Should the bitcoin community ban the Satoshi Dice filter patch?

[optimator]

If SD is a problem FIX BITCOIN. SD is only the tip of the iceberg for transactions to come. Bitcoin must be ready or it will fail. Please don't set bitcoin up for failure because of moral objections to how it is used.

SD is not "the tip of the iceberg". Let's imagine a bitcoin-operated coffee shop and compare it to Satoshidice. Assume you have 1000 customers at your coffee shop every day, everybody makes one purchase. 1000 transactions spread over a day is not much.

With Satoshidice, a single user can generate 1000 transactions in an hour. He might even set up a martingale bot that was running 24 hours per day. Imagine a thousand customers doing the same, and you can start to see the problem.

In short: A couple of people using Satoshidice can generate more transactions than a ton of other businesses combined.

And I'm not even talking about the dust.

Here's the iceberg:

On December 23, 2011, VisaNet processed 11,000 / second - source http://blog.visa.com/2011/01/12/visa-transactions-hit-peak-on-dec-23/ - That's 950,400,000 transactions per day.

At 24,000 SD transactions per day is .002525% of that traffic. Said another way, Bitcoin is nowhere near ready for the global stage if 1,000 dust transactions per hour grinds the system to a halt.

If SD is a problem, fix bitcoin.

[paraipan]

Free market goes both ways and if the miners choose not to relay spam then SD will have to adapt. This is not about shutting them down, it is about them using proper netiquette. We're all in this together using a shared resource which we would like to see boom over the following years. Good manners would go a long way towards that outcome.

I consider 1 satoshi* transactions that are basically equal to "LOL YOU LOSE" as spam.

* Recently been changed to 5000, but it's the same thing.

^ 100% agreed, is about netiquette within a shared medium. Think at it like a crowded room where someone starts farting continuously and pollutes all the air  

Btw, someone knows C++ programming? I need to have some features done for my bitcoin wallet, even if Gavin would not see them as crucial. Please add to the reward if you would like to see it done too.

[Killdozer]

On December 23, 2011, VisaNet processed 11,000 / second - source http://blog.visa.com/2011/01/12/visa-transactions-hit-peak-on-dec-23/ - That's 950,400,000 transactions per day.

At 24,000 SD transactions per day is .002525% of that traffic. Said another way, Bitcoin is nowhere near ready for the global stage if 1,000 dust transactions per hour grinds the system to a halt.

If SD is a problem, fix bitcoin.

All trolling aside, this is the fucking truth.
We should be thankful to SatoshiDice for practically highlighting the scalability flaws of bitcoin (like hitting the soft block size limit). If the community starts shiting bricks when SatoshiDice sends a few transactions, what happens if someone starts sharing internet for microtransactions? Or when a real casino starts using bitcoin? Or whatever?

[Raoul Duke]

On December 23, 2011, VisaNet processed 11,000 / second - source http://blog.visa.com/2011/01/12/visa-transactions-hit-peak-on-dec-23/ - That's 950,400,000 transactions per day.

At 24,000 SD transactions per day is .002525% of that traffic. Said another way, Bitcoin is nowhere near ready for the global stage if 1,000 dust transactions per hour grinds the system to a halt.

If SD is a problem, fix bitcoin.

All trolling aside, this is the fucking truth.
We should be thankful to SatoshiDice for practically highlighting the scalability flaws of bitcoin (like hitting the soft block size limit). If the community starts shiting bricks when SatoshiDice sends a few transactions, what happens if someone starts sharing internet for microtransactions? Or when a real casino starts using bitcoin? Or whatever?

A real real casino? One with deposit and withdrawal pages and it's own accounting ledger?

[solex]

I have never played Satoshi Dice, and view their transactions as spam, but I also view them as doing an VALUABLE SERVICE for Bitcoin and don't think it should be disrupted.  I would be happy that a patch exists, but would also leave it disabled myself.

Without Satoshi Dice, we are left to guesstimate what will happen when we start reaching limits.

