have been able to finally pay bills and have a bit left over for buying ASICs.  Most of the ASICs money has come from selling hardware we are no longer using.

As I mention above, if the majority shareholders wish to release their information that is up to them.  Two wealthy investors own about 80,000 bonds.  The remainder is owned by a few other investors in their cohort.

You are absolutely right that I should have provided more information, more regularly.  I was reluctant to share information that I could not commit to.  The forums, and bitcoin in general, have a deep history of announcing things that they cannot deliver or later have to change, etc.  Knowing that I wasn't able to keep my commitment with BITBOND I did not want to give any details until I was sure.

I thought many times about buying back bonds.  The problem was the cost to do so.  Having virtually no cash or coins on hand, we could not afford it.  All I could do was keep running mining rigs to pay my fixed expenses and hope to get a small surplus to use to revitalize BITBOND.

Can you please elaborate on this thought about denominating in USD?  The bond was denominated in btc and any back payments are also in btc.  Unfortunately pricing for ASICs and paying for operating costs is all in USD.  As for paying power, the power costs are comparatively minute compared to today.  I will reserve some ASIC capacity to help pay for power, however the power costs should only be about $200 per month.  I am quite confident I can find that much each month.

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February 04, 2013, 07:29:07 PM
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Ok, if your expenses will be that low I guess PPS mining is actually one of the few exceptions where it might make sense to price in BTC. Still Bitcoin could tank in value (giving you an opportunity to buy back bonds *hint, hint*) leaving you suddenly with obligations that might be hard to cover. 200 USD per month in electricity though seems doable for anyone.

I would still be interested if there are actually dividends outstanding for these ~13.5k bonds in your opinion or not.

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February 04, 2013, 07:45:38 PM
 #10

Camolist
From my spreadsheet you have 112 bonds, which translates to about 3 btc in unpaid payments.  If you have something constructive to add, please do so.  The majority owners are free to release their information if they choose.

that is correct and the number i quote in the scam accusation thread. thanks for confirming it here publically. i'd have to double check the unpaid dividends part though as that's about half of the rough guess i made before

so either pay up the dividends or refund the cost of the shares (around 45 btc i can check the csv for exacts if needed) to myself along with all other "small" investors which make up the 15% you are refusing to pay

or is demanding what is owed not constructive enough for you?

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February 04, 2013, 08:01:08 PM
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What about the 2369 BTC that were loaned to you for upgrading your operation, and had a clause that it would be paid back in full?
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February 04, 2013, 08:01:09 PM
 #12

Let me try to answer the questions.

Camolist
From my spreadsheet you have 112 bonds, which translates to about 3 btc in unpaid payments.  If you have something constructive to add, please do so.  The majority owners are free to release their information if they choose.

usagi
I am terribly sorry about any consequences that suspension of payment has had.  What we hoped would be exceptional returns on our investment has been a loss for many people, myself included (far more than $6,000).  I know it is probably too late, but if there is anything I can do at this point to help (within my abilities) I will do so.

PsychoticBoy
As with Camolist, please let me know if you have anything constructive to add.  If I can provide back payments I will try to do so, but as there isn't a means to do that right now I cannot commit to that. 

The logic of buying Avalons for BITBOND is quite simple.  Having operated BTIBOND at a loss with very little cash left over and no one lining up to buy the hardware, I have had the option of paying back some of the payouts with no prospect of any payments in the future or buy hardware that could be used to provide payouts for the next almost two years.  The latter will result in far more being paid to bondholders as well as a restoration of some of the security's value.

If you have some constructive ideas about how we can liquidate equipment at reasonable price or otherwise gather funds to payback past payments, I am certainly open to hearing it.

Sukrim
There are 13,476 bonds held by minority bondholders.  55% have 10 or fewer bonds

I have been in ongoing discussions with the majority bondholders.  Unless there is some unavoidable legal rationale, they will receive payouts at the same time as any other bondholder.

I don't think I can release detailed financials at this point, but I can provide some general numbers.  Until the recent run-up in btc prices, we were earning about $9,000 a month from mining.  From that our monthly power bill for ~320A of 208v is $4,000.  We have been paying $2130 in rent.  Internet and other expenses is about $350 a month.  We have had no salary per se, but instead been paying the bare minimum (or less) bills of my brother and me.  We both have been working >40 hours/week to keep things running, save what we can, and liquidate surplus equipment.  Thus, in January we had about $2500 in net before paying for any food, housing, or bills for the two of us.  My personal bills for one month exceed that amount.  With the recent rise in bitcoin prices we have been able to finally pay bills and have a bit left over for buying ASICs.  Most of the ASICs money has come from selling hardware we are no longer using.

As I mention above, if the majority shareholders wish to release their information that is up to them.  Two wealthy investors own about 80,000 bonds.  The remainder is owned by a few other investors in their cohort.

You are absolutely right that I should have provided more information, more regularly.  I was reluctant to share information that I could not commit to.  The forums, and bitcoin in general, have a deep history of announcing things that they cannot deliver or later have to change, etc.  Knowing that I wasn't able to keep my commitment with BITBOND I did not want to give any details until I was sure.

