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Author Topic: Official Gox / CoinLab Integration and Transition FAQ  (Read 20576 times)
ArticMine
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March 04, 2013, 12:37:53 AM
 #101

Thank you for your answer. I also expect Coinlab to be able to answer this. There is one further question to you regarding 2). Yes of course it depends on Canada's tax laws, but it also depends on the tax treaty with the country where the entity I am dealing with is located. The first question my accountant or lawyer will ask me is: Is it Japan or the United States? So I must ask you this question again.

That's complex, because while you are currently dealing with MtGox Co. Ltd, a Japanese company, according to Japanese laws the trades do not happen in Japan. If you're in Canada, you're hitting our San Jose intermediate datacenter, which means that based on Japanese laws, trades happen there.

Thank you for clarifying this.

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
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March 04, 2013, 12:55:22 AM
 #102

MT, will you be inspecting/verifying CoinLab's security measures?
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March 04, 2013, 12:57:20 AM
 #103

MT, will you be inspecting/verifying CoinLab's security measures?

... and complicance with Canadian laws and regulations?

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
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March 04, 2013, 01:15:39 AM
 #104

MT, will you be inspecting/verifying CoinLab's security measures?

Actually people under CoinLab ToS will still be using mtgox.com and our system, just under a different contract.

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March 04, 2013, 01:27:29 AM
 #105

MT, will you be inspecting/verifying CoinLab's security measures?

... and complicance with Canadian laws and regulations?

How are they obliged to comply with Canadian laws and regulations if they're not operating in Canada?  Australia has some of the world's toughest privacy laws, but I can assure you that they aren't extra-territorial and a company not operating in Australia can't be forced to comply with them.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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March 04, 2013, 01:34:31 AM
 #106

MT, will you be inspecting/verifying CoinLab's security measures?

... and complicance with Canadian laws and regulations?

How are they obliged to comply with Canadian laws and regulations if they're not operating in Canada?  Australia has some of the world's toughest privacy laws, but I can assure you that they aren't extra-territorial and a company not operating in Australia can't be forced to comply with them.
IANAL

A Japanese company doing business in Canada is ulikely to get anywhere near the kind of scrutiny over privacy from Canadian regulators than US company will because Japan has way tougher privacy laws than the United States. In addition there is legislation in the United States that can put an US Company doing business in Canada in the near impossible position of having to break the US law or the Canadian privacy law. The PATRIOT act in the United States comes to mind. This is a well known issue in Canada that applies to a US company but not to a Japanese company.

There are many examples of US companies doing business in Canada being called to task over privacy by Canadian regulators. I would be very surprised that MtGox buy doing business in Australia is not subject to Australian privacy laws. The reality however from a practical sense is that if they follow Japanese privacy law they are unlikly to attract adverse attention from regulators is Australia. The same is not true for a US company.

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
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March 04, 2013, 03:54:29 AM
 #107


Actually for a Japanese citizen or company, it is impossible to open a bank account in Canada, except if holding a Canadian visa or creating a Canadian subsidiary, while a US company can ask its bank to have a deposit method available in Canada and route transfers to Canada domestically.


Your point regarding the banking transfers is well taken but I see it only as an interim solution. The reality is that in the long term the proper solution is to either setup a Canadian subsiduary or work with a Canadian partner since I doubt a US entity will have any better results in opening a Canadian bank account.  The danger I see here is that if this deal is for 10 years Canadians may as a result be relegated to less than optimal service since the opportunity of a Canadian partnership has been in effect eliminated for a decade. In short long term pain in exchange for a possible short term gain.  Nevertheless I am prepared to keep an open mind on the Canadian impacts of  this deal untill I see the responses from Coinlab.


Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
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March 04, 2013, 03:47:56 PM
 #108

Does anyone know what will happen with non-verified accounts?

Does this provide enough of an answer?

How do I know if my account is considered a US/CA account or not? Is this determination based on the IP address used when you opened the account, the source of funding or something else?

