Account Farmers are the new Ponzis

[mexxer-2]

Coming to the topic, whats Ognasty's 1/2 BTC suggestion by the way? Didn't have the time to go through the whole thread, but it seems well accepted.

tl;dr pay 2BTC to get a special rank that can have a signature, everyone else either has super stripped down signature or none.

Ah, seems quite harsh and might lead to most of the users leaving. While it looks good on paper, it will mean loss of traffic and consequently ad revenue for the forum.

 Lets face it, more than 60% of the signed users are here for the signature payments and nearly 30% of the remaining are the FUD/Ad(KNC , the advertisement posts about some bullshit and the price drop FUD) spam, which feed off the 60% of the traffic which the sig campaigns bring. With the first gone, the latter will slowly disappear too, which might seem good at first but will most certainly either mean that this will result in either a notable sig-spam free community or a user devoid forum

Edit: For the record I get paid a fixed amount(like say Blazed) regardless of whether I post or not

[Lauda]

Ah, seems quite harsh and might lead to most of the users leaving.

Disagree. If you are here for the proper reasons, and not because you want to spam in every part of the forum that you're able to in order to acquire a small sum of money, you have no reason to leave. Even though I'm currently part of a Signature Campaign, I've been trying to get them removed and/or get spam heavily reduced for quite some time now. This forum does not need quantity, it needs quality.

[OgNasty]

Lets face it, more than 60% of the signed users are here for the signature payments and nearly 30% of the remaining are the FUD/Ad(KNC , the advertisement posts about some bullshit and the price drop FUD) spam, which feed off the 60% of the traffic which the sig campaigns bring. With the first gone, the latter will slowly disappear too, which might seem good at first but will most certainly either mean that this will result in either a notable sig-spam free community or a user devoid forum

Edit: For the record I get paid a fixed amount(like say Blazed) regardless of whether I post or not

That is the problem...  Is this a forum trying to make ad revenue with fraudulent traffic, or a hub of Bitcoin discussion and development?  Since it has been repeated time and again that this forum doesn't need money, I would say the latter.  I would also speculate that it is a very small group of people with an army of alts who benefit from the programs you mention.

[mexxer-2]

Ah, seems quite harsh and might lead to most of the users leaving.

Disagree. If you are here for the proper reasons, and not because you want to spam in every part of the forum that you're able to in order to acquire a small sum of money, you have no reason to leave. Even though I'm currently part of a Signature Campaign, I've been trying to get them removed and/or get spam heavily reduced for quite some time now. This forum does not need quantity, it needs quality.

Spam is also a strong word for posting word for posting in different sections of the forum. Would you call , say Knightdk(who I believe is someone after sho who puts effort in his posts) spamming ? While I agree there are still quite a few persistent multi-account sig farmers who keep abusing campaigns like Bitmixer or Yobit for that matter, for making a small sum of money. The quality of the forum has definitely increased and is being maintained for the last few months and the ones who start spamming are soon reported.

Edit:

Since it has been repeated time and again that this forum doesn't need money, I would say the latter.  I would also speculate that it is a very small group of people with an army of alts who benefit from the programs you mention.

While the forum doesn't need money from donators and such, it does need money to sustain the group of moderators, "pay" for the admins and the Global mods(who I believe have a higher "cut" from the ad revenue). As of right now, it is taking ~6 BTC to keep the forum going, per month

[suchmoon]

Coming to the topic, whats Ognasty's 1/2 BTC suggestion by the way? Didn't have the time to go through the whole thread, but it seems well accepted.

tl;dr pay 2BTC to get a special rank that can have a signature, everyone else either has super stripped down signature or none.

Ah, seems quite harsh and might lead to most of the users leaving. While it looks good on paper, it will mean loss of traffic and consequently ad revenue for the forum.

 Lets face it, more than 60% of the signed users are here for the signature payments and nearly 30% of the remaining are the FUD/Ad(KNC , the advertisement posts about some bullshit and the price drop FUD) spam, which feed off the 60% of the traffic which the sig campaigns bring. With the first gone, the latter will slowly disappear too, which might seem good at first but will most certainly either mean that this will result in either a notable sig-spam free community or a user devoid forum

Edit: For the record I get paid a fixed amount(like say Blazed) regardless of whether I post or not

The forum might die anyway if spam continues growing like this. Even though I'm not a big fan of OgNasty's pay-for-sig proposal I would still prefer to see it die trying to do something positive than just let it drown in spam.

