Advertising on BFL website is very misleading to NEW CUSTOMERS

[smoothie]

B) Their adds never say that they have a product ready to ship. The add you screenshot on the BCT forums links to their website, which has a giant "PRE-ORDER NOW" orange button on their home page, and a bolded pre-order disclaimer on every single product description. I don't know how you want them to be more clear.

What website are you looking at? Clicking through the ad goes to http://butterflylabs.com/products?s1 and lets you checkout without ever mentioning the pre-order status. That's no giant "PRE-ORDER NOW" button. That's a giant ORDER NOW button.

https://i.imgur.com/dz2UAcV.png

Read my quote again? I can't actually see the adds (don't tell the mods), so I went to http://www.butterflylabs.com/ . I see something that looks like this:



See the "PRE-ORDER NOW" button?

@Crazyates,

You so failed lol. Nice try to detract from the truth. What you got to say about this now? "ORDER NOW"...but the fucking chips/devices are not even done. MISLEADING

LOL![/size][/b]

Yep, large, annoying text means you win. Darn, you got me! 

The point is that if a vendor says they will not refund (implying they will ship and you cant cancel) at least you can definitively calculate your risk much better than with BFL. BFL could NOT refund all customers right now if all customers were to request a refund all at the same time. That is another way of saying BFL is a PONZI.

......

At least with a vendor saying they WILL NOT refund YOU KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT>

With BFL you DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT...just more EXCUSES and BULLSHIT.

So let me get this straight. You're saying that because BFL offers refunds, you can't properly calculate the amount of risk that is involved in pre-ordering from them, and they're a ponzi? But because Avalon doesn't offer refunds, they're the safer bet? The only two options are either offer refunds, or ship products? Avalon doesn't offer refunds, so it's a 100% guarantee you will get a product? But BFL does offer refunds, so there's a chance you won't get your product, so it's not smart to buy from BFL? So. Fucking. Stupid.

Or how about this crazy thought - I don't ask for a refund, and they ship me a Single when it's ready? Or I can ask for a refund, and they give me my money back! How does that make them less attractive?

LOL Right...buying from BFL is so fucking "SMART".

How's that detracting by bringing in other vendor's fails working out for you to get attention off of BFL and on to others?

Fail again ...

[1713896139]

1713896139

[1713896139]

1713896139

[smoothie]

@ Crazyates,

Since you obviously missed my point...i'll repeat it once more lol

POINT: I would rather have a vendor be upfront from the get go (so that I do not have to guess what to expect from them), than to be lied to continuously from a company that will "Gaurantee" all preorder refunds, but yet at the same time CANT keep their word on a shipping timeline.

I choose the option where I don't have to guess. BFL just has too many signs of being a bullshit scam...from the Box of fans at CES to the insistent troll that is Josh_BFL/Inaba. Not to mention....Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar?.....

Still waiting.....or as many of you BFL converts call it..."Keeping the FAITH".

LOL

[crazyates]

LOL Right...buying from BFL is so fucking "SMART".

How's that detracting by bringing in other vendor's fails working out for you to get attention off of BFL and on to others?

Fail again ...

You didn't answer any of my questions, or offer any valid arguments or counter-points. You simply repeated your stance that I'm trying to distract you from BFL's competitor's shortcomings. I'd like you to look thru this thread from top to bottom, and determine who started the comparison between BFL and their competitors, specifically their stance on refunds. Hint: it wasn't me.

After you've done that, I'd like you to come back and provide some sort of valid argument.

POINT: I would rather have a vendor be upfront from the get go (so that I do not have to guess what to expect from them), than to be lied to continuously from a company that will "Gaurantee" all preorder refunds, but yet at the same time CANT keep their word on a shipping timeline.[/b]

I choose the option where I don't have to guess. BFL just has too many signs of being a bullshit scam...from the Box of fans at CES to the insistent troll that is Josh_BFL/Inaba. Not to mention....Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar?.....

So you want a vendor that's upfront, where you don't have to guess. One that doesn't lie to you. Soo.... who is that?