We base this on various information, including source of funds and IP address. If you used Dwolla (which is only available to US customers) or if your bank reported you as a US citizen when sending funds to our bank, then you are automatically considered a US citizen.

If you ever connected only from the US, you are also considered a US citizen.

So it appears it doesn't matter, verified account or not your account is moved over to Coinbase (if one or more of the above criteria matches).

Thank you sir.
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March 04, 2013, 04:12:55 PM
 #109

my 2 cents worth...from a think tanker

if Gox had any sense, coin lab as well

they would have 50% or their operation in JP and 50% in the next location


but each 50% be self contained, Ie can operate independently , but synchronize the results eg price/volumes

this because say what you like the regulatory regimes are different

however they are set up now appears to be working....no matter what they tell you it only takes on politician/executive officer or administrator or oversight to stuff you up.

to go all in to a new jurisdiction is asking to fail and cause big issues.....


why would they risk this being so well entrenched in Japan

further

not being in the USA or near and being in say JP or CNY or others is a natural buffer, as other countries allow things other countries crack down on for all sorts of reasons and often to frustrate the country cracking down for geo-political reasons/advantages/pressure.

Gox and OC are looking politically naive particularly if they are sure about the huge success of BT/Ripple etc. I see on BT coin foundation and Gox they are pretty light on think tank brains/geo political types....they need to beef up on this seriously, start ups pro's, lawyers, scientists, IT people, are not usually the best for this, nor have the time, mandate or background to think this through, a lawyer may come close if having done a lot of international law...

...I would stay in JP and also set up shop, albeit through holding companies and the like or even Intellectual Property licensing so the money is remitted to them for their systems + conditions of using IP eg how company must operate = transfer of money up (and distribute) and almost complete insulation, in china and vietnam, then you are NOT going to be taken down in any hurry by any western govt. I do not deny that this throws up other problems but more on that later




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March 04, 2013, 06:06:37 PM
 #110

...  I do not deny that this throws up other problems but more on that later

I, for one, will be greatly looking forward to it.

Your thoughts on pretty much all of the points you touched on in this post seem unusually close to my own.


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March 04, 2013, 11:19:04 PM
 #111

Ok next part

(I should be charging for this stuff)

Let be realistic CNY is a different social os, fraught with issues,

however, they are less likely to kill an enterprise that makes them money and gives the potential openings in emerging areas and outs they want.

See even when they do "kill them off" for political expediency, they will just be re-branded and quietly go on making money for the "owners" but therein is the rub

a company of any significance is going to have to sign up with local "officials", "companies", "soe" and know who to sign up with.

If you make any serious money, you may find your self offered a window seat and a portion of that money. IF you fight it (as one certain British chap did) they will take your operation...though with BTC they will be more reluctant to rely on entirely local staff to keep the money press rolling, and want foreigners to blame if it does not turn out as much money as the higher ups had promised/owe their higher up etc etc.

With BTC though you have an ideal vehicle on several fronts, you can keep a lot of your value/profit in BTC or you have to run very lean and cash out into other currency's to minimize the day when CNY govt/ses "takes" over an you get a window seat.

But who cares you have most of the value by drip feeding out, they will want to keep your operation going and at least have some of you their....meanwhile your JPY/Viet operation keeps going as normal if not even better, as you shift the bulk of the transaction through them, leaving at least some in the CNY outpost (if you have this much control left). You want the CNY operation to be alive even if you have to cut the profit their because it acts a anchor to other operations, this cost or dimisihed profit is properly an insurance premium in the Geo-poltical insurance market.

CNY demonstrated recently with FATCA they would politely, but publicly humiliate the US financial/legal/govt system, while the western client powers at least paid lip service to it (the reality is here the western powers will let the US kick a few doors down if it make the USA happy for domestic political expediency but will most likely find it "prohibitive" and counter productive follow the FATCA that closely)

Further while BTC/CRYPTO is miniscule CNY has diversified already to a breadbasket of currency, and are looking for every potential lever it can to quietly unload USD...pretty hard to do when you have X Trillion...but look at what btc/ripple may do....this will not be lost on CNY and they may even actively back it just in case it works out to get big enough...even if it remains small it will provide the more "important" government offices a means to diversify their interests.....

