Official Gox / CoinLab Integration and Transition FAQ

[Raoul Duke]

None-US and Canadian Mt.Gox customers stays and will stays at Mt.Gox in Japan. This partnership (we did not sell anything) is ONLY for North America in order to speed up things there and help to the development of Mt.Gox.

So, you trying to use Coinlab in the US like you used your French company in Europe? Think the courts in the US may be nicer than in France?

[stillfire]

Can't see this obviously spelled out elsewhere...

What about non-US, non-Canadian Mt.Gox customers, do their records and day-to-day interaction with MtG stay in Japan, or is everything moving to California...?

Non-US/CA customers have no change at all. All data remains here.

How do I know if my account is considered a US/CA account or not? Is this determination based on the IP address used when you opened the account, the source of funding or something else?

[Herodes]

I take it that currently the US would have no jurisdiction to seize assets from a Japanese company, in Japan, but if those assets are now held in the US, by a US company does that not open up that kind of situation?

To my understanding USD is always held in the US, banks in Japan or any other country have holdings accounts with US banks, so if you have a currency account in another country, the USD still are in the US, it only appears to you they're not.

https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/?p=63

[MagicalTux]

So will my bitcoins be held in Japan or USA in a months time if I do nothing?

If you do nothing (ie. do not accept CoinLab's ToS on MtGox), then your funds are still held by MtGox Co. Ltd. in Japan (bitcoins and currencies).

How do I know if my account is considered a US/CA account or not? Is this determination based on the IP address used when you opened the account, the source of funding or something else?

We base this on various information, including source of funds and IP address. If you used Dwolla (which is only available to US customers) or if your bank reported you as a US citizen when sending funds to our bank, then you are automatically considered a US citizen.

If you ever connected only from the US, you are also considered a US citizen.

If you believe there was a mistake (ie. when we go live the site asks you to accept CoinLab's ToS), you will be provided an option to specify that you are not a US or CA citizen. Such cases will be reviewed case by case afterward so we can find out what went wrong.

Will the US government have the potential ability to immediately seize any of Mt Gox/Coinlab/Customers cash and/or bitcoins after this transition?

I take it that currently the US would have no jurisdiction to seize assets from a Japanese company, in Japan, but if those assets are now held in the US, by a US company does that not open up that kind of situation?

If the US government were to seize assets from Coinlab in the US, would Mt Gox still cover all customers' balances/deposits (including US customers)?

I do not believe having the funds held in the US would make any easier or more difficult for the US government to seize funds should it find a good reason to do it.

Please note that as you accept CoinLab's ToS, you are in direct contract with CoinLab and no longer with us. In even something would happen with CoinLab (which is unlikely), we would be unable to interfere directly.

[starsoccer9]

one questions i have is right now my account I just use for day trading and holding really, and dont plan to even do any bank wires. In this case would it be possible to keep it with mtgox even tho im in the US?

If I do have to be switched over to coinlab is documents and becoming verified a must, and if i dont become verifed what cant I do?

Right now my mtgox account is just for day trading and thats really it and I would prefer to just leave it like that without having to go through verification or anything

[Bitco]

Will the US government have the potential ability to immediately seize any of Mt Gox/Coinlab/Customers cash and/or bitcoins after this transition?

I take it that currently the US would have no jurisdiction to seize assets from a Japanese company, in Japan, but if those assets are now held in the US, by a US company does that not open up that kind of situation?

If the US government were to seize assets from Coinlab in the US, would Mt Gox still cover all customers' balances/deposits (including US customers)?

Since Mt Gox currently has a bank account with Dwolla, the US government has the potential ability to seize funds from there.

By closing their bank accounts in the US and sending US customers to CoinLab, Mt Gox shields themselves from legal action in the US.

[Serith]

If you believe there was a mistake (ie. when we go live the site asks you to accept CoinLab's ToS), you will be provided an option to specify that you are not a US or CA citizen. Such cases will be reviewed case by case afterward so we can find out what went wrong.

