[BitFunder] Ziggap Bitcoin Sales Service

[Ukyo]

There was a mistake in numbers.

10m + 5m = 15m have been released to the public.

Another 22.5m (+15m = 32.5m) will be released to the public at a later date.

2.5m will be maintained by ZigGap for for for growth and maintenance purposes.

The remaining 15m is retained by employees as salaries.

I see another mistake here: 22.5m + 15m = 37.5m (not 32.5m as you say)

So, not remaining 15m as salaries but only 10m

Also I didnt see before nothing about being retained 10m shares as salaries (is this first news ?)

There was a math mistake on my part. I was talking with Aethero on IRC and he copied and pasted that.

Should be 17.5 more will be released. And it would be 15m shares, not 10m as salary.

Basically, the agreement should be that 32.5m of 50m would be sold off to bring in funds needed to grow and expand the company.
Another 2.5m would be held by the company to continue expansion as long as it's needed.
The remaining 15m are paid out as salaries. "No salaries will be paid as an expense, and are only paid as dividend payments."

The 15m shares are salary compensation by the company for prior investments/work/time put into the company, as well as covering all future salaries needed to operate the company. That is how I understand it is supposed to work.

With the 17.5m being delayed, my understanding is that any profits maintained by those shares will be held by the company and used for growth and maintenance until they are sold. I believe that those funds will be treated the same as for the 2.5m shares, in which should they not be needed, will be dispersed among the remaining shares.

[ZIGGAP]

This is correct


-aethero

[molecular]

Due to some members of the community voicing their opinions of ZigGap's reputation, a decision was made to postpone the
release of the last 7.5 million shares until we feel the community has accepted ZigGap, and that we have further proven ourselves.

I feel this is a very good decision.

How are you going to decide on the price once the time has come?

I made some rough calculations (based on a share-price of 0.0001 BTC/share):

Given you make a monthly profit of $1000 (conservative?), dividends are 0.62% per month, 7.44% p.a.
Given you make a monthly profit of $2000 (optimistic?), dividends are 1.24% per month, 15.9% p.a.
Given you make a monthly profit of $3000 (very optimistic?), dividends are 1.86% per month, 24.7% p.a.
Given you make a monthly profit of $5000 (ultra-optimistic?), dividends are 3.1% per month, 44.25% p.a.

This can be a good investment, even in bitcoin-terms.

What are your expectation of monthly profits?

I see you're updating current profits daily in bitfunder description. Are you going to keep doing that?

[ZIGGAP]

Due to some members of the community voicing their opinions of ZigGap's reputation, a decision was made to postpone the
release of the last 7.5 million shares until we feel the community has accepted ZigGap, and that we have further proven ourselves.

I feel this is a very good decision.

How are you going to decide on the price once the time has come?

I made some rough calculations (based on a share-price of 0.0001 BTC/share):

Given you make a monthly profit of $1000 (conservative?), dividends are 0.62% per month, 7.44% p.a.
Given you make a monthly profit of $2000 (optimistic?), dividends are 1.24% per month, 15.9% p.a.
Given you make a monthly profit of $3000 (very optimistic?), dividends are 1.86% per month, 24.7% p.a.
Given you make a monthly profit of $5000 (ultra-optimistic?), dividends are 3.1% per month, 44.25% p.a.

This can be a good investment, even in bitcoin-terms.

What are your expectation of monthly profits?

I see you're updating current profits daily in bitfunder description. Are you going to keep doing that?

Yes we plan to update this occasionally as time allows. I have made an update for today.

Gross numbers for the month of March. Cumulative:

Gross numbers for the month of March. Cumulative:

As of March 1st, 2013: 

Volume:
$4,002.34
Gross profit (after Bitcoin cost, before other expenses)
$134.73

-aethero

[velacreations]

when is the next planned dividend payment?

[Deprived]

when is the next planned dividend payment?

First planned dividend is start of April for March profits.

[velacreations]

First planned dividend is start of April for March profits.

thank you!