I thought many times about buying back bonds.  The problem was the cost to do so.  Having virtually no cash or coins on hand, we could not afford it.  All I could do was keep running mining rigs to pay my fixed expenses and hope to get a small surplus to use to revitalize BITBOND.

Can you please elaborate on this thought about denominating in USD?  The bond was denominated in btc and any back payments are also in btc.  Unfortunately pricing for ASICs and paying for operating costs is all in USD.  As for paying power, the power costs are comparatively minute compared to today.  I will reserve some ASIC capacity to help pay for power, however the power costs should only be about $200 per month.  I am quite confident I can find that much each month.

Better late than never. Next time don't wait around for me to start pushing the point.

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February 04, 2013, 08:10:00 PM
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Placing ASIC preorders with our money (and dividends) is outrageous.
And now he has the idea to create BITBOND.ASIC which is TOTALLY owned by Investors, because we (the Investor) paid for the new hardware.

This. You should have paid our dividends first before even thinking about ASICs. The scam continues...

Those who cause problems for others also cause problems for themselves.
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February 04, 2013, 09:04:42 PM
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Placing ASIC preorders with our money (and dividends) is outrageous.
And now he has the idea to create BITBOND.ASIC which is TOTALLY owned by Investors, because we (the Investor) paid for the new hardware.

This. You should have paid our dividends first before even thinking about ASICs. The scam continues...

I explained the logic and believe the math is sound.  Buying ASICs will produce the highest return for bondholders over the remainder of the bond term.

However, as I am soliciting feedback on the plan forward, let me ask a question.  There are simply not enough money to repay the back payments plus future payments.  In fact there is not enough for all back payments, but it is close.   Through Feb 2, 2012 total back payments to the minority bondholders is 772.79 btc.  At $20.14 that is $15,563.99.  Would you, the minority shareholders, rather have the back payments and no future payments - essentially be bought out for the price of your back payments, or have the mining income I have outlined through 2014?  I know that there are people who wanted an Avalon ASIC in batch 2 and would be willing to buy my orders.

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February 04, 2013, 09:09:37 PM
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I think until we are supposed to get back most of our investment in a reasonable timeframe we might reach an agreement.
So when do you expect to get the ASICs and start paying dividends?
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February 04, 2013, 09:12:20 PM
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Placing ASIC preorders with our money (and dividends) is outrageous.
And now he has the idea to create BITBOND.ASIC which is TOTALLY owned by Investors, because we (the Investor) paid for the new hardware.

This. You should have paid our dividends first before even thinking about ASICs. The scam continues...

I explained the logic and believe the math is sound.  Buying ASICs will produce the highest return for bondholders over the remainder of the bond term.

However, as I am soliciting feedback on the plan forward, let me ask a question.  There are simply not enough money to repay the back payments plus future payments.  In fact there is not enough for all back payments, but it is close.   Through Feb 2, 2012 total back payments to the minority bondholders is 772.79 btc.  At $20.14 that is $15,563.99.  Would you, the minority shareholders, rather have the back payments and no future payments - essentially be bought out for the price of your back payments, or have the mining income I have outlined through 2014?  I know that there are people who wanted an Avalon ASIC in batch 2 and would be willing to buy my orders.

You violated the original contract by not paying the Investors their rightfull belongings, the outstanding dividends and thus you are a Scammer.

Don`t come up with  "I bought ASICs, you will thank me later" Bullshit.

Pay your debt!
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February 04, 2013, 09:18:30 PM
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I think until we are supposed to get back most of our investment in a reasonable timeframe we might reach an agreement.
So when do you expect to get the ASICs and start paying dividends?

Shipments for batch 2 are supposed to start March 5th.  If our orders shipped then, it would take about 5-7 business days to get here.  I'm guessing during the week of the 11th.  If that's the case, the first payout would at the end of the following week, assuming everything works as expected.

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February 04, 2013, 09:28:23 PM
 #18

I think until we are supposed to get back most of our investment in a reasonable timeframe we might reach an agreement.
So when do you expect to get the ASICs and start paying dividends?

Shipments for batch 2 are supposed to start March 5th.  If our orders shipped then, it would take about 5-7 business days to get here.  I'm guessing during the week of the 11th.  If that's the case, the first payout would at the end of the following week, assuming everything works as expected.

OK. As a sign of goodwill from my part I'm now going to take down http://amazingrand0.blogspot.com until April 15th (forever if you perform. If you don't it will be back with a vengeance.)

About the expected end of the bond, I would like to add a clause that it won't end before all investors recover 100% of their investment.
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February 04, 2013, 09:31:17 PM
 #19

If you cant make a profit with GPU mining what makes you think ASIC mining will be any different ? For the dickheads who dont get it, mining profitability will end up the same whether you have 160gh of GPU or 3tb of ASIC. The market should avoid mining companies like the plague because its now proven that large scale mining is just as barely profitable as small scale.

Unless you have all of the below -

1. Rent Free
2. Minimal Elecricity Cost

You will NEVER get your initial investment back, let alone make any profit. Show me one public listed mining company where this has happened.

You get a better return blowing your coins on satoshidice.

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February 04, 2013, 09:41:14 PM
 #20

For the dickheads who dont get it

Thanx, but now is a bit late for such considerations. We are now trying to minimize damages for everyone.
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