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Author Topic: Kano vs Bitsyncom  (Read 15341 times)
BitSyncom (OP)
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February 08, 2013, 09:11:59 PM
 #1

Feb-2

Hey Josh,

you got any update on where your guys are at?

I'm certainly not someone to promote your guys unsubstantiated claims coz
of your crap history (even with the ASIC), and you know full well I've never been
a fan of BFL, but the Avalon people are really pissing me off, Tom's gone down
the drain, and I would certainly be happy to be able to run a BFL ASIC on an rpi
and show it leaving Avalon's shit in the dust.

...
...

So ... when is anything happening at BFL?

P.S. if anything I've said on the forum lately has pissed your guys off - oh well,
damn shame Smiley

You are pissed off because we haven't got around to release source code yet or the fact we did not giving you a free unit?

Korbman
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February 08, 2013, 09:19:24 PM
 #2

You are pissed off because we haven't got around to release source code yet or the fact we did not giving you a free unit?

Ha, this made me laugh.

He rises from the dead to post in the BFL thread while ignoring all the questions in the Avalon threads. Good choices BitSyncom Wink

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February 08, 2013, 09:29:09 PM
 #3

Feb-2

Hey Josh,

you got any update on where your guys are at?

I'm certainly not someone to promote your guys unsubstantiated claims coz
of your crap history (even with the ASIC), and you know full well I've never been
a fan of BFL, but the Avalon people are really pissing me off, Tom's gone down
the drain, and I would certainly be happy to be able to run a BFL ASIC on an rpi
and show it leaving Avalon's shit in the dust.

...
...

So ... when is anything happening at BFL?

P.S. if anything I've said on the forum lately has pissed your guys off - oh well,
damn shame Smiley

You are pissed off because we haven't got around to release source code yet or the fact we did not giving you a free unit?
Exactly.

Thumb through Kano's posts and anyone can get the picture.
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February 08, 2013, 09:29:55 PM
 #4

Feb-2

Hey Josh,

you got any update on where your guys are at?

I'm certainly not someone to promote your guys unsubstantiated claims coz
of your crap history (even with the ASIC), and you know full well I've never been
a fan of BFL, but the Avalon people are really pissing me off, Tom's gone down
the drain, and I would certainly be happy to be able to run a BFL ASIC on an rpi
and show it leaving Avalon's shit in the dust.

...
...

So ... when is anything happening at BFL?

P.S. if anything I've said on the forum lately has pissed your guys off - oh well,
damn shame Smiley

You are pissed off because we haven't got around to release source code yet or the fact we did not giving you a free unit?
I'd be pissed off at both.
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February 08, 2013, 10:32:14 PM
 #5

You are pissed off because we haven't got around to release source code yet or the fact we did not giving you a free unit?

Ha, this made me laugh.

He rises from the dead to post in the BFL thread while ignoring all the questions in the Avalon threads. Good choices BitSyncom Wink

Me too.

Welcome to Deadwood!!!

When I think of Avalon it reminds me of dinner time at home when I was a kid, every night Mama made two dinners for the family...  they were, Take it or Leave it!

CS just doesn't appear to be a priority for them and I guess when demand exceeds supply by several multiples you can really do whatever the hell you want LOL.  IMO its probably not the best long term business model but meh maybe the western idea of CS is outdated and I'm just old and crazy and this is the wave of the future!

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February 08, 2013, 10:49:53 PM
Last edit: February 08, 2013, 11:14:29 PM by kano
 #6

Feb-2

Hey Josh,

you got any update on where your guys are at?

I'm certainly not someone to promote your guys unsubstantiated claims coz
of your crap history (even with the ASIC), and you know full well I've never been
a fan of BFL, but the Avalon people are really pissing me off, Tom's gone down
the drain, and I would certainly be happy to be able to run a BFL ASIC on an rpi
and show it leaving Avalon's shit in the dust.

...
...

So ... when is anything happening at BFL?

