Kano vs Bitsyncom

[PuertoLibre]

A story of a whimsical relationship between one ASIC manufacturer and an unrequited (left wanting) software developer.

<Key scene in the public washroom (Asia style)>:

Kano: You know, I would love to code for Avalon.
Yifu: I bet you would. <Eyeball Kano for 5 seconds.>
Kano: You know, if I find an Avalon unit under my towel in the dressing room I just might keep and maintain code for it.
Yifu: <Scrubs his own back ignoring him.> I think we've got it covered.
Kano: You can scrub my back, I'll scrub yours?
<Kano waits for 10 minutes...nothing happens.>

<Yifu gets up afterwards and walks to the dressing room.>

<Key Kano throwing a hissy fit.>: I can't believe you won't send me an Avalon! How dare you?! ^&*^&*(

Yifu: Sorry, but we already have someone we paid for the software side of things. I simply do not need your "help" at this time.

Kano: Damn you! Do you expect me to work for freee?! I scratch you back, you scratch mine! Don't you understand you New Yorker!?

Yifu: WTF? Man, I don't need your help.

Kano: WTH? Didn't you just see me try to pressure you into leaving an Avalon under the towel?

Yifu: Look, if we need contracted labor we can pay for it. Right now, Xianfu (sorry I forgot his name) already has us covered for development.

Kano: You don't understand, I will keep developing software for you as long as you give me hardware! WTF don't you understand? Where is your source code?

Yifu: Look we will release it soon. Thats all.

Kano: NO you WON'T. I know you WON"T. READ the GPLv3 mutha...^&*^&*! You don't have a choice, give it to me NOW.

Kano: I know what going on here; You paid this xianfu in Avalons didn't you?!

Yifu: Look sir, don't speculate you don't know our contractual arrangements.

Yifu: Further, we will release it soon enough.

Kano: That is why you (Avalon) are such washed up has beens! You don't understand that if you just put the damn Avalon's under my Towel like I asked you to, you would be covered. Maybe...if I feel like it.

Kano: You guys suck!

Yifu: Look, we can give out units to those we think would appreciate it. So ^&*^ off.

-------------------
<Key scene of the top of a building and Kano wielding a rusty sword high in the sky. Ranting and raving>

Kano: I never asked outright for an Avalon. And you know what? I don't want one! I never asked for one. I WOULD HAVE...POSSIBLY, if I felt like it....provided labor for the price of an Avalon.

Kano: No obligations though!

------------------


Moral of the story, if you want to engage in programming AND be COMPENSATED. Sign a contract. Don't posture and pester someone. Then get angry and enrage in revisionist forum history to make yourself look better.

You don't understand what the open source community contributions are about. You want compensation. Whether subtle or blatant. Find donors, collect some bitcoins. Be nice to Yifu and get it paid off.

Or sign a contract where he and you agree on an expected level of service.

Before you say that not how it is, keep in mind the machine you wanted sent to you (for free) and for development purposes is also compensating you every day with Bitcoins on an ongoing basis.

Pay the man, or sign a contract for a specific guarantee, or at least be nice enough to let him bribe you. If it were possible at this stage.

[kano]

...
Moral of the story, if you want to engage in programming AND be COMPENSATED. Sign a contract. Don't posture and pester someone. Then get angry and enrage in revisionist forum history to make yourself look better.

You don't understand what the open source community contributions are about. You want compensation. Whether subtle or blatant. Find donors, collect some bitcoins. Be nice to Yifu and get it paid off.

Or sign a contract where he and you agree on an expected level of service.

Before you say that not how it is, keep in mind the machine you wanted sent to you (for free) and for development purposes is also compensating you every day with Bitcoins on an ongoing basis.

Pay the man, or sign a contract for a specific guarantee, or at least be nice enough to let him bribe you. If it were possible at this stage.

Moral of the story, don't quote any posts anywhere on the forum and you can then pretend anything you say is true and make up anything you like.

Go read that link and what I said there and after it, instead of making up shit and proving your an idiot.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=120184.msg1317892#msg1317892

[bce]

Could it be this simple?

