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Author Topic: The DAO FAIL  (Read 20476 times)
Ultrabat
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June 19, 2016, 11:07:49 AM
 #161


Miners are there to protect the integrity of the monetary system. If the thief cannot be caught in the real life, then we have to take back our money with a fork.

You will also have to pay the price of doing that which will be to have undermined one of the technology's core properties for evermore and make it toxic for any future serious players.

Bitcointalk is one thing, where people are aware of the subtleties of the background to this case. Major investors who have never heard of "smart contracts" up till now will not touch it with a bargepole once they learn that immutability can be compromised in this way - whether by mining consensus or in any other strategy. Your job as a miner is to consolidate history, not rewrite it.

Further, instead of confining the loss to DAO investors where it belongs, you will now be imposing it upon the entire Ethereum holder community.

Best to study historical precedents in this area:

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-protected-vericoin-stolen-mintpal-wallet-breach/



I think the Ethereum community will pay the price for supporting the DAO owners. But that is the right price to pay.

toknormal
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June 19, 2016, 11:26:55 AM
 #162


But that is the right price to pay.

Right for whom ? It may be right for DAO investors.

But it isn't right for Ethereum investors, it isn't right for future potential Smart Contract consumers, it isn't right for the cryptocurrency industry in general and it isn't right for developers.

The very architecture of a smart contract blockchain makes the logic of the "Turing Complete" scripting language independent of the logic of the blockchain on which it runs. Kind of like the separation of executive a legislative powers in states. If you decide to p*ss all over that principle just to save yourself embarrassment and investors in a known risky asset from taking a haircut then you just kill it for everybody.

It's different if the remedy comes from within the logic of the DAO code itself. That would be appropriate because that was where the logic failed. But forking at the Ethereum blockchain level is just suicide.

I realise that only the DAO would be affected by the fork but that just makes it even worse because it shows that forks can cherry pick what contracts they want to immute. I'm afraid the damage done in terms of loss of confidence will be irreparable.

The reason I'm p*ssed off about this is that I consciously did not invest in DAO because I understood the risk and what I was investing in. i.e. I realised I was buying a contract that floated on top of the Blockchain that carried its own logic (and therefore risk) which was independent of that of the platform tokens.

Now I find that that was not the case. That the risk is transferrable to Ether token holders because the fork needs to occur at the blockchain level. I don't think thats acceptable and although I could live with it as a one-off I doubt that future investors of industrial calibre will give a technology that entertains such cack handed tactics a second look.

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June 19, 2016, 11:31:54 AM
 #163


But that is the right price to pay.

Right for whom ? It may be right for DAO investors.

But it isn't right for Ethereum investors, it isn't right for future potential Smart Contract consumers, it isn't right for the cryptocurrency industry in general and it isn't right for developers.

The very architecture of a smart contract blockchain makes the logic of the "Turing Complete" scripting language independent of the logic of the blockchain on which it runs. Kind of like the separation of executive a legislative powers in states. If you decide to p*ss all over that principle just to save yourself embarrassment and investors in a known risky asset from taking a haircut then you just kill it for everybody.

It's different if the remedy comes from within the logic of the DAO code itself. That would be appropriate because that was where the logic failed. But forking at the Ethereum blockchain level is just suicide.

I realise that only the DAO would be affected by the fork but that just makes it even worse because it shows that forks can cherry pick what contracts they want to immute. I'm afraid the damage done in terms of loss of confidence will be irreparable.

If that is bad for the whole crypto currency community, then would the bitcoin holders give some help to the DAO owners so that there will not be a hard fork?
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June 19, 2016, 11:35:39 AM
 #164


If that is bad for the whole crypto currency community, then would the bitcoin holders give some help to the DAO owners so that there will not be a hard fork?

What kind of help ?
bit tired
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June 19, 2016, 11:37:20 AM
 #165


But that is the right price to pay.

Right for whom ? It may be right for DAO investors.