[molecular]

Due to some members of the community voicing their opinions of ZigGap's reputation, a decision was made to postpone the
release of the last 7.5 million shares until we feel the community has accepted ZigGap, and that we have further proven ourselves.

I feel this is a very good decision.

How are you going to decide on the price once the time has come?

I made some rough calculations (based on a share-price of 0.0001 BTC/share):

Given you make a monthly profit of $1000 (conservative?), dividends are 0.62% per month, 7.44% p.a.
Given you make a monthly profit of $2000 (optimistic?), dividends are 1.24% per month, 15.9% p.a.
Given you make a monthly profit of $3000 (very optimistic?), dividends are 1.86% per month, 24.7% p.a.
Given you make a monthly profit of $5000 (ultra-optimistic?), dividends are 3.1% per month, 44.25% p.a.

This can be a good investment, even in bitcoin-terms.

What are your expectation of monthly profits?

I see you're updating current profits daily in bitfunder description. Are you going to keep doing that?

Yes we plan to update this occasionally as time allows. I have made an update for today.

Gross numbers for the month of March. Cumulative:

As of March 1st, 2013: 

Volume:
$4,002.34
Gross profit (after Bitcoin cost, before other expenses)
$134.73

So this is the profit (before other expenses) for exactly 1 day?

How high are "other expenses"?

Even if these are $34 per day, this already puts us roughly into the "very optimistic" category from above with a sound 25%/year ROI.

[burnside]

So this is the profit (before other expenses) for exactly 1 day?

How high are "other expenses"?

Even if these are $34 per day, this already puts us roughly into the "very optimistic" category from above with a sound 25%/year ROI.

Definitely a promising start!

If I read correctly, I think the company is in the US and the books are USD.  Don't forget to include taxes in the calculations.  I think you'd have to find out the tax rate from the Ziggap folks, as it's an LLC and taxes pass through to the owners in most cases, thus making the rate dependent on their other income sources if any.

[Deprived]

So this is the profit (before other expenses) for exactly 1 day?

How high are "other expenses"?

Even if these are $34 per day, this already puts us roughly into the "very optimistic" category from above with a sound 25%/year ROI.

Definitely a promising start!

If I read correctly, I think the company is in the US and the books are USD.  Don't forget to include taxes in the calculations.  I think you'd have to find out the tax rate from the Ziggap folks, as it's an LLC and taxes pass through to the owners in most cases, thus making the rate dependent on their other income sources if any.

Depends to an extent how they're treating payments to investors for accounting purposes.  They can't treat them as dividends (or they'd be running an unlicensed security) but can they treat is as loan interest (which could be paid pre-tax)?  Or will it just have to be paid off the books (i.e. after taxes paid in full as though it were payment to them personally).

[ThickAsThieves]

Just to keep things honest, I assume that when the first month has passed, we'll also get a numbers showing the increased profit in BTC because you are converting your USD income to BTC regularly. This, of course, assumes BTC value rises a month from today...

[wisard]

I recommend a weekly dividend payment just so USD is converted to BTC much more frequently than once a month.

February saw the BTC value go from 20 to 33. Even if we don't expect BTC to appreciate by 13% per week, almost everyone over here is bullish about bitcoins. So converting USD to BTC at a higher frequency would be prudent.

[ThickAsThieves]

I recommend a weekly dividend payment just so USD is converted to BTC much more frequently than once a month.

February saw the BTC value go from 20 to 33. Even if we don't expect BTC to appreciate by 13% per week, almost everyone over here is bullish about bitcoins. So converting USD to BTC at a higher frequency would be prudent.

Agreed, aethero already seems to be keeping tabs daily, so a weekly payout wouldn't be out of line. It also make the stock that much more appealing, allowing for reinvestment regularly.

[Line]

I recommend a weekly dividend payment just so USD is converted to BTC much more frequently than once a month.

February saw the BTC value go from 20 to 33. Even if we don't expect BTC to appreciate by 13% per week, almost everyone over here is bullish about bitcoins. So converting USD to BTC at a higher frequency would be prudent.

