Advice On Bitcoin Miners.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

That be them (swamp cooling). Something else to keep in mind is that the miners do NOT need an ambient 'comfortable' for people. My main farm remains quite happy when their room gets up to 85-87F in the summer.

[2112]

OK you seem to have ignored my previous two posts so here's my final advice.....

You are way too late to get into Mining, even with your pretend free electricity.

RichBC, I think you've completely missed the key point:

(think he just wants to say he has a BTC farm in his factory)

This Bitcoin farm is getting build to facilitate a better industrial property sale. It is kind of like putting a fresh coat of paint on a house before sale. Even if it creates 100% loss it is a tax write-off. Whatever that factory builds or welds, it is getting prepared for a profitable sale. There's a good momentum on the real estate (property) market in the UK now.

I've heard that in London other security/watchmen/guards companies getting free electricity in unoccupied buildings on the following conditions:

1) keep the squatters out
2) keep the light on
3) keep the human and car traffic on so that the property looks like it is busy/occupied
4) don't violate any municipal safety codes.

It is all in preparation for a "flip". Please learn the estate agent speak. 

[ScottishSecurity]

That be them (swamp cooling). Something else to keep in mind is that the miners do NOT need an ambient 'comfortable' for people. My main farm remains quite happy when their room gets up to 85-87F in the summer.

I've wondered about the future of miners a lot recently one thought was miners cooled by liquid nitrogen in some way, I see quantum computing is taking big leaps forward and they use liquid nitrogen to keep the chips cool. even though the systems are the size of a room at the moment we can't be too far away from scaled down versions of this..

also liquid cooled boards and chips is something I am interested it. If they can make CPU liquid cooled then sureley btc miners could follow suit?

[NotFuzzyWarm]

That be them (swamp cooling). Something else to keep in mind is that the miners do NOT need an ambient 'comfortable' for people. My main farm remains quite happy when their room gets up to 85-87F in the summer.

I've wondered about the future of miners a lot recently one thought was miners cooled by liquid nitrogen in some way, I see quantum computing is taking big leaps forward and they use liquid nitrogen to keep the chips cool. even though the systems are the size of a room at the moment we can't be too far away from scaled down versions of this..

also liquid cooled boards and chips is something I am interested it. If they can make CPU liquid cooled then sureley btc miners could follow suit?

BitFury with their data tank division are the ones to talk to on immersion cooling setups. Very efficient means of moving the heat from a very compact point-A (the miner tank(s) to Point-B (outside). Large-scale of course with each tank handling several hundred THs I believe.

[ScottishSecurity]

OK you seem to have ignored my previous two posts so here's my final advice.....

You are way too late to get into Mining, even with your pretend free electricity.

RichBC, I think you've completely missed the key point:

(think he just wants to say he has a BTC farm in his factory)

This Bitcoin farm is getting build to facilitate a better industrial property sale. It is kind of like putting a fresh coat of paint on a house before sale. Even if it creates 100% loss it is a tax write-off. Whatever that factory builds or welds, it is getting prepared for a profitable sale. There's a good momentum on the real estate (property) market in the UK now.

I've heard that in London other security/watchmen/guards companies getting free electricity in unoccupied buildings on the following conditions:

1) keep the squatters out
2) keep the light on
3) keep the human and car traffic on so that the property looks like it is busy/occupied
4) don't violate any municipal safety codes.

It is all in preparation for a "flip". Please learn the estate agent speak.  

Hi,

I know for fact that there is no intention of "flipping" the business or factory.. In fact they recently signed a deal worth almost 20 million with a company in the far east. Unfortunately I am unable to say what they produce or where they are located for obvious reasons.

As for security company's yes I have heard of this, and it happens a lot more than you would think,  But in this country right now if you have a source of free electricity most people are opting for weed farms. (even though they are 100% illegal here) that's where the "big guns" are making there serious money..

I know there is no intention of the factory being sold, I have known the owner for 18 years and watched him build it from the ground up. So I would be very very surprised if something like this was on the cards..

Thanks

[mwizard]

@ 70 TH x 20 Avalon 6 @ Hashrate: 3.5TH/s ±5%

Days to generate one block : 126.89 Days
Days to generate one BTC: 5.08 Days
Days to break even: 125.19 Days

What total USD cost did you assume above for the above calculations?  

You also need to keep in mind that there is a 20% UK VAT, shipping costs and cost of power supplies.

With 20 Avalon 6 for $18,000 USD you need at add 3,600 for VAT, say $1,000 for shipping and $2,000 for power supplies giving say $25,000 USD or 17,000 Sterling.