Are you going to forbid Canadian citizens from trading directly on MtGox?

[Mike Hearn]

We base this on various information, including source of funds and IP address. If you used Dwolla (which is only available to US customers) or if your bank reported you as a US citizen when sending funds to our bank, then you are automatically considered a US citizen.

Given your talk of citizenship rather than residence, would I be right in assuming FATCA was an element in this decision?

It sounds like US citizens who live outside the USA will not be able to trade on Mt Gox at all. Indeed I suspect no exchange that's sensible will take them

I am not such a person fortunately, but I feel sad for those who are.

[Serith]

We base this on various information, including source of funds and IP address. If you used Dwolla (which is only available to US customers) or if your bank reported you as a US citizen when sending funds to our bank, then you are automatically considered a US citizen.

Given your talk of citizenship rather than residence, would I be right in assuming FATCA was an element in this decision?

It sounds like US citizens who live outside the USA will not be able to trade on Mt Gox at all. Indeed I suspect no exchange that's sensible will take them

I am not such a person fortunately, but I feel sad for those who are.

That's what I think too, but it seems MtGox will also apply the same restrictions to Canadians, so I assume that Canadian customers were sold to Vess as a package deal.

[ArticMine]

We base this on various information, including source of funds and IP address. If you used Dwolla (which is only available to US customers) or if your bank reported you as a US citizen when sending funds to our bank, then you are automatically considered a US citizen.

Given your talk of citizenship rather than residence, would I be right in assuming FATCA was an element in this decision?

It sounds like US citizens who live outside the USA will not be able to trade on Mt Gox at all. Indeed I suspect no exchange that's sensible will take them

I am not such a person fortunately, but I feel sad for those who are.

That's what I think too, but it seems MtGox will also apply the same restrictions to Canadians, so I assume that Canadian customers were sold to Vess as a package deal.

Both Canada and Japan have way stricter privacy laws than the United States so I would not be surprised if a Japanese company denying service to Canadian customers because the latter choose not to waive their privacy rights to a level below that of both Canada and Japan is against the law in both Canada and Japan.

Treating Canada as the 51st state of the United States can open a huge legal can of worms here.

[repentance]

Both Canada and Japan have way stricter privacy laws than the United States so I would not be surprised if a Japanese company denying service to Canadian customers because the latter choose not to waive their privacy rights to a level below that of both Canada and Japan is against the law in both Canada and Japan.

You realise a private company can refuse to do business with you for pretty much any reason which doesn't violate human rights agreements?  They're well within their rights to stop servicing North American (or any other) customers, to change their ToS, to make all sorts of other changes you might not like.  Your remedy is not longer dealing with them if you don't agree to those changes.

[MagicalTux]

Both Canada and Japan have way stricter privacy laws than the United States so I would not be surprised if a Japanese company denying service to Canadian customers because the latter choose not to waive their privacy rights to a level below that of both Canada and Japan is against the law in both Canada and Japan.

You realise a private company can refuse to do business with you for pretty much any reason which doesn't violate human rights agreements?  They're well within their rights to stop servicing North American (or any other) customers, to change their ToS, to make all sorts of other changes you might not like.  Your remedy is not longer dealing with them if you don't agree to those changes.

Actually, US and Canada have many banking agreements and similar system, making it easy for a US entity to open an account in Canada or the other way around. It makes sense to handle both countries at the same time in order to reduce deposit/withdrawal fees at the same time.

[newtenberg]

Does anyone know what will happen with non-verified accounts?

[ArticMine]

Both Canada and Japan have way stricter privacy laws than the United States so I would not be surprised if a Japanese company denying service to Canadian customers because the latter choose not to waive their privacy rights to a level below that of both Canada and Japan is against the law in both Canada and Japan.