P.S. if anything I've said on the forum lately has pissed your guys off - oh well,
damn shame Smiley

You are pissed off because we haven't got around to release source code yet or the fact we did not giving you a free unit?
Yeah why am I not surprised you would make that statement.
Based on what grounds have you made that bullshit statement?
Here, is this easy enough to understand ... I DONT WANT ONE.

I do not wish to support Avalon and their underhanded "OpenSource" tactics.
I already had this discussion in the Avalon forum last year with BitSyncom where I clearly stated that if you guys develop the code and we don't have the hardware - then you will be the ones to support the code.
Any idiot who can't follow the meaning of that (PuertoLibre) can go jump for all I care.

I'm pissed at the fact that Avalon pretend to be all Open Source and represent yourself that way to the community (and on your web site) but the reality is you haven't even released the code yet - that you said you would do.
One of your early responses to that was also something that could easily turn into a violation of the code license - as I pointed out before and it also explains clearly at those links I posted recently.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=141300.msg1506413#msg1506413

The early response was:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137534.msg1470005#msg1470005
...
Good call, to your answer your question: the source code will be uploaded to github soon as we remove a bunch of debug related stuff.
So it's simple to take this comment as bullshit or ignorance about the GPL3 license - you choose which one it is.
Though ignorance wont get you far since I posted links that clearly explains the GPL issues for those who don't know anything about that ...
So ... does that put the Avalon OpenSource friendly people under the heading of "Ignorant about the GPL License"? Seriously?

Yes you have so far avoided breaking the license by not even releasing the code coz apparently no one has rightfully requested it ... or there are only 2 Avalons out and for some unknown reason those who got them are not interested in asking for it, or have got it and are not interested in releasing the source code themselves.

BFL have never stated that they are all OpenSource - they have proprietary items in their system that they themselves state are proprietary.
However, you can already get access to the cgminer source code for the Nexus7 ... it's publicly available in github ... because it is based on a publicly available OpenSource GPL piece of software ... called cgminer ... oddly that's the same as the Avalon miner ... but which of the 2 companies is pissing around hiding the code?

So far Avalon said they reached their ship date 3 weeks ago (which means they had the source code then, that is necessary to meet the license requirements for anyone who got an Avalon) but still no sign of the code.

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Nemesis
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February 08, 2013, 10:53:54 PM
 #7

Feb-2

Hey Josh,

you got any update on where your guys are at?

I'm certainly not someone to promote your guys unsubstantiated claims coz
of your crap history (even with the ASIC), and you know full well I've never been
a fan of BFL, but the Avalon people are really pissing me off, Tom's gone down
the drain, and I would certainly be happy to be able to run a BFL ASIC on an rpi
and show it leaving Avalon's shit in the dust.

...
...

So ... when is anything happening at BFL?

P.S. if anything I've said on the forum lately has pissed your guys off - oh well,
damn shame Smiley

You are pissed off because we haven't got around to release source code yet or the fact we did not giving you a free unit?

You've proved why chinese are scums in this industry. You violated GPL license yet still have no shame as if you've accomplished something.
Go back to "shipping" your precious device.

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February 08, 2013, 11:28:05 PM
 #8

You are pissed off because we haven't got around to release source code yet

Your arrogance is fucking astounding. You're practically taking a steaming shit on the GPL by holding back the source.

How about you spend less time trolling and more time releasing the fucking source code?
BitSyncom (OP)
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February 08, 2013, 11:42:27 PM
 #9

Yeah why am I not surprised you would make that statement.
Based on what grounds have you made that bullshit statement?
Here, is this easy enough to understand ... I DONT WANT ONE.

I do not wish to support Avalon and their underhanded "OpenSource" tactics.
I already had this discussion in the Avalon forum last year with BitSyncom where I clearly stated that if you guys develop the code and we don't have the hardware - then you will be the ones to support the code.
Any idiot who can't follow the meaning of that (PuertoLibre) can go jump for all I care.