With 70 TH and $25,000 USD the break even points become

Days to generate one block mining solo: 126.89 Day(s) (can vary greatly depending on your luck)
Days to generate one BTC: 5.08 Day(s) (can vary greatly depending on the current exchange rates)
Days to break even: 297.51 Day(s) (can vary greatly depending on the current exchange rates)

The above does not take the halving into account.  It is possible you will never recover your initial investment.

Also we assume the factory runs 24 by 7 days and does not turn off cooling on weekends.

[ScottishSecurity]

@ 70 TH x 20 Avalon 6 @ Hashrate: 3.5TH/s ±5%

Days to generate one block : 126.89 Days
Days to generate one BTC: 5.08 Days
Days to break even: 125.19 Days

What total USD cost did you assume above for the above calculations?  

You also need to keep in mind that there is a 20% UK VAT, shipping costs and cost of power supplies.

With 20 Avalon 6 for $18,000 USD you need at add 3,600 for VAT, say $1,000 for shipping and $2,000 for power supplies giving say $25,000 USD or 17,000 Sterling.

With 70 TH and $25,000 USD the break even points become

Days to generate one block mining solo: 126.89 Day(s) (can vary greatly depending on your luck)
Days to generate one BTC: 5.08 Day(s) (can vary greatly depending on the current exchange rates)
Days to break even: 297.51 Day(s) (can vary greatly depending on the current exchange rates)

The above does not take the halving into account.  It is possible you will never recover your initial investment.

I see your logic here but we are VAT register in the UK so the VAT we will claim back from HMRC,

17,000 GBP is still less that our starting budget. and to be honest we do have a small % we have held back for additional costs.

There are also ways to Import into the UK at a 0 VAT rate.. You just need to know what country to ship into the UK from.

[mwizard]

Assuming you can avoid the VAT, with say $21,000 USD cost and 70 THS the break even point is still:

Days to break even: 249.91 Day(s) (can vary greatly depending on the current exchange rates)

And this ignores the halving and is without pool fees.

The figures with the Avalon 10 Pack just don't seem to stack up.

[2112]

Hi,

I know for fact that there is no intention of "flipping" the buisness or factory.. Infact they recently signed a deal worth almost 20 million with a company in the far east. unfortunaly I am unable to say what they produce or where they are located for obvious reasons.

As for security companys yes I have heard of this, and it happens a lot more than you would think,  But in this country right now if you have a source of free electricity most people are opting for weed farms. (even though they are 100% illegal here) thats where the "big guns" are making there serious money..

I know there is no intention of the factory being sold, I have known the owner for 18 years and watched him build it from the ground up. So I would be very very surprised if something like this was on the cards..

Thanks

Man, it is a standard price negotiation strategy. There was even a feature film (can't recall the title) explaining all this on the example of Olympia and York redeveloping Canary Wharf, which was industrial area turned into office/residential spaces.

More recently estate agents invested into Jason Statham's movie Hummingbird/Redemption to create traffic around some rather underpriced locations in London to spruce them up for sale. And quite successfully. If somebody knows London and watches the movie they can recognize the location where Bitcoins were mined (light industrial use?) and later on the property was sold.

Obviously, I don't know neither the actual location nor the persons involved. But this is a speculation subforum, and I can recognize speculator's hand when I see one. Bitcoin has this great advantage (compared to anything expressly illegal) that no real guns are required to defend them and the investment amounts are comparatively small.

Edit: spelling and quoting fixes

[ScottishSecurity]

Assuming you can avoid the VAT, with say $21,000 USD cost and 70 THS the break even point is still:

Days to break even: 249.91 Day(s) (can vary greatly depending on the current exchange rates)

And this ignores the halving.

The figures with the Avalon 10 Pack just don't seem to stack up.

I appoligise. I did make a mistake..its late here. 2am! need coffee!
I entered for 10 miners at 9500.

thats where the figures came from.. under the assumption of 0 rate import.

Hash Rate (GH/s):70000.00
Power (Watts): 1200w
Power Cost ($/kWh): £0.00
Pool Fees %: £0.00
Bitcoin Difficulty: 178678307671.68800
Block Reward: 25
Bitcoin to Dollar (USD):426.900000
Hardware Costs (USD): $9500

Days to generate one block mining solo: 126.89 Day(s)
Days to generate one BTC: 5.08 Day(s)
Days to break even: 112.95 Day(s)

you are correct in saying that changes after the halfing.

thanks for pointing this out to me,

[ScottishSecurity]

OK you seem to have ignored my previous two posts so here's my final advice.....

You are way too late to get into Mining, even with your pretend free electricity.