Now on to Vietnam, similar to CNY but no friend of CNY...enough said...an you only need somewhere to keep you stuff with an internet connection...(that's fast and hard to block)

back to JPY....a nightmare for the US to try and enforce anything at all or at least quickly and not always on the friendliest terms with regional neighbors

I would also probably look at Singapore.

Anyway...diversification of the machinery of the BTC/RIPPLE beast and it friends is a prudent decision, partricaully when you are clearly ensconced in JPY already.

Of course this could be a double feint here and Gox actually keeps everything quietly operating in JPY and is just making a lot of noise about going to new US friendly jurisdiction....one hopes so.

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March 04, 2013, 11:47:57 PM
 #112

Let be realistic CNY is a different social os, fraught with issues,

however, they are less likely to kill an enterprise that makes them money and gives the potential openings in emerging areas and outs they want.

Bitcoin is fully illegal in China, and our negotiations with the local government so far have been without success.

Either way let's be realistic here. Most of our customers are located in countries such as US, Europe and others. Running away to Vietnam or China would make it basically impossible for us to receive or send funds to anyone in those countries.

back to JPY....a nightmare for the US to try and enforce anything at all or at least quickly and not always on the friendliest terms with regional neighbors

Japanese government is friendly to US, and also implements things such as FACTA. Also the US government can pressure any bank worldwide by threatening of cutting them off USD. A bank in any country that can not transfer USD anymore is of no use to anyone. US government has been doing this so far to get accounts held by "terrorists" (people linked to North Korea, mafia, actual terrorists, etc) and while Bitcoin is still too small to get this kind of response, it's a good idea to stay friendly with the US govt. at this point and let Bitcoin grow and gain in legitimacy.


Anyway none of this advice is actually applicable as it would shut us from our customers, makes us unable to hold any USD and potentially limit our transfer solutions to non-conventional methods (liberty reserve, webmoney, etc...).

We are doing our best to see Bitcoin grow as an actual alternative to the existing system, but until Bitcoin is large enough to stand on its own, we need the current system to accept and support us.
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March 05, 2013, 12:56:55 AM
 #113

MT, will you be inspecting/verifying CoinLab's security measures?

... and complicance with Canadian laws and regulations?

How are they obliged to comply with Canadian laws and regulations if they're not operating in Canada?  Australia has some of the world's toughest privacy laws, but I can assure you that they aren't extra-territorial and a company not operating in Australia can't be forced to comply with them.

No Australia has very week privacy laws the HCA has ruled their is no tort of right of privacy, the fed legislation says the fed govt can collect information about you and give out information about you as long as you are aware or should have been aware this was going on. The have only privacy principles that are adhered to ad hoc. State legislation in nsw at least is a bit better to the extent

but by and large useless and un-enforcable

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March 05, 2013, 02:01:17 AM
 #114

...
Further while BTC/CRYPTO is miniscule CNY has diversified already to a breadbasket of currency, and are looking for every potential lever it can to quietly unload USD...pretty hard to do when you have X Trillion...but look at what btc/ripple may do....this will not be lost on CNY and they may even actively back it just in case it works out to get big enough...even if it remains small it will provide the more "important" government offices a means to diversify their interests.....
...

Talk about the 'audacity of hope.'  I'm not holding my breath for that one, but wouldn't it be cool!

In the here and now I think it does make sense to consider geopolitical competitions and how crypto-currencies might exploit them for protection and growth.  But at the end of the day, no government is really going to be very fond of them in the form which appeals to most of us so I continue to believe that a plan for out to deal with pretty full global animosity toward the solution is worth putting some thought into.