But it isn't right for Ethereum investors, it isn't right for future potential Smart Contract consumers, it isn't right for the cryptocurrency industry in general and it isn't right for developers.

The very architecture of a smart contract blockchain makes the logic of the "Turing Complete" scripting language independent of the logic of the blockchain on which it runs. Kind of like the separation of executive a legislative powers in states. If you decide to p*ss all over that principle just to save yourself embarrassment and investors in a known risky asset from taking a haircut then you just kill it for everybody.

It's different if the remedy comes from within the logic of the DAO code itself. That would be appropriate because that was where the logic failed. But forking at the Ethereum blockchain level is just suicide.

I realise that only the DAO would be affected by the fork but that just makes it even worse because it shows that forks can cherry pick what contracts they want to immute. I'm afraid the damage done in terms of loss of confidence will be irreparable.

If that is bad for the whole crypto currency community, then would the bitcoin holders give some help to the DAO owners so that there will not be a hard fork?

Vitalik dumped a quarter of his share of the ethereum premine. He could use that money to bail out the DAO and stop a hard fork if he believes in his coin. He still has the other three quarters of his share of the ethereum premine. If he believes in his coin he could wait until it recovers to dump the rest.

If he doesn't help out his remaining share of the premine could become worthless.
iamnotback
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June 19, 2016, 11:41:32 AM
 #166

It's different if the remedy comes from within the logic of the DAO code itself. That would be appropriate because that was where the logic failed. But forking at the Ethereum blockchain level is just suicide.

I realise that only the DAO would be affected by the fork but that just makes it even worse because it shows that forks can cherry pick what contracts they want to immute. I'm afraid the damage done in terms of loss of confidence will be irreparable.

Ignoring the legal factors which impact the game theory because that enterprise is not really decentralized (e.g. Vitalik, Tual, et al hyping moonshots to n00b dreamers without sobering disclaimers and the incestuous same set of good ole boys as Curators of The DAO), then I agree with you that the only fork of the Ethereum protocol which would be agnostic would be that which would futilely attempt to "fix" the litany of corner case bugs induced by Turing-complete programming.
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June 19, 2016, 12:32:20 PM
 #167


Well the confilct appears obvious to many commentators.

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June 19, 2016, 01:35:36 PM
 #168

Blacklisting Feature going in the next Geth and they are calling it "illegal hashes" .

Nice Orwellian doublespeak. You cannot make this shit up.
iamnotback
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June 19, 2016, 01:46:11 PM
 #169

Blacklisting Feature going in the next Geth and they are calling it "illegal hashes" .

Nice Orwellian doublespeak. You cannot make this shit up.

This will cause MP to fight them even more aggressively! We have war coming and the genius MP will not be the loser bcz he understand economics (i.e. reality) much better than Vitalik. Vitalik will be spanked on his shit soiled underwear diaper:

So is that interview legitimate? If so that guy gives zero fucks and is a straight internet gangster. Not my type person, but I kinda admire him.

Mircea Popescu (MP) has a core constitution which is that every person should be responsible for themself. And he originally was adamant that he would attack any Bitcoin fork that raised the block size. He also appears to be against shitcoins and he is a Bitcoin maximalist. He sees himself as a defender of anarchism. He also is motivated by profit. I definitely agree with his anarchism/self-responsibility constitution, but if he is supporting Blockstream's Rube Goldberg complexity future-clusterfuck Troika of SegWit, Side-chains, and Lightning Networks then he and I are going to disagree!

GTFO of ETH at $12 while you still can! The deadcat bounce is topping and lower, lower we will go. Because MP is not a bullshitter. And he has very significant BTC resources > 50,000 BTC.
Spoetnik
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June 19, 2016, 02:10:34 PM
 #170


Miners are there to protect the integrity of the monetary system. If the thief cannot be caught in the real life, then we have to take back our money with a fork.

You will also have to pay the price of doing that which will be to have undermined one of the technology's core properties for evermore and make it toxic for any future serious players.

