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Author Topic: Avalon Asic Design Discussion  (Read 7847 times)
Nemesis
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February 08, 2013, 04:23:28 AM
 #41

How you define "should have been done" is arbitrary. Obviously Avalon has done it the right way for them: a design with many small 110nm chips was simpler and allowed them to ship before BFL who is struggling with fewer more complex 65nm chips.

by ship, you meant you received one? If not, STFU already.

Avalon has working chips, BFL doesn't. Plain and simple.

working? you meant for 24hrs max? Yes thats your definition of working.

Plain and simple.

For any sane person, Avalon is still working on their units still. BFL has done the design for 65nm chips which is the hardest part. Testing these chips is very trivial (either work or dont), with only 8 chips per board, its even less prone to bugs.
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Nemesis
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February 08, 2013, 04:25:27 AM
 #42

BFL design is how it should have been done there should be no reason to need that many chips

Each design has its merits.  The Avalon design is cheaper do design and has lower startup costs.  The BFL design is much more expensive to start but is cheaper to manufacture and cheaper to run long term.  The real prize goes to who builds first, and in this case it is Avalon.  If they can pump out two or three rounds of these they make a pretty good profit.  There also may be a secondary market for these chips outside of bitcoin.  



What a pile of wishful thinking.

Do you survive life on daily basis with all the big IFs?

Secondary market for these chips? LOL

kev7112001
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February 08, 2013, 04:31:42 AM
 #43

BFL has had a working prototype and Avalon the same the only difference between the two is Avalon sent there prototypes to two people, then claim there done. Well if you can send 2 you can send them all.

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February 08, 2013, 04:32:56 AM
 #44

How you define "should have been done" is arbitrary. Obviously Avalon has done it the right way for them: a design with many small 110nm chips was simpler and allowed them to ship before BFL who is struggling with fewer more complex 65nm chips.

by ship, you meant you received one? If not, STFU already.

Avalon has working chips, BFL doesn't. Plain and simple.

working? you meant for 24hrs max? Yes thats your definition of working.

Those all appear to be software-related issues. You know, the kind of issues BFL hasn't run into yet because they don't have working chips to start developing the software for yet.

Buy & Hold
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February 08, 2013, 04:52:43 AM
 #45

BFL has had a working prototype

BFL has never had a working prototype.
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February 08, 2013, 04:53:18 AM
 #46

How you define "should have been done" is arbitrary. Obviously Avalon has done it the right way for them: a design with many small 110nm chips was simpler and allowed them to ship before BFL who is struggling with fewer more complex 65nm chips.

by ship, you meant you received one? If not, STFU already.

Avalon has working chips, BFL doesn't. Plain and simple.

working? you meant for 24hrs max? Yes thats your definition of working.

Those all appear to be software-related issues. You know, the kind of issues BFL hasn't run into yet because they don't have working chips to start developing the software for yet.

Is this even a debate or arguement? You dont know anything for sure or just purely speculate

You trust what they say? Oh yes, it doesnt matter u trust them or not, they already said... NO BS TERM OF SALE... no questions, no guarantee

software related? hmmm k.
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February 08, 2013, 05:16:48 AM
 #47

BFL design is how it should have been done there should be no reason to need that many chips

Each design has its merits.  The Avalon design is cheaper do design and has lower startup costs.  The BFL design is much more expensive to start but is cheaper to manufacture and cheaper to run long term.  The real prize goes to who builds first, and in this case it is Avalon.  If they can pump out two or three rounds of these they make a pretty good profit.  There also may be a secondary market for these chips outside of bitcoin.  



What a pile of wishful thinking.

Do you survive life on daily basis with all the big IFs?

Secondary market for these chips? LOL



It is not wishful thinking, they are taking orders for batch two now.   This strategy has worked.

Considering that these chips probably cost less then $5 each, a single chip on a USB device as a SHA256 accelerator that could be sold at a profit for $39. 


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February 08, 2013, 05:18:55 AM
 #48

BFL design is how it should have been done there should be no reason to need that many chips

Each design has its merits.  The Avalon design is cheaper do design and has lower startup costs.  The BFL design is much more expensive to start but is cheaper to manufacture and cheaper to run long term.  The real prize goes to who builds first, and in this case it is Avalon.  If they can pump out two or three rounds of these they make a pretty good profit.  There also may be a secondary market for these chips outside of bitcoin.  



