paypal dropped mtgox

[S3052]

done!

[nelisky]

done!

Good for you!

What was it you did again?

[Drifter]

The problem is finding a funding method in which would make the average person want to get involved. While there are many systems that do not allow chargebacks, Paypal was one of the most widely accepted online payment processors for the internet. Mentioning Bitcoins can be exchanged for Paypal is a big plus in luring people in. But when they find out that not only do they need to learn Bitcoin, but they also need to learn how to fund another system (Liberty Reserve, Pecunix, Alertpay, etc) then they start giving up on the proposal.

The private conscientious and Bitcoin enthusiasts will be more than happy to find a new payment method, but the next time Bitcoin is featured in an article and the readers realize the loops they have to jump through, it will turn off the majority.

Something needs to be done, that is obvious. But I don't blame Mt. Gox or others that tried to use CC or Paypal payments. If it wasn't for these funding methods, I don't think we'd see nearly the price escalation that we've seen.

[S3052]

done!

Good for you!

What was it you did again?

I added a ticket requesting to add bitcoin as described above.

hope you're doing it as well

[ribuck]

... the next time Bitcoin is featured in an article and the readers realize the loops they have to jump through, it will turn off the majority.

Maybe we should shift the emphasis away from buying the bitcoins.

Here are two ways of getting BTC that don't involve the use of an exchange, and are fairly intuitive for the newcomer:

1. The deal offered by bitcointo.com. Shop at amazon.com through their affiliate link, and claim back 1% of your purchase as bitcoins.

2. Sell something for BTC at biddingpond.com. The website needs some improvement (e.g. the help pages are useless) but the concept is clear enough.

There is also the BTC 0.05 that newcomers can get for free from the bitcoin faucet, and of course you can generate if you don't mind waiting a month or two for some coins (using the stock client on an "ordinary" home PC).

[Babylon]

... the next time Bitcoin is featured in an article and the readers realize the loops they have to jump through, it will turn off the majority.

Maybe we should shift the emphasis away from buying the bitcoins.

Here are two ways of getting BTC that don't involve the use of an exchange, and are fairly intuitive for the newcomer:

1. The deal offered by bitcointo.com. Shop at amazon.com through their affiliate link, and claim back 1% of your purchase as bitcoins.

2. Sell something for BTC at biddingpond.com. The website needs some improvement (e.g. the help pages are useless) but the concept is clear enough.

There is also the BTC 0.05 that newcomers can get for free from the bitcoin faucet, and of course you can generate if you don't mind waiting a month or two for some coins (using the stock client on an "ordinary" home PC).

Until the bitcoin economy expands dramatically being able to convert bitcoins to and from fiat currencies is kind of vital.

[mtgox]

mcjohn: Like I said in the original post, I'm getting another payment processor. That doesn't happen instantly. I do this in my spare time for free so don't get all uppity.
If you have BTC in there that you bought with paypal this paypal issue doesn't even effect you. You have the same 30 day waiting period you had before paypal froze my account.
If you have USD in there you will be able to withdraw it once either paypal unfreezes my account or I get a new payment processor. Or if you are in a super big hurry just buy BTC on there and withdraw it.

[Anonymous]

MtGox is doing the best he can. Its not his fault scammers are doing chargebacks. Maybe something needs to be done about them instead. Make an example of one of them ie a bounty on finding their dox. Surely there must be a hacker who could do this on here.

If someone thinks they will get away scott free for ripping off bitcoin users they will do it. If there are consequences for doing so they might think twice. I am not against self defence and a deterrent should be in place that stops peoples property and reputation being stolen.

[FreeMoney]

MtGox is doing the best he can. Its not his fault scammers are doing chargebacks. Maybe something needs to be done about them instead. Make an example of one of them ie a bounty on finding their dox. Surely there must be a hacker who could do this on here.

If someone thinks they will get away scott free for ripping off bitcoin users they will do it. If there are consequences for doing so they might think twice. I am not against self defence and a deterrent should be in place that stops peoples property and reputation being stolen.

Better design >>>>>> showing mutilated bodies on the homepage

[nelisky]

I don't usually step into these discussions where I don't have anything of value to add, except to make smart ass remarks and take a shot at sarcasm, but c'mon guys, what's with this call to violence? You begin to sound just like the government: we can't outsmart them or we simply don't bother to try at all, so what else can we do? Oh, right, BOMB THEM.

I'm not here to judge, nor do I have the moral to do it, but just my 2 bitcents here, can we not create a honeypot scenario and scam the scammers? I know there's a test network So here's what I propose:
- Lets come up with a legit looking exchange
- Get some bogus volume going
- Get the money stolen by the scammers on our pockets, along with the credit card details so we can give it back
- Log ips, try to get into their machines, etc

I can code something up, if there's people up for the design part. Also, we need to find a way to keep legit users at bay. Ah, yes, and there's no telling if mtgox and johnyrich didn't do that already... hehe

[kiba]

I don't usually step into these discussions where I don't have anything of value to add, except to make smart ass remarks and take a shot at sarcasm, but c'mon guys, what's with this call to violence? You begin to sound just like the government: we can't outsmart them or we simply don't bother to try at all, so what else can we do? Oh, right, BOMB THEM.

I'm not here to judge, nor do I have the moral to do it, but just my 2 bitcents here, can we not create a honeypot scenario and scam the scammers? I know there's a test network So here's what I propose:
- Lets come up with a legit looking exchange
- Get some bogus volume going
- Get the money stolen by the scammers on our pockets, along with the credit card details so we can give it back
- Log ips, try to get into their machines, etc

I can code something up, if there's people up for the design part. Also, we need to find a way to keep legit users at bay. Ah, yes, and there's no telling if mtgox and johnyrich didn't do that already... hehe

Waste of time and money. We need a reputation system of some kind to keep the scammers at bay.