With Satoshi Dice, we reach those limits in a non-committal way.  We get to find out how Bitcoin reacts under load, using a load that is for all intents and purposes optional.

If at some point Bitcoin becomes disrupted by transaction load (something I pretty much expect will happen eventually), we always have the option of throwing out the Satoshi Dice noise long enough to re-engineer Bitcoin to handle more activity.  This is far better than reaching those limits with brick-and-mortar business activity that will turn off the business community if they end up being the guinea pigs for Bitcoin's scalability.

Because of Satoshi Dice, people are considering how to prune the blockchain and how to make a client function with a UTXO set rather than mandating everyone be a historian - something I'm afraid would be nowhere as progressed were it not for this game.

+1000

casascius. I think this description should on the newbie FAQ so that at least the discussion starts from a useful level, instead of the basement each time.

[blockbet.net]

Here's the iceberg:

On December 23, 2011, VisaNet processed 11,000 / second - source http://blog.visa.com/2011/01/12/visa-transactions-hit-peak-on-dec-23/ - That's 950,400,000 transactions per day.

At 24,000 SD transactions per day is .002525% of that traffic. Said another way, Bitcoin is nowhere near ready for the global stage if 1,000 dust transactions per hour grinds the system to a halt.

If SD is a problem, fix bitcoin.

I have no idea if a thousand transactions is anywhere near the truth, it's just a number that I threw up there. But if you want to compare it to Visa, then, imagine if out of those 950 million Visa transactions per day, 800 million were coming from your local burger shop, from a handful of people who do nothing but swipe their Visa cards again and again and again. Seems fair? Point is, a handful of people are hogging a gigantic piece of the network, and it's affecting all of us. It is not "bringing the system to a halt", but it's certainly not helping (well, stress test is useful but that's more of a by-product).

I'm glad to see SD has already taken some steps to fix the issue, even if you insist that there never was an issue. I do agree that we need to fix bitcoin itself, but in the meanwhile, there has to be communication within the community as well.

[Elwar]

I cannot wait to start banning more companies from using Bitcoin.

Should we -really- be accepting transactions from Silk Road? They are giving us a bad rep.

And what about a patch to stop BitPay from using Bitcoin. They are just exploiting the early weakness of Bitcoin being too difficult for merchants to implement as a payment service.

This is great.

[sinner]

Let me get this straight--are some of you saying I cant play Satoshi Dice?

[simonk83]

How about banning SatoshiDice from Bitcoin and let them move to litecoin?
I'd vote for that.

Oh, I almost forgot! The ticker for Satoshi Dice if you think it's a great investment is s.dice on the mpex exchange.

Yeah, you're super neutral in this whole argument aren't you.   

[Raoul Duke]

I cannot wait to start banning more companies from using Bitcoin.

Should we -really- be accepting transactions from Silk Road? They are giving us a bad rep.

And what about a patch to stop BitPay from using Bitcoin. They are just exploiting the early weakness of Bitcoin being too difficult for merchants to implement as a payment service.

This is great.

Except Silk Road or Bitpay don't use always the same n addresses to receive their transactions and leave recognizable "footprints" everywhere...

[asdf]

Miners will ultimately have to deal with the resources consumed by tx spam. All they have to do is raise the fee for spamy transactions, if they are making a loss on them.

[BootyCall]

Lets say two of my mates and I decide to go for a drive one lovely day.  We each drive our own autos side by side across all three lanes of the highway at the minimum speed allowed by law forcing all others behind us to travel at the same low speed.  Assuming we do not block emergency workers we are not violating any laws (at least not where I live) but this does not justify our actions.  We are indeed injuring others.  (Using the word "injuring" here in the libertarian sense, very intentionally. <looks at Erik>)  For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.  SD is free to do as they please and the community is free to react as they see fit.

[pyra-proxy]

Let me get this straight--are some of you saying I cant play Satoshi Dice?

No they are saying they don't want to use their cpu/storage space processing the wasteful transactions that Satoshi Dice is making unnecessarily.

[pyra-proxy]

They are just exploiting the early weakness of Bitcoin being too difficult for merchants to implement as a payment service.