I'm pissed at the fact that Avalon pretend to be all Open Source and represent yourself that way to the community (and on your web site) but the reality is you haven't even released the code yet - that you said you would do.
One of your early responses to that was also something that could easily turn into a violation of the code license - as I pointed out before and it also explains clearly at those links I posted recently.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=141300.msg1506413#msg1506413

The early response was:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137534.msg1470005#msg1470005
...
Good call, to your answer your question: the source code will be uploaded to github soon as we remove a bunch of debug related stuff.
So it's simple to take this comment as bullshit or ignorance about the GPL3 license - you choose which one it is.
Though ignorance wont get you far since I posted links that clearly explains the GPL issues for those who don't know anything about that ...
So ... does that put the Avalon OpenSource friendly people under the heading of "Ignorant about the GPL License"? Seriously?

Yes you have so far avoided breaking the license by not even releasing the code coz apparently no one has rightfully requested it ... or there are only 2 Avalons out and for some unknown reason those who got them are not interested in asking for it, or have got it and are not interested in releasing the source code themselves.

BFL have never stated that they are all OpenSource - they have proprietary items in their system that they themselves state are proprietary.
However, you can already get access to the cgminer source code for the Nexus7 ... it's publicly available in github ... because it is based on a publicly available OpenSource GPL piece of software ... called cgminer ... oddly that's the same as the Avalon miner ... but which of the 2 companies is pissing around hiding the code?

So far Avalon said they reached their ship date 3 weeks ago (which means they had the source code then, that is necessary to meet the license requirements for anyone who got an Avalon) but still no sign of the code.

Hence the low priority, if you wish to comment on GPL3 compliance, all we actually have to do it release source within 30 days as per stated on GPL3.

Also let me explain this "debug related" stuff for a second, this is not cgminer related at all, the repo also contains the FPGA controller and various other things we don't wish to release without proper explanation and agreements in the future e.g. overclocking parameters.

If anything though, I'll apologize for tardiness of the situation. You would've also simply asked for an ETA and I would've provided one.

Anyhow:
Quote
the source code release is set for this weekend on our project timeline at the moment.


also, open source =/= support.

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February 08, 2013, 11:43:50 PM
 #10

the source code release is set for this weekend on our project timeline at the moment.

All of it, or just the first two lines?
kano
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February 09, 2013, 12:38:12 AM
 #11

...
also, open source =/= support.

Exactly ... but your words also exactly were:

...
You are pissed off because we haven't got around to release source code yet or the fact we did not giving you a free unit?
So you consider sending someone hardware and they having to do software code and general support for who knows how long? A year? as free

I've no fucking idea what part of NewYork you live in and what people there think, but I do wonder what things you require that you consider people should do for you that you consider worth nothing.

I also will note that you got Xiangfu to do the driver software development but did NOT give him an Avalon.
I wonder if he got ripped off with what you paid him for that ...
An Avalon is only $1300 retail ...

Though I will point out for others, that you did NOT get the cgminer source for free.
It came with the GPL license requirements.

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BitSyncom (OP)
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February 09, 2013, 01:10:46 AM
 #12

...
also, open source =/= support.

Exactly ... but your words also exactly were:

...
You are pissed off because we haven't got around to release source code yet or the fact we did not giving you a free unit?
So you consider sending someone hardware and they having to do software code and general support for who knows how long? A year? as free

I've no fucking idea what part of NewYork you live in and what people there think, but I do wonder what things you require that you consider people should do for you that you consider worth nothing.

I also will note that you got Xiangfu to do the driver software development but did NOT give him an Avalon.
I wonder if he got ripped off with what you paid him for that ...
An Avalon is only $1300 retail ...

Though I will point out for others, that you did NOT get the cgminer source for free.
It came with the GPL license requirements.

Quote
I also will note that you got Xiangfu to do the driver software development but did NOT give him an Avalon.
Huh So you are making up things now?

Quote
I've no fucking idea what part of NewYork you live in and what people there think, but I do wonder what things you require that you consider people should do for you that you consider worth nothing.

and I have no idea where you got the impression we are asking you to do software code and general support for Avalon. As with all open source things, those who wish to support it can do so. This is not something we are entitled to have, nor something you are required to do.

It's your choice to support and it is Avalon's choice to decide who gets free units and other perks.

If you had purchased this unit much like many other developers of bitcoin, and/or bitcoin related projects I may have given discounts, priority shipping and other various bonus which you will no doubt have qualified for.