You realise a private company can refuse to do business with you for pretty much any reason which doesn't violate human rights agreements?  They're well within their rights to stop servicing North American (or any other) customers, to change their ToS, to make all sorts of other changes you might not like.  Your remedy is not longer dealing with them if you don't agree to those changes.

I do but a private company cannot amend their TOS in order to circumvent privacy laws for example and if they do violate privacy laws then in Canada and I suspect also in Japan my remedies go a lot further than just refusing to do business with them. In this situation we can easily have a Japanese company telling a Canadian citizen living in Canada that he has in effect to comply with a US law that does not apply to him in contravention of both Canadian and Japanese privacy laws in order to do business with them.

The key difference here is that while it is very likely perfectly legal and in fact a legal requirement for MtGox to force this on US citizens and residents, it does not follow at all that the same applies to Canadian citizens or for matter to citizens of countries other than the US living in Canada. The bottom line is that in this situation Canadian citizens and residents may well have way more rights then US citizens and residents.

[ArticMine]

Both Canada and Japan have way stricter privacy laws than the United States so I would not be surprised if a Japanese company denying service to Canadian customers because the latter choose not to waive their privacy rights to a level below that of both Canada and Japan is against the law in both Canada and Japan.

You realise a private company can refuse to do business with you for pretty much any reason which doesn't violate human rights agreements?  They're well within their rights to stop servicing North American (or any other) customers, to change their ToS, to make all sorts of other changes you might not like.  Your remedy is not longer dealing with them if you don't agree to those changes.

Actually, US and Canada have many banking agreements and similar system, making it easy for a US entity to open an account in Canada or the other way around. It makes sense to handle both countries at the same time in order to reduce deposit/withdrawal fees at the same time.

It is not that simple. Canada and the United States are very different countries with very different laws. In fact when it comes to opening an account with a Canadian financial institution I would not be surprised at all if a Japanese citizen or entity would have have a way less problems than a US citizen or entity. The reason, which I suspect is the same reason behind this deal, FACTA. In any event here is a list of questions I placed in another thread on the Canadian issue.

Some questions from the perspective of a Canadian MtGox customer.

1 ) What is the location of the assets held BTC and fiat held by MtGox on behalf of the customer Japan or the United States?
2 ) What is the location for tax purposes where the trades take place Japan or the United States. Furthermore which tax treaty will apply to the business relationship that between Canada and Japan or that between Canada and the United States?
3 ) Which country's privacy laws apply to personal information of the customer Japan or the United States?
4 ) Will the customer be required to change banking information for withdrawals already on file with MtGox?
5 ) Will a Canadian customer be able to continue to receive funds in US dollars into a US Dollar account with a Canadian bank?
6 ) Will the customer be required to provide an IRS form W-8?
7 ) Will withdrawal limits change as a result of this for Trusted and Verified customers?
8 ) Will there be any restrictions as a result of this for logging into MtGox by Trusted or Verified customers from outside of Canada and the United States for example while travelling?
9 ) Will USD on deposit benefit from FDIC pass through insurance?

and some more that I thought about later.

10) How will the Canadian dollar denominated MtGox accounts be impacted by this?
11) What measures if any has Coinlab to comply with Canadian financial laws and regulations. Has Coinlab completed any of the registrations required in Canada?
12) How familiar are the principals of Coinlab with Canada and its laws and regulations. Have any of them visited Canada?
13) How will Coinlab deal with the Canadian GST/HST?
14) Will Coinlab be providing service in French? This is a requirement in many parts of Canada

Welcome to Canada / Bienvenue au Canada

[Stephen Gornick]

Does anyone know what will happen with non-verified accounts?

Does this provide enough of an answer?

How do I know if my account is considered a US/CA account or not? Is this determination based on the IP address used when you opened the account, the source of funding or something else?

We base this on various information, including source of funds and IP address. If you used Dwolla (which is only available to US customers) or if your bank reported you as a US citizen when sending funds to our bank, then you are automatically considered a US citizen.