According to you, it's not BFL cuz they can't ship on time. And you think they're a scam, which is your personal opinion, and can't be proved.

Well I don't think Avalon is your magic vendor either. They totally fucked up Batch #1 AND Batch #2 orders. They lied about the power figures. They didn't release any pictures until RIGHT before they started "shipping". They "shipped" a month ago, and almost no customers have any units. And then we have the no refunds thing.

So what's your solution? Obviously we can't buy from BFL, cuz they're terrible at deadlines. Obviously we can't order from Avalon, cuz it's a power hog, and their administrative efforts are non-existent.

I don't compare BFL to their competitors to distract you from BFL's shortcomings. I'm saying that contrary to your POINT, I still think they're the better option.

[smoothie]

LOL Right...buying from BFL is so fucking "SMART".

How's that detracting by bringing in other vendor's fails working out for you to get attention off of BFL and on to others?

Fail again ...

You didn't answer any of my questions, or offer any valid arguments or counter-points. You simply repeated your stance that I'm trying to distract you from BFL's competitor's shortcomings. I'd like you to look thru this thread from top to bottom, and determine who started the comparison between BFL and their competitors, specifically their stance on refunds. Hint: it wasn't me.

After you've done that, I'd like you to come back and provide some sort of valid argument.

POINT: I would rather have a vendor be upfront from the get go (so that I do not have to guess what to expect from them), than to be lied to continuously from a company that will "Gaurantee" all preorder refunds, but yet at the same time CANT keep their word on a shipping timeline.[/b]

I choose the option where I don't have to guess. BFL just has too many signs of being a bullshit scam...from the Box of fans at CES to the insistent troll that is Josh_BFL/Inaba. Not to mention....Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar?.....

So you want a vendor that's upfront, where you don't have to guess. One that doesn't lie to you. Soo.... who is that?

According to you, it's not BFL cuz they can't ship on time. And you think they're a scam, which is your personal opinion, and can't be proved.

Well I don't think Avalon is your magic vendor either. They totally fucked up Batch #1 AND Batch #2 orders. They lied about the power figures. They didn't release any pictures until RIGHT before they started "shipping". They "shipped" a month ago, and almost no customers have any units. And then we have the no refunds thing.

So what's your solution? Obviously we can't buy from BFL, cuz they're terrible at deadlines. Obviously we can't order from Avalon, cuz it's a power hog, and their administrative efforts are non-existent.

I don't compare BFL to their competitors to distract you from BFL's shortcomings. I'm saying that contrary to your POINT, I still think they're the better option.

I dont have to do anything you want me to.

BFL are known liars...end of story. If you choose to put your faith into a business that lies to its customers then have at it.

If BFL is the better option then perhaps you should put your money where your mouth is and add even MORE to your risk of BFL preorders. Sell your house, car, wife, etc.

That would be fun and I would commend you for it as well as laugh at you. lol

[PuertoLibre]

So let me get this straight. You're saying that because BFL offers refunds, you can't properly calculate the amount of risk that is involved in pre-ordering from them, and they're a ponzi? But because Avalon doesn't offer refunds, they're the safer bet? The only two options are either offer refunds, or ship products? Avalon doesn't offer refunds, so it's a 100% guarantee you will get a product? But BFL does offer refunds, so there's a chance you won't get your product, so it's not smart to buy from BFL? So. Fucking. Stupid.

Actually, not so "stupid".

Think back to what happened with bASIC.

Yes, there you go, they collapsed because of delays (same as BFL) and open ended refunds availability (again same as BFL).

Keep that in mind. bASIC is a practical outcome of this in actual practice.

Anytime you embark on something and you tap the pool of cash that isn't technically yours yet AND offer open ended refunds, there is a risk of collapse.

BFL has been asked several times if they have each penny accounted for. They said yes. They were asked if they had dipped into these funds, they have always maintained they never have nor will do so.

---------------------------

So in theory there is no risk as long as you know of the health of the Venture Capitalist. Of course, no one is told who provided the venture capitali. So...you sorta have to go on faith that this is actually true and is [supposedly] the case.

