Are Coinabul still operating?

[edd]

I cannot believe the logic Coinabul is using here.

The point of insurance is to ensure that Coinabul does not have any losses in the case where they need to re-send or refund an order. This has nothing to do with your customer except that he specifically asked for and payed extra for insurance. If my insurance company denied my claim for car repair after I already got it fixed, it isn't like I can tell the repair shop, "sorry, claim denied, I refuse to pay".

Coinabul is absolutely responsible, their insurance was inadequate or, at best, misrepresented for their packages and asking the customer to accept full responsibility for this is shocking.

That seems to be what happened. I'm just waiting for this to be moved to the scammers sub-forum.

This isn't a scam, it's just poor customer service. Coinabul is within their rights to deny responsibility for the loss unless someone can show evidence that this is a direct result of Coinabul's actions or covered under their terms and conditions.

[edd]

I cannot believe the logic Coinabul is using here.

The point of insurance is to ensure that Coinabul does not have any losses in the case where they need to re-send or refund an order. This has nothing to do with your customer except that he specifically asked for and payed extra for insurance. If my insurance company denied my claim for car repair after I already got it fixed, it isn't like I can tell the repair shop, "sorry, claim denied, I refuse to pay".

Coinabul is absolutely responsible, their insurance was inadequate or, at best, misrepresented for their packages and asking the customer to accept full responsibility for this is shocking.

That seems to be what happened. I'm just waiting for this to be moved to the scammers sub-forum.

This isn't a scam, it's just poor customer service. Coinabul is within their rights to deny responsibility for the loss unless someone can show evidence that this is a direct result of Coinabul's actions or covered under their terms and conditions.

If the buyer paid for insured shipping and it was not insured is that not a scam? They admitted they failed to insure it correctly.

I'm sorry, are you claiming that is was not insured or that it was insured incorrectly? I don't see Coinabul admitting either, in any case.

[shiftybugger]

I cannot believe the logic Coinabul is using here.

The point of insurance is to ensure that Coinabul does not have any losses in the case where they need to re-send or refund an order. This has nothing to do with your customer except that he specifically asked for and payed extra for insurance. If my insurance company denied my claim for car repair after I already got it fixed, it isn't like I can tell the repair shop, "sorry, claim denied, I refuse to pay".

Coinabul is absolutely responsible, their insurance was inadequate or, at best, misrepresented for their packages and asking the customer to accept full responsibility for this is shocking.

That seems to be what happened. I'm just waiting for this to be moved to the scammers sub-forum.

This isn't a scam, it's just poor customer service. Coinabul is within their rights to deny responsibility for the loss unless someone can show evidence that this is a direct result of Coinabul's actions or covered under their terms and conditions.

If the buyer paid for insured shipping and it was not insured is that not a scam? They admitted they failed to insure it correctly.

I'm sorry, are you claiming that is was not insured or that it was insured incorrectly? I don't see Coinabul admitting either, in any case.

It was insured. I paid a premium for insured shipping.

Coinabul claim they have changed their insurance arrangements so this won't happen again. This strongly suggests they were uninsured or underinsured. That I should eat the result of that is what is question.

[vampire]

I cannot believe the logic Coinabul is using here.

The point of insurance is to ensure that Coinabul does not have any losses in the case where they need to re-send or refund an order. This has nothing to do with your customer except that he specifically asked for and payed extra for insurance. If my insurance company denied my claim for car repair after I already got it fixed, it isn't like I can tell the repair shop, "sorry, claim denied, I refuse to pay".

Coinabul is absolutely responsible, their insurance was inadequate or, at best, misrepresented for their packages and asking the customer to accept full responsibility for this is shocking.

Looks like Coinabul simply didn't get the proper insurance (or any insurance) and responsible for the loss. It's about time to move this thread to the scammer subforum.

I am going to bet that Coinabul didn't check the terms of the insurance policy and fucked that one up. I could be wrong, but USPS doesn't cover gold/silver coins unless they're sent via Registered Mail.

[vampire]

Scam means we mislead. Scam means a trick. We did neither of those things. There also must be a gain. We gain nothing from this scenario. It sucks, we've apologized for it, but there isn't much we can do.