The Bitcoin Foundation and Mt.Gox/CoinLabs are well positioned to make nice with the Western powers and this will provide a huge propaganda value among other advantages.  So I hope they continue in this track and have the best of luck for as long as possible.  I also hope that we don't evolve to a point where the existence of the Bitcoin solution is predicated on acceptance by the Western powers whether it be friendly or passive.  If this happens I strongly suspect that it will be because the solution is being leveraged for the surveillance opportunities it presents.

I'm done spamming this thread, but would look forward to an OP which focuses on geopolitical considerations.

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March 05, 2013, 03:09:40 AM
 #115

Let be realistic CNY is a different social os, fraught with issues,

however, they are less likely to kill an enterprise that makes them money and gives the potential openings in emerging areas and outs they want.

Bitcoin is fully illegal in China, and our negotiations with the local government so far have been without success.

Either way let's be realistic here. Most of our customers are located in countries such as US, Europe and others. Running away to Vietnam or China would make it basically impossible for us to receive or send funds to anyone in those countries.

back to JPY....a nightmare for the US to try and enforce anything at all or at least quickly and not always on the friendliest terms with regional neighbors

Japanese government is friendly to US, and also implements things such as FACTA. Also the US government can pressure any bank worldwide by threatening of cutting them off USD. A bank in any country that can not transfer USD anymore is of no use to anyone. US government has been doing this so far to get accounts held by "terrorists" (people linked to North Korea, mafia, actual terrorists, etc) and while Bitcoin is still too small to get this kind of response, it's a good idea to stay friendly with the US govt. at this point and let Bitcoin grow and gain in legitimacy.


Anyway none of this advice is actually applicable as it would shut us from our customers, makes us unable to hold any USD and potentially limit our transfer solutions to non-conventional methods (liberty reserve, webmoney, etc...).

We are doing our best to see Bitcoin grow as an actual alternative to the existing system, but until Bitcoin is large enough to stand on its own, we need the current system to accept and support us.


Its "fully illegal" because there is a very specific way to approach things in china,  and its not by asking if it legal from some CNY govt dept in the first instance, you are almost always going to get a "no" because some relatively low level functionary (who got there by being conservative)...that first official rebuke acts like a red light to every other fiefdom in cny

You have to really know who to get your proposal seen by and it does not start by getting rulling's from govts

it starts in a much more sideaways manner by finding the right local quasi govt "company" to partner with, perhaps changing later...and then going from there, you would not even start out as $btc exchange but IT transaction consultancy.

and you wouldn't be doing it in manner to shut out anyone, if you set it up right....

anyhow...the scope of what your doing if you believe in what you are doing will come to fruition requires a lot more seeding and thought about where you backups and bases are...and the implications of what you are doing....you may force the hand of the people who can quickly shut you down.

sure it all "look" great going into the know USA/CAD western environment but that sthe genius of the system

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March 05, 2013, 04:01:38 AM
 #116

...  USA/CAD ...

It is USD not USA and it is as related to CAD as CNY is related to VND. Seriously just because two countries share a border it does not mean one can blindly just treat them as one.

It starts to get really tiresome sometimes when Canada is treated as if it were the 51st state of the United States.

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
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March 05, 2013, 04:17:13 AM
 #117

...  USA/CAD ...

It is USD not USA and it is as related to CAD as CNY is related to VND. Seriously just because two countries share a border it does not mean one can just blindly lump them together as one.

In spite of my promise to keep quit, I cannot let this one pass.  The Mt.Gox/CoinLabs goings-on are one of many examples which point to your being wrong.  I think you are blinded by hope.  Most Western countries are vassals of the US (almost by definition the of term 'Western' at this point) and Canada certainly so as a country well within our sphere of influence geographically and rich in resources.  Even New Zealand which has neither of these problems is demonstrably subjugated as evidenced by the Dotcom events.

I personally have some disagreement with the assertion that the US is the 'leader of the free world', but it's the term 'free' which I have issues with.  Not 'leader'.  If you don't believe me on this just pay attention to future events.


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March 05, 2013, 05:12:08 AM
 #118

...  USA/CAD ...