In the case of bASIC, a good number of customers were left holding the bag because (as I particularly warned) they all rushed to get their money back at the same time.

Some were left with no money, and you guessed it, no product.

Had bASIC followed Avalon on not providing open ended refunds, they wouldn't have gone under. People also wouldn't have lost their money or be left trying to recover those monies via the courts.

Or how about this crazy thought - I don't ask for a refund, and they ship me a Single when it's ready? Or I can ask for a refund, and they give me my money back! How does that make them less attractive?

The only thing you have to hope is that the BFL chips work within spec. If not, bASIC v2 will happen once again.

At which point a smart company would say "no" to refunds and piss off customers but stay in buisness.

Or

Say "yes", try to please everyone, and go dark after a certain threshold has been reached in viability.

-----------

Of course, the only good end for everyone is that the chips must work. Full stop. Any problems and I doubt there will be a recovery. So hammer the BFL forums and figure out whether things are going right in the process.

Be smart, if you see trouble, decide quickly if you want to be in the first wave of refunds or the second. *the second wave rarely gets their money back*

So don't take this "silence", make some waves and get answers. Be informed.

[nathanrees19]

Honesty is better than bullshit

By this logic, it's better to murder someone and confess than to pretend to murder someone.

[nathanrees19]

Think back to what happened with bASIC.

Yes, there you go, they collapsed because of delays

Wrong. They collapsed because Tom either scammed them or fucked up badly, leading to people refunding because people were refunding.

If delays were sufficient to cause a collapse, then BFL should logically have collapsed as well.

[PuertoLibre]

Think back to what happened with bASIC.

Yes, there you go, they collapsed because of delays

Wrong. They collapsed because Tom either scammed them or fucked up badly, leading to people refunding because people were refunding.

If delays were sufficient to cause a collapse, then BFL should logically have collapsed as well.

Idiot.

bASIC collapsed because everyone lost confidence and pulled their money out. Tom didn't show up to meetings and didn't provide enough details about where he was at any point.

This is the exact same scenario that happened with BFL up until recently. It was only recently that BFL fessed up to having a respin. You didn't know that until they told you about it. [in January 2013]

Many people with actual hardware experience speculated that a respin occurred but it didn't come from BFL until much later (think January).

BFL has delayed anywhere from 2x or 3x longer than bASIC did.

-----------------------

The only difference between bASIC and BFL is the fact that BFL has had more luck and inspired more confidence in customers. But BFL is up against the wall at this point (4 months after October 2012.)

They either provide a product or the same that happened to bASIC will happen again.

-------------------------

What cockamamey BS story you wrote up above is hardly the reason bASIC collapsed.

[crazyates]

Think back to what happened with bASIC.

Yes, there you go, they collapsed because of delays

Wrong. They collapsed because Tom either scammed them or fucked up badly, leading to people refunding because people were refunding.

If delays were sufficient to cause a collapse, then BFL should logically have collapsed as well.

bASIC collapsed because everyone lost confidence and pulled their money out. Tom didn't show up to meetings and didn't provide enough details about where he was at any point.

This is the exact same scenario that happened with BFL up until recently. It was only recently that BFL fessed up to having a respin. You didn't know that until they told you about it. [in January 2013]

bASIC did not collapse because of delays. Nor did bASIC collapse because of refunds. Yes, bASIC went out of business because of refunds, but the collapse came from Tom and his royal fuckery. You said it right here:

bASIC collapsed because everyone lost confidence

Why did everyone lose confidence? It was not just the delays. Tom started off with excellent communication, but by the end, he wasn't saying two words, even when asked point-blank. There was no proof of boards or chips anywhere, and people were suspicious. He locked his forums. He stopped honoring refunds.

Does any of that sounds like BFL? BFL's communication concerning chip development and finally shipping has been vastly improved over the past month. I'm sorry Josh isn't nicer to you, but he does give information to us customers willingly. They have dozens of pictures of their boards on their website, and the android mining software development. I don't see their forums locked down. I see them still honoring refunds. And I'm much more comfortable giving my money to a registered company, and not some guy in NY who can run off with people's BTC. Funny how you're the only person not seeing these differences.