Kano respects cgminer, and is proud of his role in forwarding the development of cgminer.
A modified cgminer is used in Jeff Garzik's Avalon with a closed-source device.
Jeff Garzik's Avalon crashes once per day and needs to be restarted.  Memory leak? who knows.


Could it be that Kano simply has respect for how he feels cgminer should be, and Avalon should have tested before shipping?

Just a thought, but does that sound about right?


Kano,
I hope your trip to the US to visit BFL as the SC line begins assembly and shipping later this month is a good one!
Thanks for the the improvements that you have made to cgminer

[PuertoLibre]

...
Moral of the story, if you want to engage in programming AND be COMPENSATED. Sign a contract. Don't posture and pester someone. Then get angry and enrage in revisionist forum history to make yourself look better.

You don't understand what the open source community contributions are about. You want compensation. Whether subtle or blatant. Find donors, collect some bitcoins. Be nice to Yifu and get it paid off.

Or sign a contract where he and you agree on an expected level of service.

Before you say that not how it is, keep in mind the machine you wanted sent to you (for free) and for development purposes is also compensating you every day with Bitcoins on an ongoing basis.

Pay the man, or sign a contract for a specific guarantee, or at least be nice enough to let him bribe you. If it were possible at this stage.

Moral of the story, don't quote any posts anywhere on the forum and you can then pretend anything you say is true and make up anything you like.

Go read that link and what I said there and after it, instead of making up shit and proving your an idiot.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=120184.msg1317892#msg1317892

What do I look like, a search engine?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=36044;sa=showPosts

There, anyone can go read it themselves. For best context, they should look through the threads and read each post with responses and replies.

[PuertoLibre]

Could it be this simple?

Kano respects cgminer, and is proud of his role in forwarding the development of cgminer.
A modified cgminer is used in Jeff Garzik's Avalon with a closed-source device.
Jeff Garzik's Avalon crashes once per day and needs to be restarted.  Memory leak? who knows.


Could it be that Kano simply has respect for how he feels cgminer should be, and Avalon should have tested before shipping?

Just a thought, but does that sound about right?

Yet, it doesn't actually flow with what Kano himself says.

He literally repeats what he has said already in the past.

Kano is a great programmer, I have little doubt on that. But he wants someone to butter his bread. When that someone says no, he goes into the samurai toting ninja you see above.

The last thing he is currently hiding behind is the release of the source code. Beyond that his attitude will stay much the same.

What do you think he would say of BFL if they sent him home without hardware? Or worse, asked him to actually pay for it?

Edit: The only thing I see is that Kano wants something and he approached it in all the wrong ways. Things didn't go well. bASIC folded. Avalon said No, BFL said yes.

He can hide behind "the source code has not been released" issue for a while longer. When it is released, his opinion won't change will it? I wonder why?

[bce]

Could it be this simple?

Kano respects cgminer, and is proud of his role in forwarding the development of cgminer.
A modified cgminer is used in Jeff Garzik's Avalon with a closed-source device.
Jeff Garzik's Avalon crashes once per day and needs to be restarted.  Memory leak? who knows.


Could it be that Kano simply has respect for how he feels cgminer should be, and Avalon should have tested before shipping?

Just a thought, but does that sound about right?

Yet, it doesn't actually flow with what Kano himself says.

He literally repeats what he has said already in the past.

Kano is a great programmer, I have little doubt on that. But he wants someone to butter his bread. When that someone says no, he goes into the samurai toting ninja you see above.

The last thing he is currently hiding behind is the release of the source code. Beyond that his attitude will stay much the same.

What do you think he would say of BFL if they sent him home without hardware? Or worse, asked him to actually pay for it?

Edit: The only thing I see is that Kano wants something and he approached it in all the wrong ways. Things didn't go well. bASIC folded. Avalon said No, BFL said yes.

He can hide behind "the source code has not been released" issue for a while longer. When it is released, his opinion won't change will it? I wonder why?

Well, again -

Avalon runs well, then restarts every 24 hours.   That would frustrate the hell out of me, as it'd be so easy for me to help out if I were Kano.  I am not Kano, but I could imagine.