Bitcointalk is one thing, where people are aware of the subtleties of the background to this case. Major investors who have never heard of "smart contracts" up till now will not touch it with a bargepole once they learn that immutability can be compromised in this way - whether by mining consensus or in any other strategy. Your job as a miner is to consolidate history, not rewrite it.

Further, instead of confining the loss to DAO investors where it belongs, you will now be imposing it upon the entire Ethereum holder community.

Best to study historical precedents in this area:

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-protected-vericoin-stolen-mintpal-wallet-breach/



I think the Ethereum community will pay the price for supporting the DAO owners. But that is the right price to pay.

Rightly.. Ethereum was made for this type of shit & was never a good or FAIR idea anyway.
So what other outcome would the Investarded expect ?

Invest in scammy schemes for profit you get what's coming to you !

FUD first & ask questions later™
iamnotback
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June 19, 2016, 02:26:49 PM
 #171

The very architecture of a smart contract blockchain makes the logic of the "Turing Complete" scripting language independent of the logic of the blockchain on which it runs. Kind of like the separation of executive a legislative powers in states. If you decide to p*ss all over that principle just to save yourself embarrassment and investors in a known risky asset from taking a haircut then you just kill it for everybody.

Incorrect! Turing-completeness is unbounded recursion. Thus it makes it impossible to encapsulate scripts from each other and from internal recursion, etc.. It is the opposite of your incorrect assumption!

You should stop spreading lies about computer science that you do not understand.
BitUsher
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June 19, 2016, 02:38:25 PM
 #172

Incorrect! Turing-completeness is unbounded recursion. Thus it makes it impossible to encapsulate scripts from each other and from internal recursion, etc.. It is the opposite of your incorrect assumption!

This!

Many mETH heads are making the incorrect assumption these fundamental security weakness lie within the DAO solely and not within the fundamental nature of the Ethereum blockchain. They are content to wait for the attack to come to them in a sense of naive delusion and ignore security researchers screaming warning signs to no avail.

http://vessenes.com/ethereum-contracts-are-going-to-be-candy-for-hackers/

http://hackingdistributed.com/2016/06/16/scanning-live-ethereum-contracts-for-bugs/




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Things are called shit for a reason, dear.


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June 19, 2016, 03:00:04 PM
 #173

No, I do not agree!  The open letter of the attackers states what the truth is. I rightly created a child dao and used it to recursively get Ether. This is acutally not forbidden it is just a bug in a feature in a decentralized environment.


P.S. In crypto, there are no "rightful owners".

Contrary to the banking credit world where posession and ownership are distinct, in crypto, ownership is unambiguously defined by possession. That is a cardinal quality of the blockchain that asserts its role as "bearer instrument".

If the mining community acts to disaffirm this principle - albeit in a meta currency layer - it will create an ambiguity that will haunt Ethereum for the rest of its existence IMO.

The lesson to be learned here is that Ethereum blockchain and Ethereum (Solidity) applications are distinct entities with distinct levels of reliability. If I write a piece of code in solidity (say to develop a coin) and I f*ck it up and loose my investors money does that mean I can get the Ethereum foundation to do a rollback and cover my a*ss ?

If not, why not ?


Miners are there to protect the integrity of the monetary system. If the thief cannot be caught in the real life, then we have to take back our money with a fork.

glerand
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June 19, 2016, 03:02:59 PM
 #174

No, I do not agree!  The open letter of the attackers states what the truth is. I rightly created a child dao and used it to recursively get Ether. This is acutally not forbidden it is just a bug in a feature in a decentralized environment.


If you are near an ATTM, the ATM malfunctioned, it spit out cash. If you take the cash and did not give it back, it is criminal action.
iamnotback
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June 19, 2016, 03:06:54 PM
 #175

Incorrect! Turing-completeness is unbounded recursion. Thus it makes it impossible to encapsulate scripts from each other and from internal recursion, etc.. It is the opposite of your incorrect assumption!