[MrTeal]

bASIC collapsed long before people pulled their money out and it because apparent that no one would get paid. People just weren't aware of it at the time.

The entire idea that Tom had wafers in fab that he just couldn't make the final payments for because everyone needed refunds is laughable, especially when he's concurrently stating he was offered the financing to finish it but he decided against it because he was butthurt about how the community was mean to him. Regardless of where you sit on the failed business vs scam from the start debate, people asking for refunds was not the cause of the death of bASIC.

[nathanrees19]

Think back to what happened with bASIC.

Yes, there you go, they collapsed because of delays

Wrong. They collapsed because Tom either scammed them or fucked up badly, leading to people refunding because people were refunding.

Idiot.

bASIC collapsed because everyone lost confidence and pulled their money out. Tom didn't show up to meetings and didn't provide enough details about where he was at any point.

You just...you just repeated my points and called me an idiot for them....cannot....comprehend....the stupid...

[nathanrees19]

What cockamamey BS story you wrote up above is hardly the reason bASIC collapsed.

I guess you missed the HERP DERP DRUNKEN WALL OF TEXT ASIAN BENEFACTORS

I guess you missed the people saying "omg people are refunding? I BETTER GET REFUND!!!111"

[MooC Tals]

LOL Right...buying from BFL is so fucking "SMART".

How's that detracting by bringing in other vendor's fails working out for you to get attention off of BFL and on to others?

Fail again ...

You didn't answer any of my questions, or offer any valid arguments or counter-points. You simply repeated your stance that I'm trying to distract you from BFL's competitor's shortcomings. I'd like you to look thru this thread from top to bottom, and determine who started the comparison between BFL and their competitors, specifically their stance on refunds. Hint: it wasn't me.

After you've done that, I'd like you to come back and provide some sort of valid argument.

POINT: I would rather have a vendor be upfront from the get go (so that I do not have to guess what to expect from them), than to be lied to continuously from a company that will "Gaurantee" all preorder refunds, but yet at the same time CANT keep their word on a shipping timeline.[/b]

I choose the option where I don't have to guess. BFL just has too many signs of being a bullshit scam...from the Box of fans at CES to the insistent troll that is Josh_BFL/Inaba. Not to mention....Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar?.....

So you want a vendor that's upfront, where you don't have to guess. One that doesn't lie to you. Soo.... who is that?

According to you, it's not BFL cuz they can't ship on time. And you think they're a scam, which is your personal opinion, and can't be proved.

Well I don't think Avalon is your magic vendor either. They totally fucked up Batch #1 AND Batch #2 orders. They lied about the power figures. They didn't release any pictures until RIGHT before they started "shipping". They "shipped" a month ago, and almost no customers have any units. And then we have the no refunds thing.

So what's your solution? Obviously we can't buy from BFL, cuz they're terrible at deadlines. Obviously we can't order from Avalon, cuz it's a power hog, and their administrative efforts are non-existent.

I don't compare BFL to their competitors to distract you from BFL's shortcomings. I'm saying that contrary to your POINT, I still think they're the better option.

I dont have to do anything you want me to.

BFL are known liars...end of story. If you choose to put your faith into a business that lies to its customers then have at it.

If BFL is the better option then perhaps you should put your money where your mouth is and add even MORE to your risk of BFL preorders. Sell your house, car, wife, etc.

That would be fun and I would commend you for it as well as laugh at you. lol

Anyone remember the Blues Brothers "Hey how much for the women, The wife the kids, How much? Sell them to me? hahahaha"

[tvbcof]

... And I'm much more comfortable giving my money to a registered company, and not some guy in NY who can run off with people's BTC. ...

Never mind that the company is 'registered' because they bought the registry from some defunct lab in Colorado to save $100.  Something like that, right?

[Bicknellski]

Still misleading.

How do the keep forgetting to update the page? Is it me or are they doing it on purpose?

[Syke]

Still misleading.

How do the keep forgetting to update the page? Is it me or are they doing it on purpose?

Oh, they're not forgetting. They are updating their pages, but they leave the lies up on purpose.