Stateless societies and bitcoin

[BADecker]

Selling some knowledge.... But how?

That's what consultants are doing, and I've done it many times, in other fields from what we're talking here, though. I could write a guide about how and where to invest in real estate in Europe. I've already started that project actually. It's currently on hold, because of other priorities, but I hope to complete it this summer. Anyone interested?

But how do you invest in real estate in Europe without a citizenship of a country?

Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.

I thought you are a stateless person as Stateless ex-American Mike Gogulski currently living in Slovakia. Now I realize you are not. You have a citizenship from some country and also have a passport. And with this passport you can invest real estate in Europe. But in this thread we are talking about stateless people and usage of BTC as a stateless person like Mike Gogulski and some 10k other people. So you are not fitting in this category. But anyway thanks for your input and we are keen to listen your own experiences on the field of profitable real estate investment in the European region in another thread, maybe you can start one of it.

If a person has a birth certificate, the BC belongs to an artificial entity created by government at the time of his birth. This entity is a trust, essentially. This trust holds the passport. The person simply says that he is the trust/entity, and the ignorant authorities believe him. See http://www.abodia.com/ucc/.

[countryfree]

Selling some knowledge.... But how?

That's what consultants are doing, and I've done it many times, in other fields from what we're talking here, though. I could write a guide about how and where to invest in real estate in Europe. I've already started that project actually. It's currently on hold, because of other priorities, but I hope to complete it this summer. Anyone interested?

But how do you invest in real estate in Europe without a citizenship of a country?

Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.

However, there are people set up in many countries who will do it for you for a much smaller fee. Ever heard of the Panama Papers?

I suggest you find a picture of the Mossack Fonseca building in Panama. My little finger tells me that lawyers who have their offices in a great building like they have command very high fees.

Regarding stateless people, there are unfortunately millions of them in the world, and I'm very happy not to be one of them. BTC is totally useless to them, just like a microwave oven. I'm sure they've never heard of it.

[BADecker]

Selling some knowledge.... But how?

That's what consultants are doing, and I've done it many times, in other fields from what we're talking here, though. I could write a guide about how and where to invest in real estate in Europe. I've already started that project actually. It's currently on hold, because of other priorities, but I hope to complete it this summer. Anyone interested?

But how do you invest in real estate in Europe without a citizenship of a country?

Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.

However, there are people set up in many countries who will do it for you for a much smaller fee. Ever heard of the Panama Papers?

I suggest you find a picture of the Mossack Fonseca building in Panama. My little finger tells me that lawyers who have their offices in a great building like they have command very high fees.

Regarding stateless people, there are unfortunately millions of them in the world, and I'm very happy not to be one of them. BTC is totally useless to them, just like a microwave oven. I'm sure they've never heard of it.

They come in all sizes with all kinds of fees.   

[countryfree]

Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.

However, there are people set up in many countries who will do it for you for a much smaller fee. Ever heard of the Panama Papers?

I suggest you find a picture of the Mossack Fonseca building in Panama. My little finger tells me that lawyers who have their offices in a great building like they have command very high fees.

Regarding stateless people, there are unfortunately millions of them in the world, and I'm very happy not to be one of them. BTC is totally useless to them, just like a microwave oven. I'm sure they've never heard of it.

They come in all sizes with all kinds of fees.   

A trust is never cheap. You may also consider that you cannot do anything you want with one. In most European countries, it's impossible to buy a property under the name of some company in Panama, you 'll have to set up a local company with a known legal owner (who can be a lawyer).

[BADecker]

Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.

However, there are people set up in many countries who will do it for you for a much smaller fee. Ever heard of the Panama Papers?

I suggest you find a picture of the Mossack Fonseca building in Panama. My little finger tells me that lawyers who have their offices in a great building like they have command very high fees.

Regarding stateless people, there are unfortunately millions of them in the world, and I'm very happy not to be one of them. BTC is totally useless to them, just like a microwave oven. I'm sure they've never heard of it.

They come in all sizes with all kinds of fees.    

A trust is never cheap. You may also consider that you cannot do anything you want with one. In most European countries, it's impossible to buy a property under the name of some company in Panama, you 'll have to set up a local company with a known legal owner (who can be a lawyer).

In general, a trust is the cheapest thing in the world. For example. You go over to your girlfriend's place. She is fixing a snack in the kitchen, while you are tuning the game in on TV. She comes to you with a bag of cat food in her hands. She holds out the cat food to you and says, "Will you please feed Kitty while I am working in the kitchen?" You say, "Yes," and accept the cat food from her.

You have a simple, common law trust going. She is the creator. You are the trustee. Kitty is the beneficiary.

Now, all you need to do is write it all down, add some words to it that express not only the job at hand - feeding the cat - but all kinds of other things you can do in the "name" of the trust... like set up bank accounts, buy property, accept donations, you name it.

In civil law countries - like most of Europe - you need to know the law regarding some of the things that you can do. But in the U.K. (like in Canada and the U.S. and Australia) you can simply state that the trust is made under English Common Law predating 1800, and you can add anything to it that you want, as long as it does not intentionally speak to harm someone or damage his property. If the trust states that the creator and you are the only people that have anything to do with the trust, the trust is property of yours (proper to you) and the legal codes do not apply as long as you enforce the property rights of the trust against government if they come after you in the courts.

Simple as that. However, this does not mean that the banks have to honor the trust and set up a bank account in the name of the trust if you ask for it. But the trust can own a corporation or LLC which the banks WILL honor setting up accounts for.

Here is a copy of a simple, English Common Law trust. I suggest that you DON'T use it as is. If you are going to use it, read it through, and make it stronger by adding words that limit government's ability to attack it. For example, you might want to add the words somewhere, "It is the intent of the Creator and the Trustee that the income of this trust remain untaxed to the trust, trustee or the Beneficiary(ies)."

TWENTY YEAR REVERSIONARY SIMPLE TRUST

Date:                                              

TRUST AGREEMENT BETWEEN:

(Creator) Name:
Mailing Location:
City:
State:

and

(Trust) Name:
Mailing Location:
City:
State:
(Trustee) Name:

The creator hereby conveys, assigns, transfers, and delivers to the trustee the sum of One (1) United States Silver Dollar (Silver Eagle) and such other assets and property as now and in the future may be so transferred as described in Schedule A, attached hereto and made a part hereof, the receipt of which the Trustee hereby acknowledges, and to have to hold the said property, hereinafter called the Trust Estate, unto the Trustee in trust for the purposes and terms as set forth below.

   Beneficiary: This trust is established for the benefit of

INVESTMENT- MANAGEMENT: The Trustee, or its General manager assigns, shall invest and reinvest the Trust Estate in its discretion, without regard for any law prescribing or limiting the investment powers of fiduciaries, in any security, but not limited to Stocks, Commodities, Precious Metals, Mutual Funds, Real estate, Bank CD's and L/C's, Warehouse and Elevator Receipts, Stamps, Waybills, Options, Commercial Paper, Accounts Receivable, Royalty and Limited Partnership Interests, Copyrights, Patents, Requests Anticipated, etc.

PURCHASE AND SALE OF SECURITIES: Capital assets and securities may be purchased on the installment sales basis at the Trustee's discretion.  Commercial paper securities may be sold at any price, i.e. at, above or below cost at the sole discretion of the Trustee or its assigns. Investments may be HYPOTHECATED and loaned out, and Monies can be borrowed.