You know as well as any you can't compare Bitpay in this manner... bitpay makes necessary transactions to conduct business and is NOT exploiting bitcoin, heck if it weren't for bitpay I suspect the value of Bitcoin right now would be an order of magnitude lower.  They offer a well implemented, very valuable service... you know a payment service for merchants...  i.e. giving merchants an alternative or complementary service to Visa/Mastercard/Discover payment gateways which gets them involved in the Bitcoin world....

Can you explain how this relates to Satoshi Dice's wasteful usage of transaction "messages" on the block chain consuming near ?80%? of the entire space allocated for transactions for everyone?

[Elwar]

I cannot wait to start banning more companies from using Bitcoin.

Should we -really- be accepting transactions from Silk Road? They are giving us a bad rep.

And what about a patch to stop BitPay from using Bitcoin. They are just exploiting the early weakness of Bitcoin being too difficult for merchants to implement as a payment service.

This is great.

Except Silk Road or Bitpay don't use always the same n addresses to receive their transactions and leave recognizable "footprints" everywhere...

Ahh, gotcha.

So, try to use many addresses so that the community will not come after you.

I wonder how long it will take before we just split all of the large bitcoin wallets amongst ourselves. It will solve the hoarding thing. And those rich bastards do not really deserve it anyway.

This is great fun. We are like the government of Bitcoin, passing down regulations when we do not like the way someone uses our system.

Who should we go after next?

[Raoul Duke]

This is great fun. We are like the government of Bitcoin, passing down regulations when we do not like the way someone uses our system.

Regulations? You trippin', chap? You should stop with that Silk Road acid, it's damaging your last neuron.

[solex]

This is great fun. We are like the government of Bitcoin, passing down regulations when we do not like the way someone uses our system.

Regulations? You trippin', chap? You should stop with that Silk Road acid, it's damaging your last neuron.

LOL. Just brilliant.

[marhjan]

Look,  other than being a satoshidice shareholder,  I'm completely neutral here.  I can't tell the bitcoin police how to do their job any more than they can tell me to shut my mouth.  I'm a citizen, I pay my taxes, and I deserve a little bit more respect than you are giving me.  I voted to outlaw the ban on satoshi dice. What's the problem?

"Other than being..."  this made me LOL.   There are NO bitcoin police - talking about bans here is just absurd.  Some miners may choose not to relay SD transactions - if enough of them do so SD will likely have to transform their business practices.  This is a free market = good.  "Banning the ban" makes me wonder if you understand the bitcoin protocol at all honestly - and this 'little bit more respect you deserve'  meh - prove it.

[Raoul Duke]

Look,  other than being a satoshidice shareholder,  I'm completely neutral here.  I can't tell the bitcoin police how to do their job any more than they can tell me to shut my mouth.  I'm a citizen, I pay my taxes, and I deserve a little bit more respect than you are giving me.  I voted to outlaw the ban on satoshi dice. What's the problem?

"Other than being..."  this made me LOL.   There are NO bitcoin police - talking about bans here is just absurd.  Some miners may choose not to relay SD transactions - if enough of them do so SD will likely have to transform their business practices.  This is a free market = good.  "Banning the ban" makes me wonder if you understand the bitcoin protocol at all honestly - and this 'little bit more respect you deserve'  meh - prove it.

I think he meant "some fucking respect", à lá Patrick Stratteman.

[DoomDumas]

a patch ?

This is non-sense.. Bitcoin will evolve, dont bug that much on this issue.  Evolution to cope with a larger tx volume is necessary.. Now or later.  A patch ?  WTF !
Bitcoin network will be modified, this will make Bitcoin more ready for the futur usage by more and more user.

SDice just bring the issue up front sooner...

Normal evolution.. Please stop whining and developing patches, those are no good for the community, and the evolution of the network.

Do you notice that MrBigg got more and more Ignored !  He's also the one who compain the most about the scaling issue !

Please do not dramatise, bring constructive solutions, not a patch to segragate the network.. this is toxic.

This was my "punch in the face" vote !