If you ever connected only from the US, you are also considered a US citizen.

So it appears it doesn't matter, verified account or not your account is moved over to Coinbase (if one or more of the above criteria matches).

[Monster Tent]

The US government is doing a great job at turning their country into the pariahs of the world. Forcing other countries to follow retarded laws because George Bush bombed the twin towers is something to be proud of too.

[MagicalTux]

It is not that simple. Canada and the United States are very different countries with very different laws. In fact when it comes to opening an account with a Canadian financial institution I would not be surprised at all if a Japanese citizen or entity would have have a way less problems than a US citizen or entity. The reason, which I suspect is the same reason behind this deal, FACTA. In any event here is a list of questions I placed in another thread on the Canadian issue.

Actually for a Japanese citizen or company, it is impossible to open a bank account in Canada, except if holding a Canadian visa or creating a Canadian subsidiary, while a US company can ask its bank to have a deposit method available in Canada and route transfers to Canada domestically.

Some questions from the perspective of a Canadian MtGox customer.

1 ) What is the location of the assets held BTC and fiat held by MtGox on behalf of the customer Japan or the United States?
2 ) What is the location for tax purposes where the trades take place Japan or the United States. Furthermore which tax treaty will apply to the business relationship that between Canada and Japan or that between Canada and the United States?
3 ) Which country's privacy laws apply to personal information of the customer Japan or the United States?
4 ) Will the customer be required to change banking information for withdrawals already on file with MtGox?
5 ) Will a Canadian customer be able to continue to receive funds in US dollars into a US Dollar account with a Canadian bank?
6 ) Will the customer be required to provide an IRS form W-8?
7 ) Will withdrawal limits change as a result of this for Trusted and Verified customers?
8 ) Will there be any restrictions as a result of this for logging into MtGox by Trusted or Verified customers from outside of Canada and the United States for example while travelling?
9 ) Will USD on deposit benefit from FDIC pass through insurance?

and some more that I thought about later.

10) How will the Canadian dollar denominated MtGox accounts be impacted by this?
11) What measures if any has Coinlab to comply with Canadian financial laws and regulations. Has Coinlab completed any of the registrations required in Canada?
12) How familiar are the principals of Coinlab with Canada and its laws and regulations. Have any of them visited Canada?
13) How will Coinlab deal with the Canadian GST/HST?
14) Will Coinlab be providing service in French? This is a requirement in many parts of Canada

Welcome to Canada / Bienvenue au Canada

1) For now all BTC assets are still held by MtGox Co. Ltd. in Japan. Already explained this earlier, but basically we are waiting for CoinLab to have a deposit handling system secure enough first.
2) It depends in which country you are located (ie. on you own country's tax laws). For more details please contact an accountant or lawyer in your own country.
3) For Canadian customers who accepted CoinLab's ToS, privacy policies will be those specified in there.
4) Customer withdrawal data will be ported, however customer has the option to ask for his banking information to be removed (by contacting the support) prior to transfer.
5) Of course
6) No idea, it depends on US and CA laws. I believe CoinLab will be able to answer that.
7) It depends on US implementation of FATF rules, which I believe are mostly similar to Japan. I believe CoinLab will be able to answer that.
8 ) Shouldn't.
9) I guess it should since CoinLab is registered as MSB, however I'll let CoinLab reply to this.
10) No impact unless the holder is either Canadian or American. Canadian and american customers will see their balance in USD and CAD ported over to CoinLab upon accepting the CoinLab ToS. Any balance in other currency will have to be closed and converted to one of CAD/USD/BTC.
11~14) I'll let CoinLab reply to this.

[ArticMine]

It is not that simple. Canada and the United States are very different countries with very different laws. In fact when it comes to opening an account with a Canadian financial institution I would not be surprised at all if a Japanese citizen or entity would have have a way less problems than a US citizen or entity. The reason, which I suspect is the same reason behind this deal, FACTA. In any event here is a list of questions I placed in another thread on the Canadian issue.