BANKING:  Regular checking, saving, thrift and other saving accounts may be opened, maintained, and closed at the discretion of the Trustee or its assigns.  The Trustee or its assigns may appoint third party bookkeepers to manage, deposit, and withdraw from said accounts.

FORMATION AND PROTECTION:  This trust is formed under English Common Law.

LEGAL STATUS AND VALIDITY:  The validity of this Trust is subject to the courts of its Situs.

DONORS AND SELLERS:  Anyone may donate assets to this Trust, and anyone may sell assets to this Trust.  Upon termination of this Trust the Trustee or its assigns shall pay to the Donors the then current value of their Donations, or to the Donor's Estate.  Settlers who have the right of first refusal under a Buy/Sell Agreement may exercise their rights at any time the Trust remains in operation or as long as the Trust's Successor remains in operation.

DISTRIBUTION AND TERMINATION:  The Trustee or its assigns shall distribute all net income to the Beneficiary or on its behalf for a period of twenty (20) years from the date of this agreement, at which time it may be renewed with a new Agreement.  It is the intent of the Creator and the Trustee to so renew unless stated by them otherwise.

POUR-OVER AUTHORITY:  For the purpose of renewing this Agreement, the assets of the existing Agreement may be "poured-over" into the Renewable Agreement by the Trustee.

LAW SUITS:  This Trust shall settle, compromise, pursue, and/or oppose law suits, fines, liens, levies, assessments, purported claims for debts, libel, etc. by both public and private parties and agencies.

TAXES:  The Trustee is to pay all properly due taxes and to file all properly due tax returns.  This Trust shall be properly operated as a "Simple Trust" and distributes all net income to its legal Beneficiary.

TRUSTEE WAGES:  The trust shall pay the Trustee "a reasonable wage".  A reasonable wage is defined as: payment of all of Trustee's expenses, including but not limited to, all living expenses.  Additional wages may also be provided for Trustee services.

OUTSIDE HELP AND ADVICE:  The Trustee or its assigns may utilize outside consultants, brokers, attorneys, accountants, appraisers, custodians, employees, independent contractors, and pay them compensation as the Trustee may deem advisable.

BONDS AND FEES:  The Trustee or its assigns may transfer, assign, mortgage, apply and remove liens on property, perfect title, and furnish copies of bills of sale, deeds, trust indentures, corporate charters, resolutions, and such other legal paperwork as may be necessary to effect legal change of ownership of real estate property.  Trustee may serve without Bond or Fees.

OWNERSHIP TITLE:  Title to assets may be held in the name of this Trust, the names of the Trustee or its assigns, in street name, or in bearer name.  Any monies received by an agent-nominee for and on behalf of this Trust shall not be considered to have been constructively received by said nominee-agent, but shall accrue solely for the benefit and legal ownership of this Trust.

TRUSTEE RESIGNATION OR DEPARTURE:  Should the Trustee resign, cease to exist, or depart for any reason, the successor Trustee shall be                                                                per schedule B of this agreement.

IRREVOCABLE:  This Trust is irrevocable and cannot be changed, revoked, or terminated of even blocked by the Creator, Trustee, or Beneficiary.  No other parties are legally associated.


IN WITNESS WHEREOF, said Creator and Trustee have hereto set their respective hands and Seals.

(CREATOR)

BY                                                                    DATE
Creator

(TRUSTEE)

BY                                                                    DATE
Trustee

[countryfree]

Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.

However, there are people set up in many countries who will do it for you for a much smaller fee. Ever heard of the Panama Papers?

I suggest you find a picture of the Mossack Fonseca building in Panama. My little finger tells me that lawyers who have their offices in a great building like they have command very high fees.

Regarding stateless people, there are unfortunately millions of them in the world, and I'm very happy not to be one of them. BTC is totally useless to them, just like a microwave oven. I'm sure they've never heard of it.

They come in all sizes with all kinds of fees.    

A trust is never cheap. You may also consider that you cannot do anything you want with one. In most European countries, it's impossible to buy a property under the name of some company in Panama, you 'll have to set up a local company with a known legal owner (who can be a lawyer).

In general, a trust is the cheapest thing in the world. For example. You go over to your girlfriend's place. She is fixing a snack in the kitchen, while you are tuning the game in on TV. She comes to you with a bag of cat food in her hands. She holds out the cat food to you and says, "Will you please feed Kitty while I am working in the kitchen?" You say, "Yes," and accept the cat food from her.

You have a simple, common law trust going. She is the creator. You are the trustee. Kitty is the beneficiary.

Now, all you need to do is write it all down, add some words to it that express not only the job at hand - feeding the cat - but all kinds of other things you can do in the "name" of the trust... like set up bank accounts, buy property, accept donations, you name it.

In civil law countries - like most of Europe - you need to know the law regarding some of the things that you can do. But in the U.K. (like in Canada and the U.S. and Australia) you can simply state that the trust is made under English Common Law predating 1800, and you can add anything to it that you want, as long as it does not intentionally speak to harm someone or damage his property. If the trust states that the creator and you are the only people that have anything to do with the trust, the trust is property of yours (proper to you) and the legal codes do not apply as long as you enforce the property rights of the trust against government if they come after you in the courts.

Simple as that. However, this does not mean that the banks have to honor the trust and set up a bank account in the name of the trust if you ask for it. But the trust can own a corporation or LLC which the banks WILL honor setting up accounts for.

Here is a copy of a simple, English Common Law trust. I suggest that you DON'T use it as is. If you are going to use it, read it through, and make it stronger by adding words that limit government's ability to attack it. For example, you might want to add the words somewhere, "It is the intent of the Creator and the Trustee that the income of this trust remain untaxed to the trust, trustee or the Beneficiary(ies)."

TWENTY YEAR REVERSIONARY SIMPLE TRUST

Date:                                              

TRUST AGREEMENT BETWEEN:

(Creator) Name:
Mailing Location:
City:
State:

and

(Trust) Name:
Mailing Location:
City:
State:
(Trustee) Name:

The creator hereby conveys, assigns, transfers, and delivers to the trustee the sum of One (1) United States Silver Dollar (Silver Eagle) and such other assets and property as now and in the future may be so transferred as described in Schedule A, attached hereto and made a part hereof, the receipt of which the Trustee hereby acknowledges, and to have to hold the said property, hereinafter called the Trust Estate, unto the Trustee in trust for the purposes and terms as set forth below.

   Beneficiary: This trust is established for the benefit of

INVESTMENT- MANAGEMENT: The Trustee, or its General manager assigns, shall invest and reinvest the Trust Estate in its discretion, without regard for any law prescribing or limiting the investment powers of fiduciaries, in any security, but not limited to Stocks, Commodities, Precious Metals, Mutual Funds, Real estate, Bank CD's and L/C's, Warehouse and Elevator Receipts, Stamps, Waybills, Options, Commercial Paper, Accounts Receivable, Royalty and Limited Partnership Interests, Copyrights, Patents, Requests Anticipated, etc.

PURCHASE AND SALE OF SECURITIES: Capital assets and securities may be purchased on the installment sales basis at the Trustee's discretion.  Commercial paper securities may be sold at any price, i.e. at, above or below cost at the sole discretion of the Trustee or its assigns. Investments may be HYPOTHECATED and loaned out, and Monies can be borrowed.