What a pile of wishful thinking.

Do you survive life on daily basis with all the big IFs?

Secondary market for these chips? LOL



It is not wishful thinking, they are taking orders for batch two now.   This strategy has worked.

Considering that these chips probably cost less then $5 each, a single chip on a USB device as a SHA256 accelerator that could be sold at a profit for $39. 



Tom would like to thank you for letting him know he's successful.

This community got jerked left and right and still keep smiling to the next scam.
 
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February 08, 2013, 05:26:10 AM
 #49

BFL design is how it should have been done there should be no reason to need that many chips

Each design has its merits.  The Avalon design is cheaper do design and has lower startup costs.  The BFL design is much more expensive to start but is cheaper to manufacture and cheaper to run long term.  The real prize goes to who builds first, and in this case it is Avalon.  If they can pump out two or three rounds of these they make a pretty good profit.  There also may be a secondary market for these chips outside of bitcoin.  



What a pile of wishful thinking.

Do you survive life on daily basis with all the big IFs?

Secondary market for these chips? LOL



It is not wishful thinking, they are taking orders for batch two now.   This strategy has worked.

Considering that these chips probably cost less then $5 each, a single chip on a USB device as a SHA256 accelerator that could be sold at a profit for $39. 



Tom would like to thank you for letting him know he's successful.

This community got jerked left and right and still keep smiling to the next scam.
 


You seem to be talking about something quite different then me, or the subject of this thread.  I am talking about Avalon, a company that has started to ship. 

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February 08, 2013, 06:03:30 AM
 #50

By far the most beautiful ASIC layout comes from ASICminer



It reminds me of the time when every company use their own design to make various computer boards 20-30 years ago, so lively and full of inspiration

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February 08, 2013, 06:20:18 AM
 #51

We found the vias to be inadequate to cool the QFN package during Bitcoin mining.  Under normal operations (e.g. anything not Bitcoin mining, with a toggle rate < 20%, so basically every other application on the planet) vias are more than adequate to dissipate the heat.  With bitcoin mining, the heat generation is much higher and sustained, so the heat starts spreading out into the ground and thermal planes, degrading (and possibly destroying) surrounding components after a long enough time scale.  Granted, our heat density is vastly greater than Avalon's density, so this is probably not nearly the issue it is with BFL's chips, so the cooling with via's are probably the right choice in this application.  

In short, the cooling method on the back side of the board is normal and expected with this type of design.  Adding a HSF to the top of the chip would solve any potential remaining issues if they exist(ed) I would imagine.



It is extremely POOR PCB design practice to attempt to use VIAS for cooling, one only has to take a look DOWN the via to see why......

Plus I fail to see how something only a few micons thick could be expected to 'cool'  a large thermal load, thankfully BFL saw through this particular alchemists fantacy.


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February 08, 2013, 10:04:45 AM
 #52

How you define "should have been done" is arbitrary. Obviously Avalon has done it the right way for them: a design with many small 110nm chips was simpler and allowed them to ship before BFL who is struggling with fewer more complex 65nm chips.

by ship, you meant you received one? If not, STFU already.

You seem upset that BFL did not ship first. That is not a reason for writing an abusive post. Watch your language.
kev7112001
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February 08, 2013, 02:07:55 PM
 #53

Well this is a topic of design so we need to stop talking about shipping who was first or last cause technically no one has one, so there is yet to be a first shipper

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February 08, 2013, 02:12:29 PM
 #54

How you define "should have been done" is arbitrary. Obviously Avalon has done it the right way for them: a design with many small 110nm chips was simpler and allowed them to ship before BFL who is struggling with fewer more complex 65nm chips.

by ship, you meant you received one? If not, STFU already.

You seem upset that BFL did not ship first. That is not a reason for writing an abusive post. Watch your language.

No I'm stating the fact. You need to learn to use the brain between your ears.