This!

Many mETH heads are making the incorrect assumption these fundamental security weakness lie within the DAO solely and not within the fundamental nature of the Ethereum blockchain. They are content to wait for the attack to come to them in a sense of naive delusion and ignore security researchers screaming warning signs to no avail.

http://vessenes.com/ethereum-contracts-are-going-to-be-candy-for-hackers/

http://hackingdistributed.com/2016/06/16/scanning-live-ethereum-contracts-for-bugs/


The issue now is with DAO, not Ether.

Incorrect.

Okay. That is too technical. It is beyond my understanding. Do you mind explaining it in layman terms or, at least in bachelor's level?

Does this help?

http://ebiquity.umbc.edu/blogger/2008/01/19/how-dr-suess-would-prove-the-halting-problem-undecidable/

Scooping the Loop Snooper
an elementary proof of the undecidability of the halting problem

Geoffrey K. Pullum, University of Edinburgh

No program can say what another will do.
Now, I won’t just assert that, I’ll prove it to you:
I will prove that although you might work til you drop,
you can’t predict whether a program will stop.

Imagine we have a procedure called P
that will snoop in the source code of programs to see
there aren’t infinite loops that go round and around;
and P prints the word “Fine!” if no looping is found.

You feed in your code, and the input it needs,
and then P takes them both and it studies and reads
and computes whether things will all end as they should
(as opposed to going loopy the way that they could).

Well, the truth is that P cannot possibly be,
because if you wrote it and gave it to me,
I could use it to set up a logical bind
that would shatter your reason and scramble your mind.

Here’s the trick I would use – and it’s simple to do.
I’d define a procedure – we’ll name the thing Q –
that would take any program and call P (of course!)
to tell if it looped, by reading the source;

And if so, Q would simply print “Loop!” and then stop;
but if no, Q would go right back to the top,
and start off again, looping endlessly back,
til the universe dies and is frozen and black.

And this program called Q wouldn’t stay on the shelf;
I would run it, and (fiendishly) feed it itself.
What behaviour results when I do this with Q?
When it reads its own source, just what will it do?

If P warns of loops, Q will print “Loop!” and quit;
yet P is supposed to speak truly of it.
So if Q’s going to quit, then P should say, “Fine!” –
which will make Q go back to its very first line!

No matter what P would have done, Q will scoop it:
Q uses P’s output to make P look stupid.
If P gets things right then it lies in its tooth;
and if it speaks falsely, it’s telling the truth!

I’ve created a paradox, neat as can be –
and simply by using your putative P.
When you assumed P you stepped into a snare;
Your assumptions have led you right into my lair.

So, how to escape from this logical mess?
I don’t have to tell you; I’m sure you can guess.
By reductio, there cannot possibly be
a procedure that acts like the mythical P.

You can never discover mechanical means
for predicting the acts of computing machines.
It’s something that cannot be done. So we users
must find our own bugs; our computers are losers!
iamnotback
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June 19, 2016, 03:14:23 PM
 #176

No, I do not agree!  The open letter of the attackers states what the truth is. I rightly created a child dao and used it to recursively get Ether. This is acutally not forbidden it is just a bug in a feature in a decentralized environment.


If you are near an ATTM, the ATM malfunctioned, it spit out cash. If you take the cash and did not give it back, it is criminal action.

The problem here is who decides what the "intent" of the contract was?

You're mixing apples and potatoes here. Bitcoin mostly uses soft-forks in order to improve its capabilities. Bitcoin has never used any kind of coin-control or bailouts which is exactly what ETH is going to do. If they do that, ETH is not immutable. Period.


Forking to remove 184 billion Bitcoins is a form of coin control.

Do you understand that Bitcoin was forked to address an issue created by a bug in the Bitcoin code?

It was not forked because a transaction script did not do what someone expected as DoOverCoin is proposing to do.