But if you are going to come into my thread a year ago stating on how every other ASIC manufacture has been given developers free units so they may support their hardware and if I and Avalon choose not to do this you will not provide support then I'll reject you on sheer principle fucking level.

Good day.

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February 09, 2013, 01:50:37 AM
 #13

...
also, open source =/= support.

Exactly ... but your words also exactly were:

...
You are pissed off because we haven't got around to release source code yet or the fact we did not giving you a free unit?
So you consider sending someone hardware and they having to do software code and general support for who knows how long? A year? as free

I've no fucking idea what part of NewYork you live in and what people there think, but I do wonder what things you require that you consider people should do for you that you consider worth nothing.

I also will note that you got Xiangfu to do the driver software development but did NOT give him an Avalon.
I wonder if he got ripped off with what you paid him for that ...
An Avalon is only $1300 retail ...

Though I will point out for others, that you did NOT get the cgminer source for free.
It came with the GPL license requirements.

Quote
I also will note that you got Xiangfu to do the driver software development but did NOT give him an Avalon.
Huh So you are making up things now?
No you are lying.
Code:
Jan 31 UTC+11
22:31 < xiangfu> conman: thanks to the cgminer. and I even don't have one. :)

Quote
Quote
I've no fucking idea what part of NewYork you live in and what people there think, but I do wonder what things you require that you consider people should do for you that you consider worth nothing.

and I have no idea where you got the impression we are asking you to do software code and general support for Avalon. As with all open source things, those who wish to support it can do so. This is not something we are entitled to have, nor something you are required to do.

It's your choice to support and it is Avalon's choice to decide who gets free units and other perks.

If you had purchased this unit much like many other developers of bitcoin, and/or bitcoin related projects I may have given discounts, priority shipping and other various bonus which you will no doubt have qualified for.
... and I have no idea where I have EVER said ANYWHERE on this forum what you are implying.
You are making up shit to try and cover yourself. Fuck off.

I have never expected to receive ANY hardware from anyone for free.
I've only expected that if someone did send me hardware that they would be wanting me to support it.
AS I ALREADY DID WITH THE ICARUS

Your trying to turn this into crap that it isn't - what are you hiding?

Yes I do understand your choice to ignore the software developers of the code you've used.
I knew that last year ... I was told it on 31-Dec

Quote
But if you are going to come into my thread a year ago stating on how every other ASIC manufacture has been given developers free units so they may support their hardware and if I and Avalon choose not to do this you will not provide support then I'll reject you on sheer principle fucking level.

Good day.
Good for you - that's your principle.
Though I'd like to see the quote you are implying ... ... ... ...

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BitSyncom (OP)
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February 09, 2013, 02:53:42 AM
 #14

Amazing, and I thought my English needs improvement. Don't even get me started on how you imply every other sentence.

So you consider sending someone hardware and they having to do software code and general support for who knows how long? A year? as free

I've no fucking idea what part of New York you live in and what people there think, but I do wonder what things you require that you consider people should do for you that you consider worth nothing.

Here you imply:
- 1. Assuming I, who did not sent you a unit thinks open source support is free,
- 2. Assumed more by providing support you justify for hardware, thus should receive one.
- 3. drag New York into this for no fucking reason, is the bold parts even English? That I'm not sure, but yet again, another assumption.


I also will note that you got Xiangfu to do the driver software development but did NOT give him an Avalon.
I wonder if he got ripped off with what you paid him for that ...
An Avalon is only $1300 retail ...

Here's what you imply:
1. Assuming I did not give Xiangfu a unit, every Avalon developer is entitled to a special unit with gold-plated PCB and signed unit, but we've been so busy we didn't even celebrate our chip success yet, which is now more than a month ago.
Quote
I wonder if he got ripped off with what you paid him for that ...
2. What the fuck are you trying to imply here scum? For your information, xiangfu named his own price.
3. Why is the price of the unit a factor here?

Though I will point out for others, that you did NOT get the cgminer source for free.
It came with the GPL license requirements.