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February 08, 2013, 03:18:05 PM
 #55

These are all first generation "prototypes" they are not super tested rugged bulletproof designs. they are all made by hobbyists and fly by night companies. The first gen machines are going to have issues. It happens. BFL has issues with their first FPGA singles overheating and causing problems. However the early adopters get to make a larger profit by taking the risk.
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February 08, 2013, 03:51:12 PM
 #56


THIS:
These are all first generation "prototypes" they are not super tested rugged bulletproof designs. they are all made by hobbyists and fly by night companies. The first gen machines are going to have issues. It happens. BFL has issues with their first FPGA singles overheating and causing problems. However the early adopters get to make a larger profit by taking the risk.

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February 08, 2013, 06:49:51 PM
 #57

A 280mm fan would have made the 4U (178mm) chassis way taller. Not good.
Wrong direction. Like a computer case intake on the side.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835705056

This would not be proper airflow in a rack (and Avalon is designed to be racked).

Strange, I have seen Server racks online with those kinds of configurations. (mostly 120mm fans)

These fans you guys are looking at are crap. Server, rackmounts fans are substantial and HUGE. 120mm, but 2-3 inches thick with crazy high power motors.

I have some 120mm fans that run on 48V, and they're rated to move 200CFM each.  About 10 times what most 120mm fans will do.

When I powered one up loose on a table, it blew with enough force to push itself across the table, and drew blood when it walked right off the table edge and I tried to catch it.

They're loud as hell too, with a real high tone.

I like Avalon's design where the air flows in a straight path in the front, across the fins, and out the back.

I never liked the BFL and bASIC designs where the air is forced to make a right-angle turn.

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February 08, 2013, 07:08:15 PM
 #58

Well this is a topic of design so we need to stop talking about shipping who was first or last cause technically no one has one, so there is yet to be a first shipper

Anyway, talking about who shipped or not is irrelevant to prove my point: Avalon is first to mine. This would not have been possible had they chosen a more complex 90nm or 65nm design, therefore 110nm was the right choice in order to beat BFL on time having devices mining as we speak (prototype or not, shipped or not).

Nemesis: watch your language - this is your 2nd warning. Next time you will find yourself in my ignore list.
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February 08, 2013, 07:22:28 PM
 #59

Well this is a topic of design so we need to stop talking about shipping who was first or last cause technically no one has one, so there is yet to be a first shipper

Anyway, talking about who shipped or not is irrelevant to prove my point: Avalon is first to mine. This would not have been possible had they chosen a more complex 90nm or 65nm design, therefore 110nm was the right choice in order to beat BFL on time having devices mining as we speak (prototype or not, shipped or not).

Nemesis: watch your language - this is your 2nd warning. Next time you will find yourself in my ignore list.

And i said your point is moot if those AVALONs arent not in their customers hands. Having prototypes with unknown bugs means.... they beat BFL?

Its also amusing that you said " shipped or not" ...

Sure, ignore me. Or grown up and admit your point is nonsense.
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February 08, 2013, 10:08:20 PM
 #60

A 280mm fan would have made the 4U (178mm) chassis way taller. Not good.
Wrong direction. Like a computer case intake on the side.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835705056

This would not be proper airflow in a rack (and Avalon is designed to be racked).

Strange, I have seen Server racks online with those kinds of configurations. (mostly 120mm fans)

These fans you guys are looking at are crap. Server, rackmounts fans are substantial and HUGE. 120mm, but 2-3 inches thick with crazy high power motors.

I have some 120mm fans that run on 48V, and they're rated to move 200CFM each.  About 10 times what most 120mm fans will do.

When I powered one up loose on a table, it blew with enough force to push itself across the table, and drew blood when it walked right off the table edge and I tried to catch it.

They're loud as hell too, with a real high tone.

I like Avalon's design where the air flows in a straight path in the front, across the fins, and out the back.

I never liked the BFL and bASIC designs where the air is forced to make a right-angle turn.
They make tiny fans of 30 to 40mm that push about 125cfm each if I recall correctly. My server has about 4 on each side. (8 total at 15-16 thousand RPM)

So at 120mm a high end delta fan should be doing quite a bit. From what I understood the static pressure is more important as it keeps the components nice and cool. The Avalon seem to be pull only configuration. I also wonder why they didn't buy a modular power supply. The top where the powersupply is located has restricted airflow with all those cables. It would be interesting to measure if that is a spot where heat can build up and cause power supply issues.


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