Intent is ambiguous unless we bind ourselves to a majority vote:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1505886.msg15278364#msg15278364

Thus I now say the fork of Bitcoin was equivalent to a fork of Ethereum w.r.t. to the context we are debating.

I just realized this.

Btw, this is also why Satoshi did not solve the Byzantine General's Problem.

Hueristic
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June 20, 2016, 05:45:35 AM
 #177

...

Does this help?

http://ebiquity.umbc.edu/blogger/2008/01/19/how-dr-suess-would-prove-the-halting-problem-undecidable/

Scooping the Loop Snooper
an elementary proof of the undecidability of the halting problem

Geoffrey K. Pullum, University of Edinburgh

No program can say what another will do.
Now, I won’t just assert that, I’ll prove it to you:
I will prove that although you might work til you drop,
you can’t predict whether a program will stop.

Imagine we have a procedure called P
that will snoop in the source code of programs to see
there aren’t infinite loops that go round and around;
and P prints the word “Fine!” if no looping is found.

You feed in your code, and the input it needs,
and then P takes them both and it studies and reads
and computes whether things will all end as they should
(as opposed to going loopy the way that they could).

Well, the truth is that P cannot possibly be,
because if you wrote it and gave it to me,
I could use it to set up a logical bind
that would shatter your reason and scramble your mind.

Here’s the trick I would use – and it’s simple to do.
I’d define a procedure – we’ll name the thing Q –
that would take any program and call P (of course!)
to tell if it looped, by reading the source;

And if so, Q would simply print “Loop!” and then stop;
but if no, Q would go right back to the top,
and start off again, looping endlessly back,
til the universe dies and is frozen and black.

And this program called Q wouldn’t stay on the shelf;
I would run it, and (fiendishly) feed it itself.
What behaviour results when I do this with Q?
When it reads its own source, just what will it do?

If P warns of loops, Q will print “Loop!” and quit;
yet P is supposed to speak truly of it.
So if Q’s going to quit, then P should say, “Fine!” –
which will make Q go back to its very first line!

No matter what P would have done, Q will scoop it:
Q uses P’s output to make P look stupid.
If P gets things right then it lies in its tooth;
and if it speaks falsely, it’s telling the truth!

I’ve created a paradox, neat as can be –
and simply by using your putative P.
When you assumed P you stepped into a snare;
Your assumptions have led you right into my lair.

So, how to escape from this logical mess?
I don’t have to tell you; I’m sure you can guess.
By reductio, there cannot possibly be
a procedure that acts like the mythical P.

You can never discover mechanical means
for predicting the acts of computing machines.
It’s something that cannot be done. So we users
must find our own bugs; our computers are losers!



That is friggin awesome is all I can say.
All thought experiments must be written this way!

Cheesy

“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”
CryR
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June 20, 2016, 09:47:45 AM
 #178


The DAO Hack - Hitler Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu638L-iVt8 ROFL
RastoMan
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June 20, 2016, 09:50:25 AM
 #179

No, I do not agree!  The open letter of the attackers states what the truth is. I rightly created a child dao and used it to recursively get Ether. This is acutally not forbidden it is just a bug in a feature in a decentralized environment.


If you are near an ATTM, the ATM malfunctioned, it spit out cash. If you take the cash and did not give it back, it is criminal action.

The problem here is who decides what the "intent" of the contract was?



The miners will decide what the "intent" of the contract was? There is a voting going on in several mining pools.
Tacalt
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June 20, 2016, 11:20:31 AM
 #180

No, I do not agree!  The open letter of the attackers states what the truth is. I rightly created a child dao and used it to recursively get Ether. This is acutally not forbidden it is just a bug in a feature in a decentralized environment.


If you are near an ATTM, the ATM malfunctioned, it spit out cash. If you take the cash and did not give it back, it is criminal action.

The problem here is who decides what the "intent" of the contract was?



The miners will decide what the "intent" of the contract was? There is a voting going on in several mining pools.

I think the "hacker" or the DAO holders are trying their best to persuade the miners to work in their favour.
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