[Lauda]

Spam is also a strong word for posting word for posting in different sections of the forum. Would you call , say Knightdk(who I believe is someone after sho who puts effort in his posts) spamming ?

You misunderstood my post; I have never define spam as posting in different sections of the forum. Re-read.

The quality of the forum has definitely increased and is being maintained for the last few months and the ones who start spamming are soon reported.

I strongly disagree.

it does need money to sustain the group of moderators, "pay" for the admins and the Global mods(who I believe have a higher "cut" from the ad revenue)

It doesn't really need that either, as moderators are not on any sort of 'payroll'.

[mexxer-2]

You misunderstood my post; I have never defined spam as posting in different sections of the forum. Re-read.

you want to spam in every part of the forum

Well they both seem the same.

The quality of the forum has definitely increased and is being maintained for the last few months and the ones who start spamming are soon reported.

I strongly disagree.

Well I can disagree with your disagreement for no reason at all, I believe you do have a reason (or stats to prove so) to disagree

it does need money to sustain the group of moderators, "pay" for the admins and the Global mods(who I believe have a higher "cut" from the ad revenue)

It doesn't really need that either, as moderators are not on any sort of 'payroll'.

Sure the first few months mods will try seeming as if they don't need the share of payments per reports they handle, then they will surely slack off as they are not getting any reward for the unthanked job that they have to do. As for the statement that mods aren't paid or more specifically aren't "on a payroll" I believe you yourself likely receive more than 0.2 BTC(a significant amount) per month, not that I'm complaining as you do deserve the share for the constant spam-handling you do

The forum might die anyway if spam continues growing like this. Even though I'm not a big fan of OgNasty's pay-for-sig proposal I would still prefer to see it die trying to do something positive than just let it drown in spam.

I don't know honestly, I haven't seem extreme cases of spam going unnoticed by the forum. IMHO, its dramatic stuff even for me

[Lauda]

you want to spam in every part of the forum

Well they both seem the same.

That is out of context. The sentence states that if you have not joined with an intent to spam everywhere for money, you will have no reason to leave if we don't have signatures.

Well I can disagree with your disagreement for no reason at all, I believe you do have a reason (or stats to prove so) to disagree

I don't have time to gather stats; and the question would be what kind of stats are appropriate for this? The statement was made due to the impression that I have due to reading a lot while posting in addition to reading a lot more when handling reports.

Sure the first few months mods will try seeming as if they don't need the share of payments per reports they handle, then they will surely slack off as they are not getting any reward for the unthanked job that they have to do.

I don't think that is the case. Example: Global moderators tend to earn quite a lot when they're active, yet sometimes they are very inactive (a month or longer). They would not do that if money was a priority.

I believe you yourself likely receive more than 0.2 BTC(a significant amount) per month

Even though I'd consider that a small amount (no idea why 90$ would be significant) of money, your statement is correct.

[Your Point Is Invalid]

Does anyone know when signature campaigns started? I want to compile some stats and make some graphs

[mexxer-2]

Does anyone know when signature campaigns started? I want to compile some stats and make some graphs

TF the scammer started it all AFAIK


Edit: According to him it was not, apparently Butterfly labs was the first one: Here. Can't be sure

Edit 2: Aaaanyways, think this might be one of those topics which get a lot of opinions and contradictions etc, but end up in no way actually changing things. Don't think any more posts to argue further will prove Lauda wrong, the cat never loses the logic battles

[Lauda]

Does anyone know when signature campaigns started? I want to compile some stats and make some graphs

The first one that I was in (I think) was Inputs.io in 2013. But:

According to him it was not, apparently Butterfly labs was the first one: Here. Can't be sure

You'd need to do more research to determine, but Inputs.io would be a nice starting point (I don't think your analysis would be much affected if there was a campaign or two before).

Edit 2: Aaaanyways, think this might be one of those topics which get a lot of opinions and contradictions etc, but end up in no way actually changing things.