BANKING:  Regular checking, saving, thrift and other saving accounts may be opened, maintained, and closed at the discretion of the Trustee or its assigns.  The Trustee or its assigns may appoint third party bookkeepers to manage, deposit, and withdraw from said accounts.

FORMATION AND PROTECTION:  This trust is formed under English Common Law.

LEGAL STATUS AND VALIDITY:  The validity of this Trust is subject to the courts of its Situs.

DONORS AND SELLERS:  Anyone may donate assets to this Trust, and anyone may sell assets to this Trust.  Upon termination of this Trust the Trustee or its assigns shall pay to the Donors the then current value of their Donations, or to the Donor's Estate.  Settlers who have the right of first refusal under a Buy/Sell Agreement may exercise their rights at any time the Trust remains in operation or as long as the Trust's Successor remains in operation.

DISTRIBUTION AND TERMINATION:  The Trustee or its assigns shall distribute all net income to the Beneficiary or on its behalf for a period of twenty (20) years from the date of this agreement, at which time it may be renewed with a new Agreement.  It is the intent of the Creator and the Trustee to so renew unless stated by them otherwise.

POUR-OVER AUTHORITY:  For the purpose of renewing this Agreement, the assets of the existing Agreement may be "poured-over" into the Renewable Agreement by the Trustee.

LAW SUITS:  This Trust shall settle, compromise, pursue, and/or oppose law suits, fines, liens, levies, assessments, purported claims for debts, libel, etc. by both public and private parties and agencies.

TAXES:  The Trustee is to pay all properly due taxes and to file all properly due tax returns.  This Trust shall be properly operated as a "Simple Trust" and distributes all net income to its legal Beneficiary.

TRUSTEE WAGES:  The trust shall pay the Trustee "a reasonable wage".  A reasonable wage is defined as: payment of all of Trustee's expenses, including but not limited to, all living expenses.  Additional wages may also be provided for Trustee services.

OUTSIDE HELP AND ADVICE:  The Trustee or its assigns may utilize outside consultants, brokers, attorneys, accountants, appraisers, custodians, employees, independent contractors, and pay them compensation as the Trustee may deem advisable.

BONDS AND FEES:  The Trustee or its assigns may transfer, assign, mortgage, apply and remove liens on property, perfect title, and furnish copies of bills of sale, deeds, trust indentures, corporate charters, resolutions, and such other legal paperwork as may be necessary to effect legal change of ownership of real estate property.  Trustee may serve without Bond or Fees.

OWNERSHIP TITLE:  Title to assets may be held in the name of this Trust, the names of the Trustee or its assigns, in street name, or in bearer name.  Any monies received by an agent-nominee for and on behalf of this Trust shall not be considered to have been constructively received by said nominee-agent, but shall accrue solely for the benefit and legal ownership of this Trust.

TRUSTEE RESIGNATION OR DEPARTURE:  Should the Trustee resign, cease to exist, or depart for any reason, the successor Trustee shall be                                                                per schedule B of this agreement.

IRREVOCABLE:  This Trust is irrevocable and cannot be changed, revoked, or terminated of even blocked by the Creator, Trustee, or Beneficiary.  No other parties are legally associated.


IN WITNESS WHEREOF, said Creator and Trustee have hereto set their respective hands and Seals.

(CREATOR)

BY                                                                    DATE
Creator

(TRUSTEE)

BY                                                                    DATE
Trustee

Not very sure of that what you're trying to prove. I know it can be easy to set up a trust, but the question which matters is what you can do with it. There are more than 200 countries in this world, and such a trust would have some us in only a handful. Even in the UK, you go to HSBC trying to open an account with a trust like your example, and I doubt they will accept you as a customer.

Things are not easy. Countries make everything difficult.

[BADecker]

Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.

However, there are people set up in many countries who will do it for you for a much smaller fee. Ever heard of the Panama Papers?

I suggest you find a picture of the Mossack Fonseca building in Panama. My little finger tells me that lawyers who have their offices in a great building like they have command very high fees.

Regarding stateless people, there are unfortunately millions of them in the world, and I'm very happy not to be one of them. BTC is totally useless to them, just like a microwave oven. I'm sure they've never heard of it.

They come in all sizes with all kinds of fees.    

A trust is never cheap. You may also consider that you cannot do anything you want with one. In most European countries, it's impossible to buy a property under the name of some company in Panama, you 'll have to set up a local company with a known legal owner (who can be a lawyer).

In general, a trust is the cheapest thing in the world. For example. You go over to your girlfriend's place. She is fixing a snack in the kitchen, while you are tuning the game in on TV. She comes to you with a bag of cat food in her hands. She holds out the cat food to you and says, "Will you please feed Kitty while I am working in the kitchen?" You say, "Yes," and accept the cat food from her.

You have a simple, common law trust going. She is the creator. You are the trustee. Kitty is the beneficiary.

Now, all you need to do is write it all down, add some words to it that express not only the job at hand - feeding the cat - but all kinds of other things you can do in the "name" of the trust... like set up bank accounts, buy property, accept donations, you name it.

In civil law countries - like most of Europe - you need to know the law regarding some of the things that you can do. But in the U.K. (like in Canada and the U.S. and Australia) you can simply state that the trust is made under English Common Law predating 1800, and you can add anything to it that you want, as long as it does not intentionally speak to harm someone or damage his property. If the trust states that the creator and you are the only people that have anything to do with the trust, the trust is property of yours (proper to you) and the legal codes do not apply as long as you enforce the property rights of the trust against government if they come after you in the courts.

Simple as that. However, this does not mean that the banks have to honor the trust and set up a bank account in the name of the trust if you ask for it. But the trust can own a corporation or LLC which the banks WILL honor setting up accounts for.

Here is a copy of a simple, English Common Law trust. I suggest that you DON'T use it as is. If you are going to use it, read it through, and make it stronger by adding words that limit government's ability to attack it. For example, you might want to add the words somewhere, "It is the intent of the Creator and the Trustee that the income of this trust remain untaxed to the trust, trustee or the Beneficiary(ies)."

TWENTY YEAR REVERSIONARY SIMPLE TRUST

Date:                                              

TRUST AGREEMENT BETWEEN:

(Creator) Name:
Mailing Location:
City:
State:

and

(Trust) Name:
Mailing Location:
City:
State:
(Trustee) Name:

The creator hereby conveys, assigns, transfers, and delivers to the trustee the sum of One (1) United States Silver Dollar (Silver Eagle) and such other assets and property as now and in the future may be so transferred as described in Schedule A, attached hereto and made a part hereof, the receipt of which the Trustee hereby acknowledges, and to have to hold the said property, hereinafter called the Trust Estate, unto the Trustee in trust for the purposes and terms as set forth below.

   Beneficiary: This trust is established for the benefit of

INVESTMENT- MANAGEMENT: The Trustee, or its General manager assigns, shall invest and reinvest the Trust Estate in its discretion, without regard for any law prescribing or limiting the investment powers of fiduciaries, in any security, but not limited to Stocks, Commodities, Precious Metals, Mutual Funds, Real estate, Bank CD's and L/C's, Warehouse and Elevator Receipts, Stamps, Waybills, Options, Commercial Paper, Accounts Receivable, Royalty and Limited Partnership Interests, Copyrights, Patents, Requests Anticipated, etc.