We elected Kano as one of the representatives to be invited by BFL to visit its facility, due to his ability to discern a scam and to possibly test the SC line of hardware himself.  At this point, BFL is obviously not a scam.

By the way, I notice that Kano's avatar has changed.  Is that why you called him "the samurai toting ninja?"   I also notice that your avatar has changed to one that does not include the words "Avalon Asic" or a picture of an Avalon Asic.   Any reason for that?    

[nathanrees19]

it is however still the reason why we can't just push the repo to a public git somewhere

Yes you can. Add a warning saying "run XYZ and your unit will be fucked", then push it. Done.

[Dalkore]

- batch #1 will finish shipping by end of Feb, 2013 as originally stated when this project first started back in September.

Should Batch #2 customer just assume that everything in on schedule?   Atleast I never got an emailed confirmation or order number from Avalon.  Is that in the works?   Little updates go a long way and should not be seen as a hassle.

[kano]

Could it be this simple?

Kano respects cgminer, and is proud of his role in forwarding the development of cgminer.
A modified cgminer is used in Jeff Garzik's Avalon with a closed-source device.
Jeff Garzik's Avalon crashes once per day and needs to be restarted.  Memory leak? who knows.


Could it be that Kano simply has respect for how he feels cgminer should be, and Avalon should have tested before shipping?

Just a thought, but does that sound about right?

Yet, it doesn't actually flow with what Kano himself says.

He literally repeats what he has said already in the past.

Kano is a great programmer, I have little doubt on that. But he wants someone to butter his bread. When that someone says no, he goes into the samurai toting ninja you see above.

The last thing he is currently hiding behind is the release of the source code. Beyond that his attitude will stay much the same.

What do you think he would say of BFL if they sent him home without hardware? Or worse, asked him to actually pay for it?

Edit: The only thing I see is that Kano wants something and he approached it in all the wrong ways. Things didn't go well. bASIC folded. Avalon said No, BFL said yes.

He can hide behind "the source code has not been released" issue for a while longer. When it is released, his opinion won't change will it? I wonder why?

No, if you had even half a brain, you would have bothered to read the comments I made back then.
Anyone can see that I'm actually also saying that they don't really even need me to do it.
I have a habit of writing posts/PMs like that with too much info in them that can say, yes you don't need my help.

So just in case you have some deficiency that makes clicking on links and reading difficult, I'll quote it here:

Thirdly, hardware is required for proper support.
If you are going to support all the cgminer requests regarding your changes then that covers one part of it, but if we start getting support requests regarding the software and have no hardware to run it on, then at least some of those support requests are just going to be sent to you.

Every time changes go into cgminer, if we have no hardware to test the changes we can of course not be sure of the effect of those changes on different hardware.
Rarely will it be an issue, but when it is an issue, if we have no hardware, the answer is: well that's unfortunate.

I am stating the obvious, but I thought I better say it here anyway.

Now as most people already know: both BFL and bASIC are sending devs (us and others) hardware to get it working in time for release
(BFL has also stated they are flying me to the USA and yochdog across the USA to see their manufacturing and report to the community)

You seem to want to do the software yourself, but just realise that you may also end up being the ones to support it if only you have the hardware ...

As I said "I am stating the obvious" and I'd wonder where that quote says "You must send me an Avalon"
Feel free to point it out ... I can't see it and I can't remember saying it ...

That above is the quote that even BitSyncom calls

...
But if you are going to come into my thread a year ago stating on how every other ASIC manufacture has been given developers free units so they may support their hardware and if I and Avalon choose not to do this you will not provide support then I'll reject you on sheer principle fucking level.

Good day.

My point was that I can't properly support it ... I thought it was pretty clear ... when I said
"Thirdly, hardware is required for proper support."

I guess the problem may be that I can magically provide support without hardware?
I don't know.
My statement was pretty clear saying that I can't provide support without hardware.
It wasn't a "you must send me hardware" it was "if I don't have hardware I can't support it"
That's like obvious ... as I said: "I am stating the obvious"

So pointing out the truth is now a reason for an Avalon tech guy to turn it into

... I'll reject you on sheer principle fucking level.

...
What do I look like, a search engine?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=36044;sa=showPosts

There, anyone can go read it themselves. For best context, they should look through the threads and read each post with responses and replies.