It is USD not USA and it is as related to CAD as CNY is related to VND. Seriously just because two countries share a border it does not mean one can just blindly lump them together as one.

In spite of my promise to keep quit, I cannot let this one pass.  The Mt.Gox/CoinLabs goings-on are one of many examples which point to your being wrong.  I think you are blinded by hope.  Most Western countries are vassals of the US (almost by definition the of term 'Western' at this point) and Canada certainly so as a country well within our sphere of influence geographically and rich in resources.  Even New Zealand which has neither of these problems is demonstrably subjugated as evidenced by the Dotcom events.

I personally have some disagreement with the assertion that the US is the 'leader of the free world', but it's the term 'free' which I have issues with.  Not 'leader'.  If you don't believe me on this just pay attention to future events.



Actually the Kim Dotcom case is a prefect example where the United States government already got rebuked by a court in Canada and their case is New Zealand is slowly falling apart. So it is actually turning into a case for the exact opposite. If anything the United States has already lost influence in New Zealand because of this. Ever wonder why Kim Dotcon is using a .co.nz domain for his new venture?

As for the MTGox / Coinlab deal let us wait and see what happens when it comes to the Canada portion.  

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
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March 05, 2013, 06:17:54 AM
 #119

...  USA/CAD ...

It is USD not USA and it is as related to CAD as CNY is related to VND. Seriously just because two countries share a border it does not mean one can blindly just treat them as one.

It starts to get really tiresome sometimes when Canada is treated as if it were the 51st state of the United States.

I humbly suggest you research the term client state

as >> tvbcof notes, influence is being lost by USA...why?...CNY on the rise...note news

[1] spratty's island claims VND/CNY/JPY [USA quite quiet about this]

[2] note encirclement of CNY BY USA

[3] rumblings about FLK when us will have to put pacific before FLK for UK who have no carrier right now.

Almost USA is sorta (very sorta) becoming what USSR was a massive spending machine on weapons, at the expense of domestic needs...though not yet to the same degree, because the investment infrastructure is vastly different.

The only real hope the USA has is some of the Boston boys took a really long view on CNY from 200 - 60 years back they saw a rise of china, and that's  a lot of what the rebuild Japan / extended Marshal plan was all about...its sorta bearing fruit for the US now as it has bases on CNY doorstep, but alot more debt than it expected in CNY ledger...at this stage....so it may only really succeed in shooting itself in the foot. Conversely CNY would like nothing more than to quietly unwind its position to the USD, and by quietly I mean while being able to choose thier own RMB level...due to domestic implications.



...  USA/CAD ...

It is USD not USA and it is as related to CAD as CNY is related to VND. Seriously just because two countries share a border it does not mean one can just blindly lump them together as one.

In spite of my promise to keep quit, I cannot let this one pass.  The Mt.Gox/CoinLabs goings-on are one of many examples which point to your being wrong.  I think you are blinded by hope.  Most Western countries are vassals of the US (almost by definition the of term 'Western' at this point) and Canada certainly so as a country well within our sphere of influence geographically and rich in resources.  Even New Zealand which has neither of these problems is demonstrably subjugated as evidenced by the Dotcom events.

I personally have some disagreement with the assertion that the US is the 'leader of the free world', but it's the term 'free' which I have issues with.  Not 'leader'.  If you don't believe me on this just pay attention to future events.



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March 05, 2013, 07:01:58 AM
 #120

Are the mt.gox yubikeys now junk?  Or can they be paired with coin lab now as well for affected users.
Will coin lab only be working with u.s. and can. Or if you like the service they provide and you're from elsewhere will we be able use it?  What about 0 balance accounts, are they going to be transferred as well?  What will the nature of coin labs and mt goxs relationship be? Is coin lab just a fund holder/deposit withdrawal wrapper/AML law compliance vehicle for u.s. and can. users while gox is still the engine under the hood or will coin lab be provided independant service offerings that overlap mt goxs such as trading?

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