Actually for a Japanese citizen or company, it is impossible to open a bank account in Canada, except if holding a Canadian visa or creating a Canadian subsidiary, while a US company can ask its bank to have a deposit method available in Canada and route transfers to Canada domestically.

Some questions from the perspective of a Canadian MtGox customer.

1 ) What is the location of the assets held BTC and fiat held by MtGox on behalf of the customer Japan or the United States?
2 ) What is the location for tax purposes where the trades take place Japan or the United States. Furthermore which tax treaty will apply to the business relationship that between Canada and Japan or that between Canada and the United States?
3 ) Which country's privacy laws apply to personal information of the customer Japan or the United States?
4 ) Will the customer be required to change banking information for withdrawals already on file with MtGox?
5 ) Will a Canadian customer be able to continue to receive funds in US dollars into a US Dollar account with a Canadian bank?
6 ) Will the customer be required to provide an IRS form W-8?
7 ) Will withdrawal limits change as a result of this for Trusted and Verified customers?
8 ) Will there be any restrictions as a result of this for logging into MtGox by Trusted or Verified customers from outside of Canada and the United States for example while travelling?
9 ) Will USD on deposit benefit from FDIC pass through insurance?

and some more that I thought about later.

10) How will the Canadian dollar denominated MtGox accounts be impacted by this?
11) What measures if any has Coinlab to comply with Canadian financial laws and regulations. Has Coinlab completed any of the registrations required in Canada?
12) How familiar are the principals of Coinlab with Canada and its laws and regulations. Have any of them visited Canada?
13) How will Coinlab deal with the Canadian GST/HST?
14) Will Coinlab be providing service in French? This is a requirement in many parts of Canada

Welcome to Canada / Bienvenue au Canada

1) For now all BTC assets are still held by MtGox Co. Ltd. in Japan. Already explained this earlier, but basically we are waiting for CoinLab to have a deposit handling system secure enough first.
2) It depends in which country you are located (ie. on you own country's tax laws). For more details please contact an accountant or lawyer in your own country.
3) For Canadian customers who accepted CoinLab's ToS, privacy policies will be those specified in there.
4) Customer withdrawal data will be ported, however customer has the option to ask for his banking information to be removed (by contacting the support) prior to transfer.
5) Of course
6) No idea, it depends on US and CA laws. I believe CoinLab will be able to answer that.
7) It depends on US implementation of FATF rules, which I believe are mostly similar to Japan. I believe CoinLab will be able to answer that.
8 ) Shouldn't.
9) I guess it should since CoinLab is registered as MSB, however I'll let CoinLab reply to this.
10) No impact unless the holder is either Canadian or American. Canadian and american customers will see their balance in USD and CAD ported over to CoinLab upon accepting the CoinLab ToS. Any balance in other currency will have to be closed and converted to one of CAD/USD/BTC.
11~14) I'll let CoinLab reply to this.

Thank you for your answer. I also expect Coinlab to be able to answer this. There is one further question to you regarding 2). Yes of course it depends on Canada's tax laws, but it also depends on the tax treaty with the country where the entity I am dealing with is located. The first question my accountant or lawyer will ask me is: Is it Japan or the United States? So I must ask you this question again.

[MagicalTux]

Thank you for your answer. I also expect Coinlab to be able to answer this. There is one further question to you regarding 2). Yes of course it depends on Canada's tax laws, but it also depends on the tax treaty with the country where the entity I am dealing with is located. The first question my accountant or lawyer will ask me is: Is it Japan or the United States? So I must ask you this question again.

That's complex, because while you are currently dealing with MtGox Co. Ltd, a Japanese company, according to Japanese laws the trades do not happen in Japan. If you're in Canada, you're hitting our San Jose intermediate datacenter, which means that based on Japanese laws, trades happen there.