Yeah I'm not sure why you need to be a google expert to actually check your posts are true ... in your case yeah just misrepresent the facts and blame not being smart enough to use google ...

[Keninishna]

and this is why we can't have nice things.

[Bicknellski]

and this is why we can't have nice things.

+1 Yuup.

[PuertoLibre]

Could it be this simple?

Kano respects cgminer, and is proud of his role in forwarding the development of cgminer.
A modified cgminer is used in Jeff Garzik's Avalon with a closed-source device.
Jeff Garzik's Avalon crashes once per day and needs to be restarted.  Memory leak? who knows.


Could it be that Kano simply has respect for how he feels cgminer should be, and Avalon should have tested before shipping?

Just a thought, but does that sound about right?

Yet, it doesn't actually flow with what Kano himself says.

He literally repeats what he has said already in the past.

Kano is a great programmer, I have little doubt on that. But he wants someone to butter his bread. When that someone says no, he goes into the samurai toting ninja you see above.

The last thing he is currently hiding behind is the release of the source code. Beyond that his attitude will stay much the same.

What do you think he would say of BFL if they sent him home without hardware? Or worse, asked him to actually pay for it?

Edit: The only thing I see is that Kano wants something and he approached it in all the wrong ways. Things didn't go well. bASIC folded. Avalon said No, BFL said yes.

He can hide behind "the source code has not been released" issue for a while longer. When it is released, his opinion won't change will it? I wonder why?

Well, again -

Avalon runs well, then restarts every 24 hours.   That would frustrate the hell out of me, as it'd be so easy for me to help out if I were Kano.  I am not Kano, but I could imagine.

We elected Kano as one of the representatives to be invited by BFL to visit its facility, due to his ability to discern a scam and to possibly test the SC line of hardware himself.  At this point, BFL is obviously not a scam.

By the way, I notice that Kano's avatar has changed.  Is that why you called him "the samurai toting ninja?"   I also notice that your avatar has changed to one that does not include the words "Avalon Asic" or a picture of an Avalon Asic.   Any reason for that?    

I was just changing my avatars since several people were doing it as well.

That and I was literally drinking coke as I looked up the picture.

[PuertoLibre]

Could it be this simple?

Kano respects cgminer, and is proud of his role in forwarding the development of cgminer.
A modified cgminer is used in Jeff Garzik's Avalon with a closed-source device.
Jeff Garzik's Avalon crashes once per day and needs to be restarted.  Memory leak? who knows.


Could it be that Kano simply has respect for how he feels cgminer should be, and Avalon should have tested before shipping?

Just a thought, but does that sound about right?

Yet, it doesn't actually flow with what Kano himself says.

He literally repeats what he has said already in the past.

Kano is a great programmer, I have little doubt on that. But he wants someone to butter his bread. When that someone says no, he goes into the samurai toting ninja you see above.

The last thing he is currently hiding behind is the release of the source code. Beyond that his attitude will stay much the same.

What do you think he would say of BFL if they sent him home without hardware? Or worse, asked him to actually pay for it?

Edit: The only thing I see is that Kano wants something and he approached it in all the wrong ways. Things didn't go well. bASIC folded. Avalon said No, BFL said yes.

He can hide behind "the source code has not been released" issue for a while longer. When it is released, his opinion won't change will it? I wonder why?

No, if you had even half a brain, you would have bothered to read the comments I made back then.
Anyone can see that I'm actually also saying that they don't really even need me to do it.
I have a habit of writing posts/PMs like that with too much info in them that can say, yes you don't need my help.

So just in case you have some deficiency that makes clicking on links and reading difficult, I'll quote it here:

Thirdly, hardware is required for proper support.
If you are going to support all the cgminer requests regarding your changes then that covers one part of it, but if we start getting support requests regarding the software and have no hardware to run it on, then at least some of those support requests are just going to be sent to you.

Every time changes go into cgminer, if we have no hardware to test the changes we can of course not be sure of the effect of those changes on different hardware.
Rarely will it be an issue, but when it is an issue, if we have no hardware, the answer is: well that's unfortunate.