PURCHASE AND SALE OF SECURITIES: Capital assets and securities may be purchased on the installment sales basis at the Trustee's discretion.  Commercial paper securities may be sold at any price, i.e. at, above or below cost at the sole discretion of the Trustee or its assigns. Investments may be HYPOTHECATED and loaned out, and Monies can be borrowed.

BANKING:  Regular checking, saving, thrift and other saving accounts may be opened, maintained, and closed at the discretion of the Trustee or its assigns.  The Trustee or its assigns may appoint third party bookkeepers to manage, deposit, and withdraw from said accounts.

FORMATION AND PROTECTION:  This trust is formed under English Common Law.

LEGAL STATUS AND VALIDITY:  The validity of this Trust is subject to the courts of its Situs.

DONORS AND SELLERS:  Anyone may donate assets to this Trust, and anyone may sell assets to this Trust.  Upon termination of this Trust the Trustee or its assigns shall pay to the Donors the then current value of their Donations, or to the Donor's Estate.  Settlers who have the right of first refusal under a Buy/Sell Agreement may exercise their rights at any time the Trust remains in operation or as long as the Trust's Successor remains in operation.

DISTRIBUTION AND TERMINATION:  The Trustee or its assigns shall distribute all net income to the Beneficiary or on its behalf for a period of twenty (20) years from the date of this agreement, at which time it may be renewed with a new Agreement.  It is the intent of the Creator and the Trustee to so renew unless stated by them otherwise.

POUR-OVER AUTHORITY:  For the purpose of renewing this Agreement, the assets of the existing Agreement may be "poured-over" into the Renewable Agreement by the Trustee.

LAW SUITS:  This Trust shall settle, compromise, pursue, and/or oppose law suits, fines, liens, levies, assessments, purported claims for debts, libel, etc. by both public and private parties and agencies.

TAXES:  The Trustee is to pay all properly due taxes and to file all properly due tax returns.  This Trust shall be properly operated as a "Simple Trust" and distributes all net income to its legal Beneficiary.

TRUSTEE WAGES:  The trust shall pay the Trustee "a reasonable wage".  A reasonable wage is defined as: payment of all of Trustee's expenses, including but not limited to, all living expenses.  Additional wages may also be provided for Trustee services.

OUTSIDE HELP AND ADVICE:  The Trustee or its assigns may utilize outside consultants, brokers, attorneys, accountants, appraisers, custodians, employees, independent contractors, and pay them compensation as the Trustee may deem advisable.

BONDS AND FEES:  The Trustee or its assigns may transfer, assign, mortgage, apply and remove liens on property, perfect title, and furnish copies of bills of sale, deeds, trust indentures, corporate charters, resolutions, and such other legal paperwork as may be necessary to effect legal change of ownership of real estate property.  Trustee may serve without Bond or Fees.

OWNERSHIP TITLE:  Title to assets may be held in the name of this Trust, the names of the Trustee or its assigns, in street name, or in bearer name.  Any monies received by an agent-nominee for and on behalf of this Trust shall not be considered to have been constructively received by said nominee-agent, but shall accrue solely for the benefit and legal ownership of this Trust.

TRUSTEE RESIGNATION OR DEPARTURE:  Should the Trustee resign, cease to exist, or depart for any reason, the successor Trustee shall be                                                                per schedule B of this agreement.

IRREVOCABLE:  This Trust is irrevocable and cannot be changed, revoked, or terminated of even blocked by the Creator, Trustee, or Beneficiary.  No other parties are legally associated.


IN WITNESS WHEREOF, said Creator and Trustee have hereto set their respective hands and Seals.

(CREATOR)

BY                                                                    DATE
Creator

(TRUSTEE)

BY                                                                    DATE
Trustee

Not very sure of that what you're trying to prove. I know it can be easy to set up a trust, but the question which matters is what you can do with it. There are more than 200 countries in this world, and such a trust would have some us in only a handful. Even in the UK, you go to HSBC trying to open an account with a trust like your example, and I doubt they will accept you as a customer.

Things are not easy. Countries make everything difficult.

Did you miss the part where I said, "But the trust can own a corporation or LLC which the banks WILL honor setting up accounts for?"

As I also said, "But in the U.K. (like in Canada and the U.S. and Australia) you can simply state that the trust is made under English Common Law predating 1800, and you can add anything to it that you want, as long as it does not intentionally speak to harm someone or damage his property?"

The point is, even in the countries that are civil law (dictatorship by government) countries, with a little study, the above common law trust can be adapted. Depending on the sincerity of the people involved, the above trust can be set up almost without any change at all common law countries. How much did it cost you to read it and copy it into your computer? $thousands?

Certainly some countries will look on trusts with less favor than other countries. You can only do what you can do. However, the above trust is easy country-wise in the USA, Britain and her protectorates, Canada, Belize, Australia, South American Guyana, and India and Bangladesh... if the people stand up for their common law rights in the courts when challenged.

[Nouelle-Hunter]

In my opinion bitcoin is designed for everyone not just for Stateless societies. I believe that bitcoin is made because of one goal, and that is to ease the hassle in paying online. 

[countryfree]

Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.

However, there are people set up in many countries who will do it for you for a much smaller fee. Ever heard of the Panama Papers?

I suggest you find a picture of the Mossack Fonseca building in Panama. My little finger tells me that lawyers who have their offices in a great building like they have command very high fees.

Regarding stateless people, there are unfortunately millions of them in the world, and I'm very happy not to be one of them. BTC is totally useless to them, just like a microwave oven. I'm sure they've never heard of it.

They come in all sizes with all kinds of fees.    

A trust is never cheap. You may also consider that you cannot do anything you want with one. In most European countries, it's impossible to buy a property under the name of some company in Panama, you 'll have to set up a local company with a known legal owner (who can be a lawyer).

In general, a trust is the cheapest thing in the world. For example. You go over to your girlfriend's place. She is fixing a snack in the kitchen, while you are tuning the game in on TV. She comes to you with a bag of cat food in her hands. She holds out the cat food to you and says, "Will you please feed Kitty while I am working in the kitchen?" You say, "Yes," and accept the cat food from her.

You have a simple, common law trust going. She is the creator. You are the trustee. Kitty is the beneficiary.

Now, all you need to do is write it all down, add some words to it that express not only the job at hand - feeding the cat - but all kinds of other things you can do in the "name" of the trust... like set up bank accounts, buy property, accept donations, you name it.

In civil law countries - like most of Europe - you need to know the law regarding some of the things that you can do. But in the U.K. (like in Canada and the U.S. and Australia) you can simply state that the trust is made under English Common Law predating 1800, and you can add anything to it that you want, as long as it does not intentionally speak to harm someone or damage his property. If the trust states that the creator and you are the only people that have anything to do with the trust, the trust is property of yours (proper to you) and the legal codes do not apply as long as you enforce the property rights of the trust against government if they come after you in the courts.

Simple as that. However, this does not mean that the banks have to honor the trust and set up a bank account in the name of the trust if you ask for it. But the trust can own a corporation or LLC which the banks WILL honor setting up accounts for.