I like OgNasty's suggestions though; they're new. It now comes down to making the administration notice the thread and waiting for feedback.

Don't think any more posts to argue further will prove Lauda wrong, the cat never loses the logic battles

Beat the Cat, you can not!

[Your Point Is Invalid]

other implementations I think are needed? Is to NOT allow TOR, VPN's or PROXIES in the MARKETPLACE section of Bitcointalk.org at all unless you're a MOD / DT1 / DT2 Member or whatever. This section is the scammiest and most dangerous section of the site IMO and by not allowing these would deter most scammers, and spammers even for that matter. Because their legitimate IP's would be visible by theymos and whoever else is allowed access to that information. The FAKE sales of accounts, the scams, etc... I believe would dramatically reduce within the first day of this implementation.

Why would the forum ban tor users from the marketplace? That means I will have to be forced to put my public IP at risk just to buy a giftcard?

Its not like tor helps scammers, how often do we catch scammers around here by using their IP address?

A few days ago I made an account on tor and I had to pay something north of 0.2BTC to unlock the account, are you saying even though tor users are forced to pay a fee ( a quite big one), they shouldnt be allowed to post in the marketplace section?

Also, even if members using tor cant post threads in the marketplace you know that alot of deals go through with using just PMs right?

Also, wouldnt they just make a post in a wrong section, have someone report it, and then the mods will move it to marketplace?

Nothing will get reduced, do you honestly beleive that theymos would release the IP addresses of scammers?

Believe it or not, most people dont trust the forum with their IP
The forum has been hacked a few times

[Operatr]

other implementations I think are needed? Is to NOT allow TOR, VPN's or PROXIES in the MARKETPLACE section of Bitcointalk.org at all unless you're a MOD / DT1 / DT2 Member or whatever. This section is the scammiest and most dangerous section of the site IMO and by not allowing these would deter most scammers, and spammers even for that matter. Because their legitimate IP's would be visible by theymos and whoever else is allowed access to that information. The FAKE sales of accounts, the scams, etc... I believe would dramatically reduce within the first day of this implementation.

Why would the forum ban tor users from the marketplace? That means I will have to be forced to put my public IP at risk just to buy a giftcard?

Its not like tor helps scammers, how often do we catch scammers around here by using their IP address?

A few days ago I made an account on tor and I had to pay something north of 0.2BTC to unlock the account, are you saying even though tor users are forced to pay a fee ( a quite big one), they shouldnt be allowed to post in the marketplace section?

Also, even if members using tor cant post threads in the marketplace you know that alot of deals go through with using just PMs right?

Also, wouldnt they just make a post in a wrong section, have someone report it, and then the mods will move it to marketplace?

Nothing will get reduced, do you honestly beleive that theymos would release the IP addresses of scammers?

Believe it or not, most people dont trust the forum with their IP
The forum has been hacked a few times

I was just suggesting to ban TOR / VPN's / Proxies in the MARKETPLACE ONLY as a deterrent to Scammers mainly, but IN ADDITION it would give Theymos and Admins the ability to ban these SCAMMER IP addresses, so I was NOT suggesting they should be released publicly... BUT! IF that ban was implemented in the marketplace? SCAMS & FRAUD WOULD BE REDUCED BIG TIME I BELIEVE! There are a ton of Scammers here that would never even TRY to pull some of the crap they pull without the protection of TOR a VPN or a PROXY at their disposal and YES I understand DEALS go through via PM, but again it seems (again IMO) that MOST scams (not legitimate deals) are STARTED in the marketplace. Again, I was just adding my 2 cents, nothing more. 

P.S. I had NO IDEA the forum charged a 0.2 BTC fee to use TOR, so my bad on that one, that INDEED is a pretty hefty fee. 

[aardvark15]

What about a very simple solution such as not allowing signature space until an account is 1 year old.  If you put a time limit on it rather than an activity limit, then there would be no incentive to spam (until the year is complete).  If a year sounds too long, it could be 6 months.  I think this could deter people that don't want to wait to get a signature.

[achow101]

What about a very simple solution such as not allowing signature space until an account is 1 year old.  If you put a time limit on it rather than an activity limit, then there would be no incentive to spam (until the year is complete).  If a year sounds too long, it could be 6 months.  I think this could deter people that don't want to wait to get a signature.