I am stating the obvious, but I thought I better say it here anyway.

Now as most people already know: both BFL and bASIC are sending devs (us and others) hardware to get it working in time for release
(BFL has also stated they are flying me to the USA and yochdog across the USA to see their manufacturing and report to the community)

You seem to want to do the software yourself, but just realise that you may also end up being the ones to support it if only you have the hardware ...

As I said "I am stating the obvious" and I'd wonder where that quote says "You must send me an Avalon"
Feel free to point it out ... I can't see it and I can't remember saying it ...

That above is the quote that even BitSyncom calls

...
But if you are going to come into my thread a year ago stating on how every other ASIC manufacture has been given developers free units so they may support their hardware and if I and Avalon choose not to do this you will not provide support then I'll reject you on sheer principle fucking level.

Good day.

My point was that I can't properly support it ... I thought it was pretty clear ... when I said
"Thirdly, hardware is required for proper support."

I guess the problem may be that I can magically provide support without hardware?
I don't know.
My statement was pretty clear saying that I can't provide support without hardware.
It wasn't a "you must send me hardware" it was "if I don't have hardware I can't support it"
That's like obvious ... as I said: "I am stating the obvious"

So pointing out the truth is now a reason for an Avalon tech guy to turn it into

... I'll reject you on sheer principle fucking level.

...
What do I look like, a search engine?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=36044;sa=showPosts

There, anyone can go read it themselves. For best context, they should look through the threads and read each post with responses and replies.

Yeah I'm not sure why you need to be a google expert to actually check your posts are true ... in your case yeah just misrepresent the facts and blame not being smart enough to use google ...

I noticed you added links to my and Bitsyncom posts.

But you seemingly quoted yours without links. In either case, I already read those.

[PuertoLibre]

My point was that I can't properly support it ... I thought it was pretty clear ... when I said
"Thirdly, hardware is required for proper support."

Start crackin' on asking for those donations from the community. That will resolve your issues.

You are clearly aware of this as a "requirement". Now it is up to you to resolve the issue with purchasing of hardware. Don't wait for it to come to you, start asking for donations.

Lots of people in the linux and other open source communities do that for the developers. People say they respect you quite a bit for your work. So show them there is a need and ask them to provide it for you.

Or be nicer to Yifu and ask nicely for a discount after asking for donations to purchase the required hardware.

-----------------------

Your ultimate "spin" on this topic is that you need to be provided with hardware. Well, you can very easily come half way and get the hardware. Perhaps they will extend a discount for your purchase as a developer.

It doesn't have to come "to you" out of an implied sense of entitlement.

I guess the problem may be that I can magically provide support without hardware?
I don't know.

Ask for donations. You are a critical programmer of cgminer are you not?

Do you not have the support of the community?

My statement was pretty clear saying that I can't provide support without hardware.
It wasn't a "you must send me hardware" it was "if I don't have hardware I can't support it"
That's like obvious ... as I said: "I am stating the obvious"

So pointing out the truth is now a reason for an Avalon tech guy to turn it into

Work out a plan with Yifu.

Have you ever tried beyond..."Well, you know, I need hardware to program on"

Followed by a:

"Well, you don't expect me to work for free."

----------------------
Kano, your an excellent programmer but your applied "spin" on veiled demands needs some fixes.

[BitSyncom]

By proper support you mean support from you? Pfft. No wonder.

Yes, then it was very obvious. We never expected support from you especially if you do not have the hardware.

I didn't understand the intention of your lengthy message about how it is our job to support our own code, it was redundant; especially the part where you mentioned how everyone else is providing you hardware to support instead.

when I tried to understand your logic behind "no one asked me a question but I'm answering anyways" logic frankly speaking it sounded like this instead,

Hey I haven't heard from you guys so I presumed you are getting your own coffee beans(since I haven't heard from you so I presumed you guys are handling support yourselves) I know you guys are not buying coffee(getting support) from me right now and I have the best(am a cgminer codebase maintainer), but just you know, since you never asked to buy my coffee beans for this cafe(never asked me to support this device), I'm here to tell you won't have the best coffee.(can't have proper support)

p.s.
rest of the cafe's on this block is buying coffee beans from me(sending units/hardwares for me to support)

That's sounds like the definition of self important bullshit if I ever heard one. Now, if that is not your intention for things can get lost in translation coming from the southern hemisphere then allow me to man up and apologize in advance for I have wronged you.