Here is a copy of a simple, English Common Law trust. I suggest that you DON'T use it as is. If you are going to use it, read it through, and make it stronger by adding words that limit government's ability to attack it. For example, you might want to add the words somewhere, "It is the intent of the Creator and the Trustee that the income of this trust remain untaxed to the trust, trustee or the Beneficiary(ies)."

TWENTY YEAR REVERSIONARY SIMPLE TRUST

Date:                                              

TRUST AGREEMENT BETWEEN:

(Creator) Name:
Mailing Location:
City:
State:

and

(Trust) Name:
Mailing Location:
City:
State:
(Trustee) Name:

The creator hereby conveys, assigns, transfers, and delivers to the trustee the sum of One (1) United States Silver Dollar (Silver Eagle) and such other assets and property as now and in the future may be so transferred as described in Schedule A, attached hereto and made a part hereof, the receipt of which the Trustee hereby acknowledges, and to have to hold the said property, hereinafter called the Trust Estate, unto the Trustee in trust for the purposes and terms as set forth below.

   Beneficiary: This trust is established for the benefit of

INVESTMENT- MANAGEMENT: The Trustee, or its General manager assigns, shall invest and reinvest the Trust Estate in its discretion, without regard for any law prescribing or limiting the investment powers of fiduciaries, in any security, but not limited to Stocks, Commodities, Precious Metals, Mutual Funds, Real estate, Bank CD's and L/C's, Warehouse and Elevator Receipts, Stamps, Waybills, Options, Commercial Paper, Accounts Receivable, Royalty and Limited Partnership Interests, Copyrights, Patents, Requests Anticipated, etc.

PURCHASE AND SALE OF SECURITIES: Capital assets and securities may be purchased on the installment sales basis at the Trustee's discretion.  Commercial paper securities may be sold at any price, i.e. at, above or below cost at the sole discretion of the Trustee or its assigns. Investments may be HYPOTHECATED and loaned out, and Monies can be borrowed.

BANKING:  Regular checking, saving, thrift and other saving accounts may be opened, maintained, and closed at the discretion of the Trustee or its assigns.  The Trustee or its assigns may appoint third party bookkeepers to manage, deposit, and withdraw from said accounts.

FORMATION AND PROTECTION:  This trust is formed under English Common Law.

LEGAL STATUS AND VALIDITY:  The validity of this Trust is subject to the courts of its Situs.

DONORS AND SELLERS:  Anyone may donate assets to this Trust, and anyone may sell assets to this Trust.  Upon termination of this Trust the Trustee or its assigns shall pay to the Donors the then current value of their Donations, or to the Donor's Estate.  Settlers who have the right of first refusal under a Buy/Sell Agreement may exercise their rights at any time the Trust remains in operation or as long as the Trust's Successor remains in operation.

DISTRIBUTION AND TERMINATION:  The Trustee or its assigns shall distribute all net income to the Beneficiary or on its behalf for a period of twenty (20) years from the date of this agreement, at which time it may be renewed with a new Agreement.  It is the intent of the Creator and the Trustee to so renew unless stated by them otherwise.

POUR-OVER AUTHORITY:  For the purpose of renewing this Agreement, the assets of the existing Agreement may be "poured-over" into the Renewable Agreement by the Trustee.

LAW SUITS:  This Trust shall settle, compromise, pursue, and/or oppose law suits, fines, liens, levies, assessments, purported claims for debts, libel, etc. by both public and private parties and agencies.

TAXES:  The Trustee is to pay all properly due taxes and to file all properly due tax returns.  This Trust shall be properly operated as a "Simple Trust" and distributes all net income to its legal Beneficiary.

TRUSTEE WAGES:  The trust shall pay the Trustee "a reasonable wage".  A reasonable wage is defined as: payment of all of Trustee's expenses, including but not limited to, all living expenses.  Additional wages may also be provided for Trustee services.

OUTSIDE HELP AND ADVICE:  The Trustee or its assigns may utilize outside consultants, brokers, attorneys, accountants, appraisers, custodians, employees, independent contractors, and pay them compensation as the Trustee may deem advisable.

BONDS AND FEES:  The Trustee or its assigns may transfer, assign, mortgage, apply and remove liens on property, perfect title, and furnish copies of bills of sale, deeds, trust indentures, corporate charters, resolutions, and such other legal paperwork as may be necessary to effect legal change of ownership of real estate property.  Trustee may serve without Bond or Fees.

OWNERSHIP TITLE:  Title to assets may be held in the name of this Trust, the names of the Trustee or its assigns, in street name, or in bearer name.  Any monies received by an agent-nominee for and on behalf of this Trust shall not be considered to have been constructively received by said nominee-agent, but shall accrue solely for the benefit and legal ownership of this Trust.

TRUSTEE RESIGNATION OR DEPARTURE:  Should the Trustee resign, cease to exist, or depart for any reason, the successor Trustee shall be                                                                per schedule B of this agreement.

IRREVOCABLE:  This Trust is irrevocable and cannot be changed, revoked, or terminated of even blocked by the Creator, Trustee, or Beneficiary.  No other parties are legally associated.


IN WITNESS WHEREOF, said Creator and Trustee have hereto set their respective hands and Seals.

(CREATOR)

BY                                                                    DATE
Creator

(TRUSTEE)

BY                                                                    DATE
Trustee

Not very sure of that what you're trying to prove. I know it can be easy to set up a trust, but the question which matters is what you can do with it. There are more than 200 countries in this world, and such a trust would have some us in only a handful. Even in the UK, you go to HSBC trying to open an account with a trust like your example, and I doubt they will accept you as a customer.

Things are not easy. Countries make everything difficult.

Did you miss the part where I said, "But the trust can own a corporation or LLC which the banks WILL honor setting up accounts for?"

I very precisely answered that point. With all the AML and KYC regulations we have nowadays, you may try to open a bank account for a trust but if the person in charge, or the shareholders, are not fully identified legal residents in the country, the bank will politely say that it doesn't want to do business with you, and that will be the end of the discussion.

[BADecker]

Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.

However, there are people set up in many countries who will do it for you for a much smaller fee. Ever heard of the Panama Papers?

I suggest you find a picture of the Mossack Fonseca building in Panama. My little finger tells me that lawyers who have their offices in a great building like they have command very high fees.

Regarding stateless people, there are unfortunately millions of them in the world, and I'm very happy not to be one of them. BTC is totally useless to them, just like a microwave oven. I'm sure they've never heard of it.

They come in all sizes with all kinds of fees.    

A trust is never cheap. You may also consider that you cannot do anything you want with one. In most European countries, it's impossible to buy a property under the name of some company in Panama, you 'll have to set up a local company with a known legal owner (who can be a lawyer).

In general, a trust is the cheapest thing in the world. For example. You go over to your girlfriend's place. She is fixing a snack in the kitchen, while you are tuning the game in on TV. She comes to you with a bag of cat food in her hands. She holds out the cat food to you and says, "Will you please feed Kitty while I am working in the kitchen?" You say, "Yes," and accept the cat food from her.

You have a simple, common law trust going. She is the creator. You are the trustee. Kitty is the beneficiary.

Now, all you need to do is write it all down, add some words to it that express not only the job at hand - feeding the cat - but all kinds of other things you can do in the "name" of the trust... like set up bank accounts, buy property, accept donations, you name it.