You can provide the proof of insurance and the letter of claim denial. Scam or not, unless you properly insured its your loss.

[evolve]

Watching this thread. Planned on buying from coinabul.

This thread isn't exactly inspiring confidence in them, though. 

[shiftybugger]

Scam means we mislead. Scam means a trick. We did neither of those things. There also must be a gain. We gain nothing from this scenario. It sucks, we've apologized for it, but there isn't much we can do.

You can provide the proof of insurance and the letter of claim denial. Scam or not, unless you properly insured its your loss.

I've been doing some more thinking and digging. According to Jay, the insurance claim was denied because the value of the goods had changed taking it across some arbitrary threshold such that their policy no longer covers it. This apparently caused the insurance company to deny a claim, not only for the replacement cost, but also for the original cost.

I don't know the name of the insurance company or policy, when the insurance was taken out on the item or when the claim was allegedly filed so I can't do any detailed digging, but I did have some thoughts:

- The insurance company obviously has something in their T&Cs which states that if the value of an item changes by a certain percent or value, then they won't cover it. Coinabul should reasonably have known about this.
- Silver is a volatile market. Coinabul should have reasonably expected the price of silver to fluctuate between taking out the insurance and a possible claim.
- The above two points together show that Coinabul could (and should) have reasonably taken steps to ensure that their insurance arrangements were adequate to cover market fluctuations, but was negligent in failing to do so.
- I could not have reasonably known about this or taken steps to avoid this, not being a party to the insurance contract or having access to the details of the contract.
- Coinabul, not I, have been negligent in this instance and should therefore be culpable.

That they have allegedly changed their insurance structure to avoid this only attests to their negligence in my case. I no longer think this is at the foot of the insurance company. It is clearly at the foot of Coinabul. This moves it firmly into scam territory. Coinabul mislead me to believe that my order would be sufficiently insured but failed to do so.

[zebedee]

Scam means we mislead. Scam means a trick. We did neither of those things. There also must be a gain. We gain nothing from this scenario. It sucks, we've apologized for it, but there isn't much we can do.

You can provide the proof of insurance and the letter of claim denial. Scam or not, unless you properly insured its your loss.

I've been doing some more thinking and digging. According to Jay, the insurance claim was denied because the value of the goods had changed taking it across some arbitrary threshold such that their policy no longer covers it. This apparently caused the insurance company to deny a claim, not only for the replacement cost, but also for the original cost.

I don't know the name of the insurance company or policy, when the insurance was taken out on the item or when the claim was allegedly filed so I can't do any detailed digging, but I did have some thoughts:

- The insurance company obviously has something in their T&Cs which states that if the value of an item changes by a certain percent or value, then they won't cover it. Coinabul should reasonably have known about this.
- Silver is a volatile market. Coinabul should have reasonably expected the price of silver to fluctuate between taking out the insurance and a possible claim.
- The above two points together show that Coinabul could (and should) have reasonably taken steps to ensure that their insurance arrangements were adequate to cover market fluctuations, but was negligent in failing to do so.
- I could not have reasonably known about this or taken steps to avoid this, not being a party to the insurance contract or having access to the details of the contract.
- Coinabul, not I, have been negligent in this instance and should therefore be culpable.

That they have allegedly changed their insurance structure to avoid this only attests to their negligence in my case. I no longer think this is at the foot of the insurance company. It is clearly at the foot of Coinabul. This moves it firmly into scam territory. Coinabul mislead me to believe that my order would be sufficiently insured but failed to do so.

It's hard to argue with anything you said.

[Gabi]

Let me understand: matthew open the thread for the famous pirate bet, no one send money, no one lose money and he get a "scammer" tag; he scammed exactly 0 bitcoins. Here someone PAID for something, DID NOT receive it, no scammer tag?

Guys seriously, something is totally wrong lol.

[John (John K.)]

Scam means we mislead. Scam means a trick. We did neither of those things. There also must be a gain. We gain nothing from this scenario. It sucks, we've apologized for it, but there isn't much we can do.