Otherwise? Fuck you.  

[organofcorti]

Kano, if you can wait a couple of months i'll have one you can borrow for a bit. Not sure how much help that will be, but the offers there if you need it.

[kano]

Kano, if you can wait a couple of months i'll have one you can borrow for a bit. Not sure how much help that will be, but the offers there if you need it.

Well actually the biggest issue right now as far as I understand with the code is that there are problems and fixes and no one has the code and almost no one has the hardware and no one is doing the fixes.
The side effect of a list of things Avalon has done.

I've actually done a lot of USB code over the last 2 months (well not a lot, but a few thousand lines of changes) and it's all been possible coz I have hardware (MMQ FPGA and BFL FPGA) but until I get an ASIC, I've no real hard answers on how it will perform and what problems there will be.
From testing, I do already know the USB code can sometimes be many times faster than the serial-USB code (due to running old and my new versions of cgminer) but until I throw the code at a 60~80GH/s BFL SC Single, I don't know what optimisations and improvements are possible or necessary ... let alone what a 1.5TH/s BFL MiniRig will do
Certainly at this point in the game, there is no way I'd be doing this without the hardware. It's not even possible to do it properly.

The current Avalon code also uses serial-USB ... which I've been trying to get rid of from cgminer coz it sux ... so completely rewriting it is certainly not on the list of things I will ever be doing

But in the case of the Avalon, at this point in time I'm not involved with it and I don't see that changing
(no matter what they say, my interest in it is certainly now almost zero, and I suspect they feel the same)

However, my interest in the cgminer license is totally independent of that.
At least while I'm involved with cgminer, I certainly will always bring up the issue of hiding the code or violating the license where I see it.
I'll do the same with BFL or anyone else, but of course I know with the companies who are supplying me hardware, that there will be no license violation since I will be writing the code and making it publicly available as I always do.

Long term (i.e. a few months when you get yours) hopefully there will already be someone else looking after it.
But it wont be me.

Thanks indeed for the offer, but I don't suspect I'll ever take it.
However, from what BitSyncom has said, Xiangfu will be getting an Avalon ... some time ... so hopefully he will be the one to maintain the code since he will have the hardware
We see him in the #cgminer channel often (and yes also when he was asking about how to do the Avalon code last year

I can seriously say at this point in time, that if the BFL SC Single does do 60~80GH/s at ~100W, I certainly wont want an Avalon.
But at this point in time that still isn't certain ... though I'll not be surprised if that does become a certainly in the very near future.
However, like when bASIC started, I do hope there will be some other company providing competition with BFL ...
Such a pity bASIC went down the drain.

[kano]

By proper support you mean support from you? Pfft. No wonder.
...

No, by proper support I mean anyone who does the code would need the hardware to make it optimal and to not stifle code development by others
(and a github account would be necessary also)
As I said above, that will hopefully be Xiangfu.
It could actually be best to be ckolivas ... but anyway ...

Yes your question has an answer of "No" even though you follow it with a long post of mostly rubbish making an incorrect assumption it is "Yes"

[BitSyncom]

By proper support you mean support from you? Pfft. No wonder.
...

No, by proper support I mean anyone who does the code would need the hardware to make it optimal and to not stifle code development by others
(and a github account would be necessary also)
As I said above, that will hopefully be Xiangfu.
It could actually be best to be ckolivas ... but anyway ...

Yes your question has an answer of "No" even though you follow it with a long post of mostly rubbish making an incorrect assumption it is "Yes"

Well, then. I man up and apologizes for doubting your intention. I suppose I read too much into it, and now can move on to better things.

[meowmeowbrowncow]

This entire thread was silly and shows negative aspects to each party's personality.

Eh, an overstatement.  I'll just leave this:


1.  Kano.  Thanks for your transport protocol work.
2.  Avalon.  Get your bugs fixed rather than spending time telling ppl to FO on the forum.