In civil law countries - like most of Europe - you need to know the law regarding some of the things that you can do. But in the U.K. (like in Canada and the U.S. and Australia) you can simply state that the trust is made under English Common Law predating 1800, and you can add anything to it that you want, as long as it does not intentionally speak to harm someone or damage his property. If the trust states that the creator and you are the only people that have anything to do with the trust, the trust is property of yours (proper to you) and the legal codes do not apply as long as you enforce the property rights of the trust against government if they come after you in the courts.

Simple as that. However, this does not mean that the banks have to honor the trust and set up a bank account in the name of the trust if you ask for it. But the trust can own a corporation or LLC which the banks WILL honor setting up accounts for.

Here is a copy of a simple, English Common Law trust. I suggest that you DON'T use it as is. If you are going to use it, read it through, and make it stronger by adding words that limit government's ability to attack it. For example, you might want to add the words somewhere, "It is the intent of the Creator and the Trustee that the income of this trust remain untaxed to the trust, trustee or the Beneficiary(ies)."

TWENTY YEAR REVERSIONARY SIMPLE TRUST

Date:                                              

TRUST AGREEMENT BETWEEN:

(Creator) Name:
Mailing Location:
City:
State:

and

(Trust) Name:
Mailing Location:
City:
State:
(Trustee) Name:

The creator hereby conveys, assigns, transfers, and delivers to the trustee the sum of One (1) United States Silver Dollar (Silver Eagle) and such other assets and property as now and in the future may be so transferred as described in Schedule A, attached hereto and made a part hereof, the receipt of which the Trustee hereby acknowledges, and to have to hold the said property, hereinafter called the Trust Estate, unto the Trustee in trust for the purposes and terms as set forth below.

   Beneficiary: This trust is established for the benefit of

INVESTMENT- MANAGEMENT: The Trustee, or its General manager assigns, shall invest and reinvest the Trust Estate in its discretion, without regard for any law prescribing or limiting the investment powers of fiduciaries, in any security, but not limited to Stocks, Commodities, Precious Metals, Mutual Funds, Real estate, Bank CD's and L/C's, Warehouse and Elevator Receipts, Stamps, Waybills, Options, Commercial Paper, Accounts Receivable, Royalty and Limited Partnership Interests, Copyrights, Patents, Requests Anticipated, etc.

PURCHASE AND SALE OF SECURITIES: Capital assets and securities may be purchased on the installment sales basis at the Trustee's discretion.  Commercial paper securities may be sold at any price, i.e. at, above or below cost at the sole discretion of the Trustee or its assigns. Investments may be HYPOTHECATED and loaned out, and Monies can be borrowed.

BANKING:  Regular checking, saving, thrift and other saving accounts may be opened, maintained, and closed at the discretion of the Trustee or its assigns.  The Trustee or its assigns may appoint third party bookkeepers to manage, deposit, and withdraw from said accounts.

FORMATION AND PROTECTION:  This trust is formed under English Common Law.

LEGAL STATUS AND VALIDITY:  The validity of this Trust is subject to the courts of its Situs.

DONORS AND SELLERS:  Anyone may donate assets to this Trust, and anyone may sell assets to this Trust.  Upon termination of this Trust the Trustee or its assigns shall pay to the Donors the then current value of their Donations, or to the Donor's Estate.  Settlers who have the right of first refusal under a Buy/Sell Agreement may exercise their rights at any time the Trust remains in operation or as long as the Trust's Successor remains in operation.

DISTRIBUTION AND TERMINATION:  The Trustee or its assigns shall distribute all net income to the Beneficiary or on its behalf for a period of twenty (20) years from the date of this agreement, at which time it may be renewed with a new Agreement.  It is the intent of the Creator and the Trustee to so renew unless stated by them otherwise.

POUR-OVER AUTHORITY:  For the purpose of renewing this Agreement, the assets of the existing Agreement may be "poured-over" into the Renewable Agreement by the Trustee.

LAW SUITS:  This Trust shall settle, compromise, pursue, and/or oppose law suits, fines, liens, levies, assessments, purported claims for debts, libel, etc. by both public and private parties and agencies.

TAXES:  The Trustee is to pay all properly due taxes and to file all properly due tax returns.  This Trust shall be properly operated as a "Simple Trust" and distributes all net income to its legal Beneficiary.

TRUSTEE WAGES:  The trust shall pay the Trustee "a reasonable wage".  A reasonable wage is defined as: payment of all of Trustee's expenses, including but not limited to, all living expenses.  Additional wages may also be provided for Trustee services.

OUTSIDE HELP AND ADVICE:  The Trustee or its assigns may utilize outside consultants, brokers, attorneys, accountants, appraisers, custodians, employees, independent contractors, and pay them compensation as the Trustee may deem advisable.

BONDS AND FEES:  The Trustee or its assigns may transfer, assign, mortgage, apply and remove liens on property, perfect title, and furnish copies of bills of sale, deeds, trust indentures, corporate charters, resolutions, and such other legal paperwork as may be necessary to effect legal change of ownership of real estate property.  Trustee may serve without Bond or Fees.

OWNERSHIP TITLE:  Title to assets may be held in the name of this Trust, the names of the Trustee or its assigns, in street name, or in bearer name.  Any monies received by an agent-nominee for and on behalf of this Trust shall not be considered to have been constructively received by said nominee-agent, but shall accrue solely for the benefit and legal ownership of this Trust.

TRUSTEE RESIGNATION OR DEPARTURE:  Should the Trustee resign, cease to exist, or depart for any reason, the successor Trustee shall be                                                                per schedule B of this agreement.

IRREVOCABLE:  This Trust is irrevocable and cannot be changed, revoked, or terminated of even blocked by the Creator, Trustee, or Beneficiary.  No other parties are legally associated.


IN WITNESS WHEREOF, said Creator and Trustee have hereto set their respective hands and Seals.

(CREATOR)

BY                                                                    DATE
Creator

(TRUSTEE)

BY                                                                    DATE
Trustee

Not very sure of that what you're trying to prove. I know it can be easy to set up a trust, but the question which matters is what you can do with it. There are more than 200 countries in this world, and such a trust would have some us in only a handful. Even in the UK, you go to HSBC trying to open an account with a trust like your example, and I doubt they will accept you as a customer.

Things are not easy. Countries make everything difficult.

Did you miss the part where I said, "But the trust can own a corporation or LLC which the banks WILL honor setting up accounts for?"

I very precisely answered that point. With all the AML and KYC regulations we have nowadays, you may try to open a bank account for a trust but if the person in charge, or the shareholders, are not fully identified legal residents in the country, the bank will politely say that it doesn't want to do business with you, and that will be the end of the discussion.

Well, I never said it would be easy. But who might be disagreeing with you? Certainly not me.

You sound like you understand the English language. So, did you miss the part where I DIDN'T say anything about the banks opening an account for the trust?

[countryfree]

Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.

However, there are people set up in many countries who will do it for you for a much smaller fee. Ever heard of the Panama Papers?

I suggest you find a picture of the Mossack Fonseca building in Panama. My little finger tells me that lawyers who have their offices in a great building like they have command very high fees.

Regarding stateless people, there are unfortunately millions of them in the world, and I'm very happy not to be one of them. BTC is totally useless to them, just like a microwave oven. I'm sure they've never heard of it.

They come in all sizes with all kinds of fees.    