You can provide the proof of insurance and the letter of claim denial. Scam or not, unless you properly insured its your loss.

I've been doing some more thinking and digging. According to Jay, the insurance claim was denied because the value of the goods had changed taking it across some arbitrary threshold such that their policy no longer covers it. This apparently caused the insurance company to deny a claim, not only for the replacement cost, but also for the original cost.

I don't know the name of the insurance company or policy, when the insurance was taken out on the item or when the claim was allegedly filed so I can't do any detailed digging, but I did have some thoughts:

- The insurance company obviously has something in their T&Cs which states that if the value of an item changes by a certain percent or value, then they won't cover it. Coinabul should reasonably have known about this.
- Silver is a volatile market. Coinabul should have reasonably expected the price of silver to fluctuate between taking out the insurance and a possible claim.
- The above two points together show that Coinabul could (and should) have reasonably taken steps to ensure that their insurance arrangements were adequate to cover market fluctuations, but was negligent in failing to do so.
- I could not have reasonably known about this or taken steps to avoid this, not being a party to the insurance contract or having access to the details of the contract.
- Coinabul, not I, have been negligent in this instance and should therefore be culpable.

That they have allegedly changed their insurance structure to avoid this only attests to their negligence in my case. I no longer think this is at the foot of the insurance company. It is clearly at the foot of Coinabul. This moves it firmly into scam territory. Coinabul mislead me to believe that my order would be sufficiently insured but failed to do so.

This is quite reasonable and indeed the buyer is not of fault here. Watching this thread closely to see how it turns out.

[EngMan]

The funny thing is.....the only reason the significant value change happened is because coinabul took weeks to months to ship the order. Maybe if they shipped in timely manner....that would help. I'm in the US (like they are, and my last order took over a month to get here).

On a side note, i ordered a top-notch Alienware PC from Dell for around $5k. It shipped after 2 months but disappeared along the way. I paid for insured, expedited shipping but was told the insurance company wouldn't cover it, so I was sh*t outta luck and would get nothing. Normal occurance,huh? J/K none of the above happened....just an illustration of how crazy coinabul's actions are.

As to the scamming issue...coinabul did gain. They have the buyer's BTC (and who knows, maybe his metal too) and buyer got nothing....so yeah definite gain for scammer.

[shiftybugger]

Scam thread opened: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149253.0

[zebedee]

Scam thread opened: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149253.0

Their complete lack of reasonable response to this episode is very disappointing.  Presumably they don't intend to stick around long?

[vampire]

Their complete lack of reasonable response to this episode is very disappointing.  Presumably they don't intend to stick around long?

I have a feeling that they're a pretty small shop and they cannot take a few grand loss.

[deadweasel]

Coingenuity has fixed all issues.

Emails:  They are being tagged as spam by major providers because of keywords.  This is not ideal, but hard to get around.  As an IT guy, I know what a pain this can be.  Even if you get it fixed, it will take a long time for the filters to update.

Communication:  As soon as the staff wakes up, they handle the issues in order.  It may take 4-12 hours to get through all support emails.  But if you ask them for your invoice, they will send you a professional PDF of your purchase.  They also will update you with the shipping date.  

How much are they paying you?

I'm an IT guy too. No emails from Coinabul went to spam. I did receive some emails from them so I know they weren't being blocked.

They didn't handle issues with my order.

It's your mail provider blackhole-ing likely spam. Not spambox on the client end.

As for your order, we filed with the insurance company, they said no. We can't do anything more. I'm sorry.

-Jon

Was there anything special about this order or could this happen to anyone of your future customers?

The Insurance company decided to refuse his claim. Nothing we could do on our end to stop them. We've since then purchased different insurance because of their terrible refusal. It shouldn't happen again, but like any insurance company, they can on occasion deny claims.

So you admit and agree that the buyer just got shafted here because the insurance you picked failed you?

How do you know the second insurance company is better? What can you do to assure future potential customers that if you lose their gold they are not out of luck?

We picked a better insurance package. We've shipped thousands of packages. This is the only one that got lost and the insurance company denied. There will always be a bit of risk, but we do everything to minimize it. We don't like it happening either.