[Anonymous]

MtGox is doing the best he can. Its not his fault scammers are doing chargebacks. Maybe something needs to be done about them instead. Make an example of one of them ie a bounty on finding their dox. Surely there must be a hacker who could do this on here.

If someone thinks they will get away scott free for ripping off bitcoin users they will do it. If there are consequences for doing so they might think twice. I am not against self defence and a deterrent should be in place that stops peoples property and reputation being stolen.

Better design >>>>>> showing mutilated bodies on the homepage

I dont think that would do anything  

In a free market system these issues need to be dealt with. In no way is that a call for violence.

[Anonymous]

I don't usually step into these discussions where I don't have anything of value to add, except to make smart ass remarks and take a shot at sarcasm, but c'mon guys, what's with this call to violence? You begin to sound just like the government: we can't outsmart them or we simply don't bother to try at all, so what else can we do? Oh, right, BOMB THEM.

I'm not here to judge, nor do I have the moral to do it, but just my 2 bitcents here, can we not create a honeypot scenario and scam the scammers? I know there's a test network So here's what I propose:
- Lets come up with a legit looking exchange
- Get some bogus volume going
- Get the money stolen by the scammers on our pockets, along with the credit card details so we can give it back
- Log ips, try to get into their machines, etc

I can code something up, if there's people up for the design part. Also, we need to find a way to keep legit users at bay. Ah, yes, and there's no telling if mtgox and johnyrich didn't do that already... hehe

Its not about violence its about people gaming the system when they see a weakness. Lets not forget they started this by taking property that isnt theirs. We just have to come up with a way to make it harder to do so.

[FreeMoney]

MtGox is doing the best he can. Its not his fault scammers are doing chargebacks. Maybe something needs to be done about them instead. Make an example of one of them ie a bounty on finding their dox. Surely there must be a hacker who could do this on here.

If someone thinks they will get away scott free for ripping off bitcoin users they will do it. If there are consequences for doing so they might think twice. I am not against self defence and a deterrent should be in place that stops peoples property and reputation being stolen.

Better design >>>>>> showing mutilated bodies on the homepage

I dont think that would do anything  

In a free market system these issues need to be dealt with. In no way is that a call for violence.

To be clear. I'm saying to design exchanges in some better way that I haven't thought of instead of violence.

[Timo Y]

Its not about violence its about people gaming the system when they see a weakness. Lets not forget they started this by taking property that isnt theirs. We just have to come up with a way to make it harder to do so.

In a way it's a good thing that scammers are attacking this early because it's weeding out the weaknesses in the system.

[Anonymous]

Its not about violence its about people gaming the system when they see a weakness. Lets not forget they started this by taking property that isnt theirs. We just have to come up with a way to make it harder to do so.

In a way it's a good thing that scammers are attacking this early because it's weeding out the weaknesses in the system.

Yes that's a good point.

[MoonShadow]

Its not about violence its about people gaming the system when they see a weakness. Lets not forget they started this by taking property that isnt theirs. We just have to come up with a way to make it harder to do so.

In a way it's a good thing that scammers are attacking this early because it's weeding out the weaknesses in the system.

Yes, but this attack didn't highlight a weakness in Bitcoin, it highlights a weakness in the many credit/identity based systems that the markets must trade into.  This is exactly the kind of issues that Bitcoin attempts to solve, and does so quite well within itself.  What we need is local markets, actual people within our own cities that we can go to and trade fiat cash for Bitcoin in person.  When that day comes, then the system is mature.

[Babylon]

Its not about violence its about people gaming the system when they see a weakness. Lets not forget they started this by taking property that isnt theirs. We just have to come up with a way to make it harder to do so.

In a way it's a good thing that scammers are attacking this early because it's weeding out the weaknesses in the system.

Yes, but this attack didn't highlight a weakness in Bitcoin, it highlights a weakness in the many credit/identity based systems that the markets must trade into.  This is exactly the kind of issues that Bitcoin attempts to solve, and does so quite well within itself.  What we need is local markets, actual people within our own cities that we can go to and trade fiat cash for Bitcoin in person.  When that day comes, then the system is mature.

Difficulty in converting to/from fiat is a weakness. 

Also, people manage to use paypal quite successfully for a wide variety of business uses, including virtual services like subscription payments to World of Warcraft. Yes, paypal is a flawed system that is too easy to chargeback, there's nothing else that is as widespread and although interfacing between bitcoin and paypal is not required, it is extremely helpful.

Better ways to prevent scamming really would make a difference.

[S3052]

Every day of not being able to use MtGox to buy new bitcoins is having negative effects

* not being able to grow the BITCOIN economy
* not being able to recruit new BITCOIN USERS
* not being able to buy more BITCOINS (as the price is further rising. Last price is above 10 cents again)

[jgarzik]

Paypal works just fine for normal businesses with on-going customer-business relationships.  An established business does deal with the occasional chargeback, but that's just part of the system.  The law (here in the US) strongly incentivizes sellers to work hard to please the buyer, because chargeback capability is required by law to protect the consumer.  For the most part, the system works as expected.

When it comes to cash, however, the system clearly breaks down.  Presumably that's why ATM withdrawals from credit cards carry a higher interest rate, and often, more security protections (PIN requirement, etc.).

We need to figure out how to access the "ATM withdrawal" portion of a credit card, at the exchanges.