I second/third this motion (yes I know we have no voting rights)

[dashteeb]

I'm so excited about Bitcoin I can hardly sleep.  So instead of sleeping last night, I was wondering if there was any value that ZigGap could add to the up-and-coming Bitcoin ATM industry.

I expect there will be several ATM manufacturers scrambling to come on line, and they'll need a good way of keeping their ATMs' USD and BTC inventories healthy.  Perhaps there is a role for ZigGap here?  Just something to think about instead of sleep

[burnside]

So this is the profit (before other expenses) for exactly 1 day?

How high are "other expenses"?

Even if these are $34 per day, this already puts us roughly into the "very optimistic" category from above with a sound 25%/year ROI.

Definitely a promising start!

If I read correctly, I think the company is in the US and the books are USD.  Don't forget to include taxes in the calculations.  I think you'd have to find out the tax rate from the Ziggap folks, as it's an LLC and taxes pass through to the owners in most cases, thus making the rate dependent on their other income sources if any.

Depends to an extent how they're treating payments to investors for accounting purposes.  They can't treat them as dividends (or they'd be running an unlicensed security) but can they treat is as loan interest (which could be paid pre-tax)?  Or will it just have to be paid off the books (i.e. after taxes paid in full as though it were payment to them personally).

Interesting spin.  Call it a loan with zero payment toward principal?  That would definitely be deductible.

[ZIGGAP]

Gross numbers for the month of March. Cumulative:

As of March 2nd, 2013:  

Volume:
$8,975.88
Gross profit (after Bitcoin cost, before other expenses, before taxes)
$302.45

We expect this to grow geometrically as we get new payment processors on board.

-aethero

[danieldaniel]

Guys.  A loan TO a business is not the same thing as FOR a business.

The btcjam loan was taken out by RYAN AND STORMY, to start ZIGGAP.  The loan was not taken out by ZigGap LLC, but by Ryan and Stormy.  They are two different legal entities, and therefore debt owed by (or to) one does not correlate to the other.  This it the purpose of an LLC.

[Deprived]

Guys.  A loan TO a business is not the same thing as FOR a business.

The btcjam loan was taken out by RYAN AND STORMY, to start ZIGGAP.  The loan was not taken out by ZigGap LLC, but by Ryan and Stormy.  They are two different legal entities, and therefore debt owed by (or to) one does not correlate to the other.  This it the purpose of an LLC.

Cool story bro.

Please point to where in the BTCJAM listing it indicates the loan is a personal one not to the business?  Do you notice that the account name taking it is out is ZIGGAP?  Do you notice that when asked what will happen if the business struggles he talks about what the BUSINESS will do not about what personal assets he has that would be realised to pay off the debt?

Do you notice it's listed as a business loan not a personal one?  Do you realise that if you go to a bank and ask for money to be loaned to you personally to invest in a business then it will be a personal loan not a business one?

Do you notice that earlier in this very thread he's stated he's assuming personal responsibility for the debt?  (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=146611.msg1562542#msg1562542)

Do you realise that you can't assume responsibility for something if you're already responsible for it?

Are you any closer to getting the point?

The debt was to the company but he's now taking on personal responsibility to pay it.  That was agreed (including by him) a page or so back.  So long as he repays it, that's end of story.  If he defaults then it gets messy - but if he defaults then it gets messy regardless of whose name the debt is in.  And there's no reason why he should default as he'll have what was left of the loaned capital to make repayments from until dividends kick in.

[Monster Tent]

Guys.  A loan TO a business is not the same thing as FOR a business.

The btcjam loan was taken out by RYAN AND STORMY, to start ZIGGAP.  The loan was not taken out by ZigGap LLC, but by Ryan and Stormy.  They are two different legal entities, and therefore debt owed by (or to) one does not correlate to the other.  This it the purpose of an LLC.

You are missing the point entirely. It was listed as a BUSINESS loan and the company name was used to infer that it was involved.

If it was a personal loan it is listed wrongly on the site and btcjam might want to move it.

The loan description is highly misleading.

Whether they pay the loan back is not the point people are making.