RichBC, I think you've completely missed the key point:

(think he just wants to say he has a BTC farm in his factory)

This Bitcoin farm is getting build to facilitate a better industrial property sale. It is kind of like putting a fresh coat of paint on a house before sale. Even if it creates 100% loss it is a tax write-off. Whatever that factory builds or welds, it is getting prepared for a profitable sale. There's a good momentum on the real estate (property) market in the UK now.

I've heard that in London other security/watchmen/guards companies getting free electricity in unoccupied buildings on the following conditions:

1) keep the squatters out
2) keep the light on
3) keep the human and car traffic on so that the property looks like it is busy/occupied
4) don't violate any municipal safety codes.

It is all in preparation for a "flip". Please learn the estate agent speak. 

Hi,

I know for fact that there is no intention of "flipping" the buisness or factory.. Infact they recently signed a deal worth almost 20 million with a company in the far east. unfortunaly I am unable to say what they produce or where they are located for obvious reasons.

As for security companys yes I have heard of this, and it happens a lot more than you would think,  But in this country right now if you have a source of free electricity most people are opting for weed farms. (even though they are 100% illegal here) thats where the "big guns" are making there serious money..

I know there is no intention of the factory being sold, I have known the owner for 18 years and watched him build it from the ground up. So I would be very very surprised if something like this was on the cards..

Thanks

Man, it is a standard price negotiation strategy. There was even a feature film (can't recall the title) explaining all this on the example of Olympia and York redeveloping Canary Wharf, which was industrial area turned into office/residential spaces.

More recently estate agents invested into Jason Statham's movie Hummingbird/Redemption to create traffic around some rather underprices locations in London to spruce them up for sale. And quite successfully. If somebody knows London and watches the movie they can recognize the location where Bitcoins were mined (light industrial use?) and later on the property was sold.

Obviously, I don't know neither the actual location nor the persons involved. But this is a speculation subforum, and I can recognize speculator's hand when I see one. Bitcoin has this great advantage (compared to anything expressly illegal) that no real guns are required to defend them and the investment amounts are comparatively small.

That is a very very intersting theory and I will be looking into that more. But you are very far from the path we are going down.. It has nothing to do with any kind of re-generation or selling.

to be honest in london if there was serious money involved then yes there most likley would be guns.. But in scotland, people still run about the streets with swords like braveheart.

I would be very interested to find out what this film was called. I will do some digging into this!

thanks..

Scottish Security

http://scottishsecurity.net
https://facebook.com/scottishsec

[mwizard]

I appoligise. I did make a mistake..its late here. 2am! need coffee!
I entered for 10 miners at 9500.

thats where the figures came from.. under the assumption of 0 rate import.

Hash Rate (GH/s):70000.00
Power (Watts): 1200w
Power Cost ($/kWh): £0.00
Pool Fees %: £0.00
Bitcoin Difficulty: 178678307671.68800
Block Reward: 25
Bitcoin to Dollar (USD):426.900000
Hardware Costs (USD): $9500

Days to generate one block mining solo: 126.89 Day(s)
Days to generate one BTC: 5.08 Day(s)
Days to break even: 112.95 Day(s)

you are correct in saying that changes after the halfing.

thanks for pointing this out to me,

So with the correct 20 miners (rather than 10),  the cost and break even point will double to about 245 days. This ignores VAT and Halving.

[ScottishSecurity]

I appoligise. I did make a mistake..its late here. 2am! need coffee!
I entered for 10 miners at 9500.

thats where the figures came from.. under the assumption of 0 rate import.

Hash Rate (GH/s):70000.00
Power (Watts): 1200w
Power Cost ($/kWh): £0.00
Pool Fees %: £0.00
Bitcoin Difficulty: 178678307671.68800
Block Reward: 25
Bitcoin to Dollar (USD):426.900000
Hardware Costs (USD): $9500

Days to generate one block mining solo: 126.89 Day(s)
Days to generate one BTC: 5.08 Day(s)
Days to break even: 112.95 Day(s)

you are correct in saying that changes after the halfing.

thanks for pointing this out to me,

So with the correct 20 miners (rather than 10),  the cost and break even point will double to about 245 days. This ignores VAT and Halving.

I believe you are correct. like I said at the start we are here to learn and take advice, Possibly S6 S7 are not the right miners for us and we should hold out and see what bitfury come out with as previously advised.

Thank you for pointing this out to me,

SS

[NotFuzzyWarm]

<snip>
I believe you are correct. like I said at the start we are here to learn and take advice, Possibly S6 S7 are not the right miners for us and we should hold out and see what bitfury come out with as previously advised.

Thank you for pointing this out to me,

SS

Or what Bitmain comes out with. Remember: Both Bitmain and BitFury use TSMC as their chip foundry so it is a damn safe bet that the earthquake delays at TSMC's 16nm fab that blew BitFury's announced chip release schedule out of the water also are why Bitmain has not released a new 16nm node miner yet.

