What exactly is wrong with LTC?

[DeathAndTaxes]

Next franky1 will be attacking coblee for being a "bitcoin superfan".  Franky1 you can't fix stupid so I won't try.   It wasn't Luke Jr stating LiteCoin has GPU hostile it was essentially everyone. It is obvious if you read the actual launch thread.

[franky1]

hostile.. not resistant...

luke JR touted it as resistant. EG impossible.
and i seen the epic drama of the wiki edit war. its also well documented.

in the end its now 2013 and people CAN and DO mine litecoins using GPU's so trying to say litecoin is GPU resistant is a moot point. so using old out of context comments from 14 months ago in an attempt to try to keep the userbase within bitcoin is simply a worthless path to try walking. so give users their freedom.

its all about context.

and thank you coblee i got no issues with you

[efx]

All algorithms will fall to advancements. Making scrypt more 'memory intensive' (isn't it more about amount/bus width/latency?) or leaving the parameters as they were would only delay the inevitable, at best. In fact, it could have easily made the situation worse, leaving the field open to highly specialized hardware domination (high initial costs offset by extreme increases in hashrate).  I've seen claims on here that the current implementation is leaving the field open for FPGAs... That's entirely incorrect.  Yes, you can technically mine with them. No, it isn't very fast and the initial cost eliminates the efficiency advantage.

Specialized FPGAs may change the landscape slightly. LTC-scrypt ASICs will remain prohibitive for a long while yet.



Also, I'm really tired of hearing about you children and your ScamRoad. Some of us do live in the real world and aren't incapable of finding entertainment (or whatever you're doing on there ) without the assistance of unknown internet people, you know.

[-ck]

Actually I toyed with some native CUDA (i.e. NVIDIA only GPU code) recently and found it has scope for doing things with memory that can't be done with openCL. While the integer performance on Nvidia cards is significantly below that of the AMD cards, approximately 96% of the calculation time in scrypt, by my profiling measurements, is spent on memory operations. I think there is scope for a Nvidia only CUDA kernel that would perform quite well compared to the OpenCL kernel that is currently used by both AMD and Nvidia cards on cgminer+reaper. How well I can't say, but I can say it would be a lot of work, and funding me to code it would be very expensive since I don't really care much about LTC, but I do enjoy coding (especially when funded). I also can't guarantee that it would somehow magically make nvidia cards better LTC miners than AMD. However someone else might find the idea interesting to pursue.

[efx]

I highly doubt it would yield the results you expect, but I would be interested in hearing more.

However, I have no interest in funding a project based on 1) pure speculation and 2) something that needs to be licensed by people attempting to utilize that hardware's compute functionality for commercial purposes.


"found it has scope for doing things with memory that can't be done with openCL" Care to explain this more fully? How deeply have you examined the opencl documentation?


Anyways, I think opening up the actively mining and available hardware base would be advantageous in the long run, regardless of my views on certain products and the underlying code.

[abbyd]

All algorithms will fall to advancements.

However, on that note, it is prudent to observe that "diverse exchange markets
with coins based on different hashing algorithms should create stability" ...

[-ck]

"recently and found it has scope for doing things with memory that can't be done with openCL" Care to explain this more fully? How deeply have you examined the opencl documentation?

Extensively...

[efx]

Sorry, I was still editing.

So, would you say the reaper kernel is not able to be improved, or do you just lack the motivation? This is a semi-loaded question,  



abbyd, makes sense in theory, I guess. Emotionally driven trading might nullify some of that possible stability though.

[-ck]

Sorry, I was still editing.

So, would you say the reaper kernel is not able to be improved, or do you just lack the motivation? This is a semi-loaded question,  

No, I can't personally improve on the reaper kernel because it does funky shit to work around the fact you can't allocate memory properly to the extent required to do so much parallel work with scrypt. However CUDA does allow you to allocate ram in a reliable fashion in much greater quantities and in layouts you desire without resorting to tricks. What I lack is the motivation and the incentive to start investigating what that would yield. I'm currently busy preparing for ASICs for BTC... and as I said, I can't guarantee what magnitude of improvement it would offer. The thing is that sha256(sha256()) as used by bitcoin mining is very easy to predict the effects of and there is no way to work around the fact that nvidia's integer performance sucks 1st and has no rotate function 2nd (and even adding rotate in Kepler will not be enough to offset the 1st).

[efx]

Okay...Interesting. I'm familiar with some of these concepts, especially in terms of sha256 hashing. I appreciate you taking the time to cover this. I believe those opencl allocation tricks are still maturing, perhaps....Anyways, It will be interesting to see what the new GCN memory management optimizations yield alone.