A trust is never cheap. You may also consider that you cannot do anything you want with one. In most European countries, it's impossible to buy a property under the name of some company in Panama, you 'll have to set up a local company with a known legal owner (who can be a lawyer).

In general, a trust is the cheapest thing in the world. For example. You go over to your girlfriend's place. She is fixing a snack in the kitchen, while you are tuning the game in on TV. She comes to you with a bag of cat food in her hands. She holds out the cat food to you and says, "Will you please feed Kitty while I am working in the kitchen?" You say, "Yes," and accept the cat food from her.

You have a simple, common law trust going. She is the creator. You are the trustee. Kitty is the beneficiary.

Now, all you need to do is write it all down, add some words to it that express not only the job at hand - feeding the cat - but all kinds of other things you can do in the "name" of the trust... like set up bank accounts, buy property, accept donations, you name it.

In civil law countries - like most of Europe - you need to know the law regarding some of the things that you can do. But in the U.K. (like in Canada and the U.S. and Australia) you can simply state that the trust is made under English Common Law predating 1800, and you can add anything to it that you want, as long as it does not intentionally speak to harm someone or damage his property. If the trust states that the creator and you are the only people that have anything to do with the trust, the trust is property of yours (proper to you) and the legal codes do not apply as long as you enforce the property rights of the trust against government if they come after you in the courts.

Simple as that. However, this does not mean that the banks have to honor the trust and set up a bank account in the name of the trust if you ask for it. But the trust can own a corporation or LLC which the banks WILL honor setting up accounts for.

Here is a copy of a simple, English Common Law trust. I suggest that you DON'T use it as is. If you are going to use it, read it through, and make it stronger by adding words that limit government's ability to attack it. For example, you might want to add the words somewhere, "It is the intent of the Creator and the Trustee that the income of this trust remain untaxed to the trust, trustee or the Beneficiary(ies)."

TWENTY YEAR REVERSIONARY SIMPLE TRUST

Date:                                              

TRUST AGREEMENT BETWEEN:

(Creator) Name:
Mailing Location:
City:
State:

and

(Trust) Name:
Mailing Location:
City:
State:
(Trustee) Name:

The creator hereby conveys, assigns, transfers, and delivers to the trustee the sum of One (1) United States Silver Dollar (Silver Eagle) and such other assets and property as now and in the future may be so transferred as described in Schedule A, attached hereto and made a part hereof, the receipt of which the Trustee hereby acknowledges, and to have to hold the said property, hereinafter called the Trust Estate, unto the Trustee in trust for the purposes and terms as set forth below.

   Beneficiary: This trust is established for the benefit of

INVESTMENT- MANAGEMENT: The Trustee, or its General manager assigns, shall invest and reinvest the Trust Estate in its discretion, without regard for any law prescribing or limiting the investment powers of fiduciaries, in any security, but not limited to Stocks, Commodities, Precious Metals, Mutual Funds, Real estate, Bank CD's and L/C's, Warehouse and Elevator Receipts, Stamps, Waybills, Options, Commercial Paper, Accounts Receivable, Royalty and Limited Partnership Interests, Copyrights, Patents, Requests Anticipated, etc.

PURCHASE AND SALE OF SECURITIES: Capital assets and securities may be purchased on the installment sales basis at the Trustee's discretion.  Commercial paper securities may be sold at any price, i.e. at, above or below cost at the sole discretion of the Trustee or its assigns. Investments may be HYPOTHECATED and loaned out, and Monies can be borrowed.

BANKING:  Regular checking, saving, thrift and other saving accounts may be opened, maintained, and closed at the discretion of the Trustee or its assigns.  The Trustee or its assigns may appoint third party bookkeepers to manage, deposit, and withdraw from said accounts.

FORMATION AND PROTECTION:  This trust is formed under English Common Law.

LEGAL STATUS AND VALIDITY:  The validity of this Trust is subject to the courts of its Situs.

DONORS AND SELLERS:  Anyone may donate assets to this Trust, and anyone may sell assets to this Trust.  Upon termination of this Trust the Trustee or its assigns shall pay to the Donors the then current value of their Donations, or to the Donor's Estate.  Settlers who have the right of first refusal under a Buy/Sell Agreement may exercise their rights at any time the Trust remains in operation or as long as the Trust's Successor remains in operation.

DISTRIBUTION AND TERMINATION:  The Trustee or its assigns shall distribute all net income to the Beneficiary or on its behalf for a period of twenty (20) years from the date of this agreement, at which time it may be renewed with a new Agreement.  It is the intent of the Creator and the Trustee to so renew unless stated by them otherwise.

POUR-OVER AUTHORITY:  For the purpose of renewing this Agreement, the assets of the existing Agreement may be "poured-over" into the Renewable Agreement by the Trustee.

LAW SUITS:  This Trust shall settle, compromise, pursue, and/or oppose law suits, fines, liens, levies, assessments, purported claims for debts, libel, etc. by both public and private parties and agencies.

TAXES:  The Trustee is to pay all properly due taxes and to file all properly due tax returns.  This Trust shall be properly operated as a "Simple Trust" and distributes all net income to its legal Beneficiary.

TRUSTEE WAGES:  The trust shall pay the Trustee "a reasonable wage".  A reasonable wage is defined as: payment of all of Trustee's expenses, including but not limited to, all living expenses.  Additional wages may also be provided for Trustee services.

OUTSIDE HELP AND ADVICE:  The Trustee or its assigns may utilize outside consultants, brokers, attorneys, accountants, appraisers, custodians, employees, independent contractors, and pay them compensation as the Trustee may deem advisable.

BONDS AND FEES:  The Trustee or its assigns may transfer, assign, mortgage, apply and remove liens on property, perfect title, and furnish copies of bills of sale, deeds, trust indentures, corporate charters, resolutions, and such other legal paperwork as may be necessary to effect legal change of ownership of real estate property.  Trustee may serve without Bond or Fees.

OWNERSHIP TITLE:  Title to assets may be held in the name of this Trust, the names of the Trustee or its assigns, in street name, or in bearer name.  Any monies received by an agent-nominee for and on behalf of this Trust shall not be considered to have been constructively received by said nominee-agent, but shall accrue solely for the benefit and legal ownership of this Trust.

TRUSTEE RESIGNATION OR DEPARTURE:  Should the Trustee resign, cease to exist, or depart for any reason, the successor Trustee shall be                                                                per schedule B of this agreement.

IRREVOCABLE:  This Trust is irrevocable and cannot be changed, revoked, or terminated of even blocked by the Creator, Trustee, or Beneficiary.  No other parties are legally associated.


IN WITNESS WHEREOF, said Creator and Trustee have hereto set their respective hands and Seals.

(CREATOR)

BY                                                                    DATE
Creator

(TRUSTEE)

BY                                                                    DATE
Trustee

Not very sure of that what you're trying to prove. I know it can be easy to set up a trust, but the question which matters is what you can do with it. There are more than 200 countries in this world, and such a trust would have some us in only a handful. Even in the UK, you go to HSBC trying to open an account with a trust like your example, and I doubt they will accept you as a customer.

Things are not easy. Countries make everything difficult.

Did you miss the part where I said, "But the trust can own a corporation or LLC which the banks WILL honor setting up accounts for?"