They would just buy an account that is older than one year and spam on that.


Here's an idea that could work but probably won't happen because of the complexity:

In order to have a signature, an account must be, say, at least full member and the user must give 2BTC to the forum. However, instead of that 2BTC being a donation, it would rather be a security deposit. After the user posts at least 1000 posts over the course of two years, he can get 1.5BTC back, the remaining 0.5BTC becoming a donation. However, in order to get that 1.5BTC back, the user must also not have more than 25 posts deleted over the two years, and no more than 10 instances where more than 20 posts are made in a twenty four hour period. He must also never receive a ban within those two years. Only when these requirements are met can the user receive the 1.5BTC back.

I think this would work to reduce spam, increase the constructiveness of posts, and also maintain traffic for the forum. Users are incentivized to stick around for a few years, and post constructively in order to get their money back.

[aardvark15]

What about a very simple solution such as not allowing signature space until an account is 1 year old.  If you put a time limit on it rather than an activity limit, then there would be no incentive to spam (until the year is complete).  If a year sounds too long, it could be 6 months.  I think this could deter people that don't want to wait to get a signature.

They would just buy an account that is older than one year and spam on that.

True, but there would be fewer accounts that are over a year old and they would cost more.

[Lutpin]

True, but there would be fewer accounts that are over a year old and they would cost more.

With over 800k accounts currently, even when taking off those that are either lost (due to the owner leaving), will never be sold or those that are banned,
aswell as those that are not (yet) at the age restriction you want to implement, that is hardly a limit to the market.

[Evildrum]

If you want to ding people for spam it should be only fair that older accounts have all their sock puppet accounts tagged as such, otherwise we are dealing with a situation where you are going after people that are late to bitcoin well also allowing them to be mislead by multi accounts.
Having seen people like Luptin leave three word responses and a person with a signature leave quality responses and be accused of spam aslo seems out of wack. Not a personal attack just a obvious member all would know. Its stating you can put little effort into posting as long as you are positioned properly without a signature. Some serious double standards. The lot getting giddy over clamping down are never happy either with one issue! We eliminate signatures and you will reap what you so desire, but I honestly do not think the outcome will be what you expect.
Notice how few signature members are in this thread! Is it because you are right about all of them spamming or more sinister in not wanting to become a target of the chosen elite? Sadly we know the truth and this discussion like those before it will turn into a closed circle jerk for like minds to scream bloody murder at members of the forum.
Signatures this forums version of a red door?

[Your Point Is Invalid]

If you want to ding people for spam it should be only fair that older accounts have all their sock puppet accounts tagged as such, otherwise we are dealing with a situation where you are going after people that are late to bitcoin well also allowing them to be mislead by multi accounts.
Having seen people like Luptin leave three word responses and a person with a signature leave quality responses and be accused of spam aslo seems out of wack. Not a personal attack just a obvious member all would know. Its stating you can put little effort into posting as long as you are positioned properly without a signature. Some serious double standards. The lot getting giddy over clamping down are never happy either with one issue! We eliminate signatures and you will reap what you so desire, but I honestly do not think the outcome will be what you expect.
Notice how few signature members are in this thread! Is it because you are right about all of them spamming or more sinister in not wanting to become a target of the chosen elite? Sadly we know the truth and this discussion like those before it will turn into a closed circle jerk for like minds to scream bloody murder at members of the forum.
Signatures this forums version of a red door?

No double standards here, I've had 4 posts deleted in the last 24 hours and I'm not in any campaign, what some sig spammers try to do is make long pointless speeches when you can answer questions and reply to stuff in one sentence, I personally find that annoying. Few signature members are in this thread because this is an intelligent discussion, those that can actually understand what we are saying here know that they are guilty and are staying away.

[Evildrum]

Think it is a mix of both and not leaning to far on either side to be fair in addressing why sigs are staying clear. I reference the ponzi issue as it was the last issue and I saw people apolgize out of fear rather then thinking they where right or wrong.
Believe the same applies here and you yourself blew me off by saying some signature users write to much. I read that as go away, am I right?
Would validate my point if so.