When did I mention I got this for free? more imply please.
When did I violate GPL license requirement? Oh wait, as you said, I did not.


Quote
But if you are going to come into my thread a year ago stating on how every other ASIC manufacture has been given developers free units so they may support their hardware and if I and Avalon choose not to do this you will not provide support then I'll reject you on sheer principle fucking level.

Good day.
Good for you - that's your principle.
Though I'd like to see the quote you are implying ... ... ... ...

Here you go: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=120184.msg1317892#msg1317892



Let's say I was wrong and you didn't say
Quote
"If you want support then you must provide me hardware."
because you assumed I was going to ask you to provide support.


THEN what's the problem you have with Avalon that "piss you off" aside from the fact we are slow to provide source code, but is still within the definition of GPLv3?

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February 09, 2013, 03:29:38 AM
 #15

BitSyncom,
Maybe you should stop chatting with one, who not even your customer and spend little more time for your real customers? We haven't heard anything about batch #1 shipping since Jan 29(?), and anything about batch #2 from Feb 2. Please take some time, and update status for your customers pleasure.
Thank you.

PS: Even more pleasure for you customers would be an answers at your support helpdesk.
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February 09, 2013, 04:33:02 AM
 #16

Amazing, and I thought my English needs improvement. Don't even get me started on how you imply every other sentence.

So you consider sending someone hardware and they having to do software code and general support for who knows how long? A year? as free

I've no fucking idea what part of New York you live in and what people there think, but I do wonder what things you require that you consider people should do for you that you consider worth nothing.

Here you imply:
- 1. Assuming I, who did not sent you a unit thinks open source support is free,
Seems pretty obvious from this statement:
...
You are pissed off because we haven't got around to release source code yet or the fact we did not giving you a free unit?
What's next - you'll say you never said that?

Quote
- 2. Assumed more by providing support you justify for hardware, thus should receive one.
Learning to read are we?
I've already clearly stated I don't want an Avalon.
Was that too hard to understand?

Quote
- 3. drag New York into this for no fucking reason, is the bold parts even English? That I'm not sure, but yet again, another assumption.
Well since that is where you are from, I was wondering if this assumption, that people who might provide support should do it for free, was some sort of local custom?

Quote
I also will note that you got Xiangfu to do the driver software development but did NOT give him an Avalon.
I wonder if he got ripped off with what you paid him for that ...
An Avalon is only $1300 retail ...

Here's what you imply:
1. Assuming I did not give Xiangfu a unit, every Avalon developer is entitled to a special unit with gold-plated PCB and signed unit, but we've been so busy we didn't even celebrate our chip success yet, which is now more than a month ago.
No actually it's quite simple, had you given him a unit, the current well known problems and bugs with the Avalon could have be resolved already.

But no doubt supporting your customers is something you don't give a shit about ... as per the posts above mine ...

Quote
Quote
I wonder if he got ripped off with what you paid him for that ...
2. What the fuck are you trying to imply here scum? For your information, xiangfu named his own price.
3. Why is the price of the unit a factor here?
I wonder if he asked for an Avalon and was rejected? Cheesy

Quote
Though I will point out for others, that you did NOT get the cgminer source for free.
It came with the GPL license requirements.

When did I mention I got this for free? more imply please.
When did I violate GPL license requirement? Oh wait, as you said, I did not.
Try again ... read it ... don't skip words ... not even the big ones ... "others"

Quote

Quote
But if you are going to come into my thread a year ago stating on how every other ASIC manufacture has been given developers free units so they may support their hardware and if I and Avalon choose not to do this you will not provide support then I'll reject you on sheer principle fucking level.

Good day.
Good for you - that's your principle.
Though I'd like to see the quote you are implying ... ... ... ...

Here you go: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=120184.msg1317892#msg1317892



Let's say I was wrong and you didn't say
Quote
"If you want support then you must provide me hardware."
because you assumed I was going to ask you to provide support.
At least learn how to quote retard.
Go read that link again ... it says:
Quote
Thirdly, hardware is required for proper support.
Yes I know you don't want your Avalon users to get proper support.
That's been clear already.
But when you quote someone ... don't edit it first ... sheesh what lies are you going to spread next?