I very precisely answered that point. With all the AML and KYC regulations we have nowadays, you may try to open a bank account for a trust but if the person in charge, or the shareholders, are not fully identified legal residents in the country, the bank will politely say that it doesn't want to do business with you, and that will be the end of the discussion.

Well, I never said it would be easy. But who might be disagreeing with you? Certainly not me.

You sound like you understand the English language. So, did you miss the part where I DIDN'T say anything about the banks opening an account for the trust?

Well, I guess it isn't going anywhere.
Your words: "But the trust can own a corporation or LLC which the banks WILL honor setting up accounts for?"
And mine in a more precise way: it makes no difference if you want to open a bank account for a trust or a company-owned trust. It's the same thing, only with an extra level added.

Back to the subject, I don't think a trust could be of any use in a stateless society.

[BADecker]

Well, I guess it isn't going anywhere.
Your words: "But the trust can own a corporation or LLC which the banks WILL honor setting up accounts for?"
And mine in a more precise way: it makes no difference if you want to open a bank account for a trust or a company-owned trust. It's the same thing, only with an extra level added.

Back to the subject, I don't think a trust could be of any use in a stateless society.

Quite the contrary. Trusts are in use all over the place all the time.

The meanest dictator can't run a nation alone. He has to trust some people sometime. And they have to trust him. That's why they write their "planks" down.



EDIT: There can never be a stateless society. The smallest state might be the family. But if there was no state, there would be no society.

[AlgoSwan]

There can never be a stateless society. The smallest state might be the family. But if there was no state, there would be no society.

For 99.8% of human history people lived exclusively in autonomous bands and villages. What were they?

[BADecker]

There can never be a stateless society. The smallest state might be the family. But if there was no state, there would be no society.

For 99.8% of human history people lived exclusively in autonomous bands and villages. What were they?

They were states, societies, families, friends, and religious activists.

[ObscureBean]

It amazes me how obtuse (naive?) humans are. To think they can escape "government control" and live happily ever after  But I guess this is still in line with the way they live, accuse/blame everything other than themselves. The control you seek to escape/defeat is not outside of you. It's always been within each and everyone of you. Defeating/changing the current system won't change anything.
 
But perhaps you don't really seek to escape control itself, perhaps your quest for decentralization is nothing but the perpetuation of the existing dog eat dog world and all you want is to replace government control with your own. If that's the case then I sincerely apologize for the comment above.

[AlgoSwan]

The State is almost universally considered an institution of social service. Some bitcointalkers like ObscureBean venerate the State as the apotheosis of society; others regard it as an amiable, though often inefficient, organization for achieving social ends; but almost all regard it as a necessary means for achieving the goals of mankind, a means to be ranged against the “private sector” and often winning in this competition of resources.

With the rise of democracy, the identification of the State with society has been redoubled, until it is common to hear sentiments expressed which violate virtually every tenet of reason and common sense such as, “we are the government.” The useful collective term “we” has enabled an ideological camouflage to be thrown over the reality of political life. If “we are the government,” then anything a government does to an individual is not only just and untyrannical but also “voluntary” on the part of the individual concerned. If the government has incurred a huge public debt which must be paid by taxing one group for the benefit of another, this reality of burden is obscured by saying that “we owe it to ourselves”; if the government conscripts a man, or throws him into jail for dissident opinion, then he is “doing it to himself” and, therefore, nothing untoward has occurred. Under this reasoning, any Jews murdered by the Nazi government were not murdered; instead, they must have “committed suicide,” since they were the government (which was democratically chosen), and, therefore, anything the government did to them was voluntary on their part. One would not think it necessary to belabor this point, and yet the overwhelming bulk of the people hold this fallacy to a greater or lesser degree.

[ObscureBean]

Some bitcointalkers like ObscureBean venerate the State as the apotheosis of society

You are reading me wrong   I do not venerate the State (although I can totally see why you would think that). But I'm not against it either. If you read my comments carefully you'll find that they all perfectly balanced, I do not take sides. I apologize if they are not always immediately clear.
I've said this before, in any dispute both sides are always wrong. You can't use control to fight the system because it uses control. Control begets control, win or lose you're still at square one and nothing's really changed. Real change can only truly occur within oneself.
The world you experience is only a reflection of who you are. And who you are is forged by the way you live.

[countryfree]

There can never be a stateless society. The smallest state might be the family. But if there was no state, there would be no society.

For 99.8% of human history people lived exclusively in autonomous bands and villages. What were they?

They were states, societies, families, friends, and religious activists.

I guess we have to define state and society. I believe there could be a society without a state, I may even believe that I believe in one. I hate the state in the sense that I hate bureaucracy, being told what to do and how to do it, or the fact that if I pick a phone, my conservation may be listened to by the CIA. But society is OK because it's informal. I have friends, we're going out for dinner, and that's it. I talked to the cashier at the grocery store earlier today, the state wasn't there.

I have escaped all kind of government control, and there are thousands others like me. I hope our number will keep on growing.

[BADecker]

There can never be a stateless society. The smallest state might be the family. But if there was no state, there would be no society.

For 99.8% of human history people lived exclusively in autonomous bands and villages. What were they?

They were states, societies, families, friends, and religious activists.

I guess we have to define state and society. I believe there could be a society without a state, I may even believe that I believe in one. I hate the state in the sense that I hate bureaucracy, being told what to do and how to do it, or the fact that if I pick a phone, my conservation may be listened to by the CIA. But society is OK because it's informal. I have friends, we're going out for dinner, and that's it. I talked to the cashier at the grocery store earlier today, the state wasn't there.

I have escaped all kind of government control, and there are thousands others like me. I hope our number will keep on growing.

If you really want a definition of "state," go here http://www.dictionary.com/browse/state?s=t.

If you want to consider that a "state" is a government, think about this. Every person in a particular government understands the things of that government at least a little differently. That's why they write the stuff down... so they can maintain a little bit of order in the face of different thinking... and forgetting.

There always is government. If people exist, they each have their own government/state = state of mind. And, there is natural government... like a pecking order among chickens.

Society is simply an informal grouping of multitudes of governments/states. However, there may be formal states that society "bows" to... often many, right inside the same society.

[ObscureBean]

There can never be a stateless society. The smallest state might be the family. But if there was no state, there would be no society.

For 99.8% of human history people lived exclusively in autonomous bands and villages. What were they?

They were states, societies, families, friends, and religious activists.

I guess we have to define state and society. I believe there could be a society without a state, I may even believe that I believe in one. I hate the state in the sense that I hate bureaucracy, being told what to do and how to do it, or the fact that if I pick a phone, my conservation may be listened to by the CIA. But society is OK because it's informal. I have friends, we're going out for dinner, and that's it. I talked to the cashier at the grocery store earlier today, the state wasn't there.

I have escaped all kind of government control, and there are thousands others like me. I hope our number will keep on growing.

What you don't seem to realize is that it's precisely the things you hate that make the things you love about modern society possible. All of the perks of the modern world are only possible with the current configuration. You can't separate the things you love from the things you hate, they go hand in hand. If you're being honest and really feel strongly about how the world is evolving then the impeccable thing for you to do would be to detach from it and make your own way, for better or worse. It's just pure hypocrisy if you take all of the things you enjoy but shun the burden that go hand in hand with them and blame it all on "the man" or "them". You are "the man", everyone is "the man" for as long as you accept the benefits of the modern world.