Since there is this risk and you are well aware of it you need to tell customers before they buy that they might not get what they buy.

If someone pays for insured shipment and they do not get it, you clearly did not insure it correctly. The buyer is not at fault for trusting you.

The gold industry is filled with fraud.

Not everyone who has health insurance has their claims filled. It's the same in this situation.

He pays me with the order I paid BTC for.  When it arrives, I will update.  If it does not, I will join your witch hunt with great zeal.

He also communicated with me on #bitcoin-assets.   I have rec'd a shipping confirmation email yesterday.  As it ships from within the states (I Believe) I should have it shortly.   

Feel free to PM me if you want any details.  I plan to review Coinabul once the purchase is complete.

Everything came through perfectly.  Well done, Coinabul.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Let me understand: matthew open the thread for the famous pirate bet, no one send money, no one lose money and he get a "scammer" tag; he scammed exactly 0 bitcoins. Here someone PAID for something, DID NOT receive it, no scammer tag?

Guys seriously, something is totally wrong lol. 

FTFY!

[thezerg]

Let me understand: matthew open the thread for the famous pirate bet, no one send money, no one lose money and he get a "scammer" tag; he scammed exactly 0 bitcoins. Here someone PAID for something, DID NOT receive it, no scammer tag?

Guys seriously, something is totally wrong lol.

But maybe he did receive it... that's the problem with no tracking to the destination.  We'll never know.  But the existing tracking proves that Coinabul (who I do not know and have never used BTW) sent him something and that it left the country.

I sell OSHW electronics and the low average price (1-2 BTC) makes it impossible to use a service like UPS or Fed-ex with door-to-door international tracking.  I tell my customers that they are responsible for losses once the item leaves my country, and offer door-to-door tracking which nobody ever chooses b/c it costs 1-2BTC itself.

Now offering and purchasing the insurance really confuses matters.  Was it clear that this insurance offering was a pass through to a 3rd party insurance provider?  Was there a whole legal document detailing the insurance policy that the buyer could have read?  If so, IMHO Coinabul can pass the buck of responsibility to that insurance provider (by supplying the name and claim number to the purchaser for follow up), or point to the legal document.

But the real morale to this story is don't ship something worth 80BTC without full tracking.  Its too damaging to your business when the customs officer keeps the goods or the customer claims it was not received.

[Elwar]

I sent an e-bay item to Brazil. The tracking showed "delivered" but the buyer claimed he never received it. He filed a claim with ebay and they refunded his money. I showed them the tracking number and that it showed "delivered" but that was not good enough for them, they said that they needed to see that it was delivered to the right person.

So I started a whole process with the USPS to go through their international shipping and through all of that...in the end, there were way too many steps for me to go through and life got more important than spending my days on the phone. So the guy likely got some free stuff. Such is life.

[Bitinvestor]

So the guy likely got some free stuff.

Or maybe not. I once ordered some stuff and it was delivered to another town and a guy named "Jimmy Hendrix" signed for it. Don't ask me why, I don't know. Thankfully the sender didn't quibble at all and just sent another parcel. This was in Europe. Brazil isn't known for their trustworthy postal system.

[dmatthewstewart]

yeah just a warning I never got my 2 bars of silver from coinabul some 6 months ago, or a refund on my 8btc paid... why ?? because the guy never paid customs and apparently the bars were returned to sender, but coinabul never repaid me the BTC or declared they recieved the bars back... a trusted friend of mine then told me to watch out for coinabul as the guy running it is a sly piece of work and skimps on anything and he was not surprised by my situation...

btw it took like 2 months for the guy to even send the bars in the first place.... if he ever did...

Does anyone have a physical location for where they are doing business from? I just ordered from them ( a small test order to see if they are legit) and they have not responded to my emails yet.

I really shouldve searched the forums first but the site looked legit and I had never heard anyone complaining about them. I talk to people in chats constantly and we always talk about what sites are no good or rip-offs. This site never came up as being bad.

Now Im starting to get worried. Especially since I lost a little over 1 btc on Instawallet recently I really dont want to lose anymore.