Well there was the statement about building 12 Avalons a day since 20-Jan.
I wonder if that is true?
You should have built 180 by now if you only worked on week days.
That's more than half the first batch already.
Hopefully your customers will get them soon ..............

Quote
THEN what's the problem you have with Avalon that "piss you off" aside from the fact we are slow to provide source code, but is still within the definition of GPLv3?

The problem I have with Avalon that "piss me off" is that your've used the source code to make your product work and still not yet released the source code and on top of that used an excuse that directly implies a violation of the source code license.
A group of people who claim how "Open Source" they are and yet you made such a stupid comment about editing the code before releasing it.
I don't give a shit about what other code you have that you guys wrote - I'm of course only referring to cgminer.
Your supposed to be smart, yet I have to explain that to you? Wow - I've well over estimated you.

So: You already have the code - or Jeff and the Foundation are lying?
I think it's pretty obvious which is correct: you have the code and have had it for weeks.
Your hiding it ... for who knows what reason ...

... and lastly ...
Are you smart enough to spot something else you are doing?
You're (with my help) dragging the Avalon name through the dirt in the BFL thread.
Yeah smart move that one Tongue

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February 09, 2013, 06:07:33 AM
 #17

orders are not opened while we solve the ordering issues existing previously so no orders are opened at the moment.



After trying to ream Kano a new asshole, the able is all that was offered up to Avalon's clients. Totally amazing!
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February 09, 2013, 06:19:18 AM
 #18

sigh, you know what, I've lost faith in you kano. I'll leave you with some parting notes for historical purposes.

- xiangfu can get access to units anytime he wishes, physically; there is a unit for him once various mess due to CNY blows over; the real cause is lack of time, all your other "guesses" are incorrect. fact: none of the people on the Avalon team have their own units yet.
- I should have known better when you nitpicked me on the "patch" vs "pull request" issue before. The removal of debugging information is still my answer, but this is not cgminer related, it is however still the reason why we can't just push the repo to a public git somewhere. If you choose to interpret this as violation of license that's up to you.

I think next time in the future like with batch two, I will only announce things at their worst possible outcome, so people won't complain as much and there's nothing to troll. e.g.

- batch #1 will finish shipping by end of Feb, 2013 as originally stated when this project first started back in September.
- source code will release 30 days to comply to an infringement notice from a copyright holder.
- not announce anything regarding open sourcing and show up one day with a github url.
- and the list goes on.

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February 09, 2013, 06:33:50 AM
 #19

fact: none of the people on the Avalon team have their own units yet.


 Shocked Shocked

kano
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February 09, 2013, 06:35:42 AM
 #20

sigh, you know what, I've lost faith in you kano. I'll leave you with some parting notes for historical purposes.

- xiangfu can get access to units anytime he wishes, physically; there is a unit for him once various mess due to CNY blows over; the real cause is lack of time, all your other "guesses" are incorrect. fact: none of the people on the Avalon team have their own units yet.
- I should have known better when you nitpicked me on the "patch" vs "pull request" issue before. The removal of debugging information is still my answer, but this is not cgminer related, it is however still the reason why we can't just push the repo to a public git somewhere. If you choose to interpret this as violation of license that's up to you.

I think next time in the future like with batch two, I will only announce things at their worst possible outcome, so people won't complain as much and there's nothing to troll. e.g.

- batch #1 will finish shipping by end of Feb, 2013 as originally stated when this project first started back in September.
- source code will release 30 days to comply to an infringement notice from a copyright holder.
- not announce anything regarding open sourcing and show up one day with a github url.
- and the list goes on.
Yeah I get it.
Being open (and open source) and the best of the ASIC producers was too much for you.
As soon as something changed that made that difficult, your ideals were ... something else all together.
You've sunk to the level of hiding information and not supporting your customers and not giving them updates.

As for debugging, ah OK, 182 Avalons contain this debugging that's somehow problematic.
Oops ...

Anyone considering buying an Avalon should take this into consideration:
Quote
I think next time in the future like with batch two, I will only announce things at their worst possible outcome ...

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