  Maybe someone with an nvidia farm (smallluxgpu has changed the GPU render scene, though) will take you up on the offer, it sounds like you have a bit of untapped performance to work with for CUDA-specific scrypt hashing.

However, kernel development isn't exactly stagnant on the opencl side either  



"I'm currently busy preparing for ASICs for BTC" best of luck!

[sublime5447]

GUYS I WILL BUY YOUR LITECOINS! If anyone is interested PM me. I will pay spot price with PayPal. I want to start selling them on ebay. I am really interested in growing it. I have about 200 customers now that I could be selling them to. If you wont take PP, I will buy with other methods for a lower price. I make my living on ebay so I always have PP it is the most convenient way for me to buy. We have sold BTC on ebay for the last 6 months my store is northoutboards. So mine those bitches and lets get it out there.   

[cptmooseinc]

@sublime:

Got to BTC-e.com, deposit via Liqpay (1% fee added by Liqpay, 1% fee added by BTC-e) with a CC (I use the Paypal Debit Card that runs as credit, so I only pay .5% net fees because of my cash-back). You can make two $250 deposits per day via that method. That should be plenty if you only need a small supply and wish to pay little to no fees for them. Even if you have one of the crappy, newer PP Debit Cards that only gives 1% cash back, you can't beat only paying 1% fees to get LTC. And...no one will worry about you trying to scam them for Paypal.

Also, spot for Paypal is ridiculous. Paypal carries risk, so above spot would have to be offered. Other methods MIGHT get you closer to spot. Either way, I'd just do what I mentioned above to build your LTC chest.

-Moose

[sublime5447]

I will check it out Thanks.

[efx]

Well, I assume you have found a way to deal with chargebacks with ebay-paypal. It would be wise to use the same technique(s) for the litecoin auctions.

I guess you already know this 

[sublime5447]

Well, I assume you have found a way to deal with chargebacks with ebay-paypal. It would be wise to use the same technique(s) for the litecoin auctions.

I guess you already know this 

I have and I do thanks. Not 100% but 99.8 percent charge back free.

[efx]

That's a very good return! Feel free to PM me (same name) at btc-e if you need help with anything. Often there are some helpful people in the chat, too.

Best of luck!

[smoothie]

Next franky1 will be attacking coblee for being a "bitcoin superfan".  Franky1 you can't fix stupid so I won't try.   It wasn't Luke Jr stating LiteCoin has GPU hostile it was essentially everyone. It is obvious if you read the actual launch thread.

@DeathAndTaxes - you are pathetic trying to point out one inconsistency in a statement that had no bearing in a matter to scam anyone made 16 months ago, which makes it now irrelevant. Satoshi didn't expect GPUs to come on board for bitcoin, right? So shouldn't you be complaining about that too? Get over yourself. People will choose to use what they want to use. Use bitcoin, use litecoin, I don't give a fuck if you use Solidcoin, just stop trying to make it seem that Litecoin is the devil and Bitcoin is Jesus.

@Franky1 - It is nice to hear that there is a possibility for restaurants to accept LTC and/or BTC through the just-eat website. Please keep us informed.

@Coblee - good to have you back. Despite how litecoin started, I guess you can't please everyone even myself when it comes to launching a coin. Let's move forward and let the nay-sayers keep saying what they want to. Time will tell ultimately what pans out.

Ultimately the FREE MARKET is what matters, not what DeathAndTaxes think. Keep this in mind guys.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Satoshi didn't expect GPUs to come on board for bitcoin, right?

Why would you think that?  Using more efficient technology is inevitable.  General purpose computing on GPU already existed prior to Bitcoin in the form of NVidia CUDA.   Even ASICs are possible on LTC and for a lot less than most people imagine.  Just reading the scrypt whitepaper one can figure that out.  Now LTC will warrant that kind of investment but it would only be for the same reason there are no SolidCoin ASICs not because it isn't possible.  The crippled parameters of LTC made sure of that.

Ultimately the FREE MARKET is what matters, not what DeathAndTaxes think. Keep this in mind guys.

I never said ban LTC.  I said it is nearly worthless, I stated my opinion and justification for those opinions.  Guess what the free market you love so much would seem to agree with me.

[iCEBREAKER]

I never said ban LTC.  I said it is nearly worthless, I stated my opinion and justification for those opinions.  Guess what the free market you love so much would seem to agree with me.

Bitcoin was also "nearly worthless" only a short time ago.

The invisible hand of the market tends to pimp slap those who presume to know its future plans.

GPU miners may flock to Litecoin when ASICs have driven the difficulty up beyond BTC profitability.

[efx]

 Even ASICs are possible on LTC and for a lot less than most people imagine.  Just reading the scrypt whitepaper one can figure that out.  

" for a lot less than most people imagine." Wrong, at least in the way you are attempting to present it.