As a FYI, the current 28nm node chips are produced in a different fab at TSMC and the 28nm node process/equipment is much more forgiving of even large scale disturbances. Their 28nm and higher fabs were back up in around 1 week. That is why TSMC was able to continue production of chips for Bitmain to be used in the s7.

BitFury only makes (well technically, designs/sells) chips which are then sold to integrators (including BitFury's own build-you-a-Peta Farm divisions) with no reliable information yet as to *who* those integrators are/will be to be made into miners whereas Bitmain makes (again, designs. TSMC does the actual making of  the chips) and ready to run (aside from PSU) miners. When BitFury finally gets wafers/chips based on 16nm then Bitmain will as well and be fully prepared to put them into miners. When they do, then look out boys and girls.

[2112]

That is a very very intersting theory and I will be looking into that more. But you are very far from the path we are going down.. It has nothing to do with any kind of re-generation or selling.

to be honest in london if there was serious money involved then yes there most likley would be guns.. But in scotland, people still run about the streets with swords like braveheart.

I would be very interested to find out what this film was called. I will do some digging into this!

thanks..

Scottish Security

I'm sorry, I don't remember any more details for the movie. I had to look up names "O&Y" and "Canary Wharf", that was over 20 years ago.

If you are not averse to learning from the movies, then watch the recent comedy "Unfinished Business" with Vince Vaughn and Dave Franco. It deals (amongst other things) about the issue of how to distinguish a genuine business opportunity from just being a fluffer. Although the movie is sold as a comedy, in my opinion the drama part is much better.

[ScottishSecurity]

Thanks, I will have a look see if i can find it,  I would say i'm more of a "real world" learner than "movies"

Thank you all for the insight you have all provided, It has given me a 20+ question sheet to go away and work out the next plan of action.

I am meeting today with the compnay and will put all what has been presented to me to them and see what route we should go down.

Thanks

Scottish Security

http://scottishsecurity.net
https://facebook.com/ScottishSec

[tertius993]

Don't forget if you are running it as a business (as you would need to to be able to reclaim the VAT) then you need to allow for all the associated running costs of a business (accounting, tax returns, etc.) and presumably corporation tax will be payable on any profits.

As an aside I'd love to see the annual return for a company like the one you are describing ...

[ScottishSecurity]

Don't forget if you are running it as a business (as you would need to to be able to reclaim the VAT) then you need to allow for all the associated running costs of a business (accounting, tax returns, etc.) and presumably corporation tax will be payable on any profits.

As an aside I'd love to see the annual return for a company like the one you are describing ...

Thanks, We have a outside company lined up to deal with the tax affairs.  We already have a company register with company's house for our part of the business..

As we are not part of the main factory and out income is no where near what there income is then I think we should be ok.

Threshold for VAT is 75k in the UK. which we are already registered.

corporation tax rates for 2016

Small profits rate (companies with profits under £300,000)
Main rate (companies with profits over £300,000
Main rate (all profits except ring fence profits)   20%

[notlist3d]

Don't forget if you are running it as a business (as you would need to to be able to reclaim the VAT) then you need to allow for all the associated running costs of a business (accounting, tax returns, etc.) and presumably corporation tax will be payable on any profits.

As an aside I'd love to see the annual return for a company like the one you are describing ...

They also have a LOT they can right off the first year.  With one time fees like PSU's, Electrical, Racks, Cooling, etc.  They have quite the write off on taxes I would guess.  And it is legitimate as it is a cost.

Second tax year I would expect right off's to be much smaller.  I would agree though I would love to see a mining company this size profit.  But it is going to be going up against some heavy hitters.

[ScottishSecurity]

Don't forget if you are running it as a business (as you would need to to be able to reclaim the VAT) then you need to allow for all the associated running costs of a business (accounting, tax returns, etc.) and presumably corporation tax will be payable on any profits.

As an aside I'd love to see the annual return for a company like the one you are describing ...

They also have a LOT they can right off the first year.  With one time fees like PSU's, Electrical, Racks, Cooling, etc.  They have quite the write off on taxes I would guess.  And it is legitimate as it is a cost.

Second tax year I would expect right off's to be much smaller.  I would agree though I would love to see a mining company this size profit.  But it is going to be going up against some heavy hitters.

Hi,

yes there would be some costs we can claim back the VAT on, and write off many things.  We have contacted a tax and vat specialist to advise us on these matters, Don't want to have HMRC knocking on the door asking for a big bag of cash somewhere down the line so need to make 100% sure everything is fully documented,

Thanks.