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Author Topic: Economically Unspendable Outputs: A Problem On The Radar  (Read 16348 times)
ShadowOfHarbringer
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March 10, 2013, 12:06:20 PM
 #201

The city has decided that to prevent pissing in an alley, they will impose a $1 fee anytime someone goes into it. The goal is to stop pissing in the alley, and $1 was chosen as a price that wouldn't be too harmful to legitimate alley use. The cost of cleaning up piss in the alley is still at least $7.
Now a bar (DiceBar) opens up next door to the alley. Instead of operating a bathroom, they've decided it's cheaper for them to just add the $1 fee to all their customers' bills as a surcharge, and have customers go piss in the alley instead.
While a few customers leave in disgust at this policy, most of them are drunk (gambling addiction) and go piss in the alley, never giving it a second thought. There are a few who stand up for DiceBar - they say that since the bar is "paying" the fee, they have the right to use the alley as a bathroom.

This is wrong way of thinking. Your example is not adjusted to Bitcoin's reality and therefore irrelevant.

Bitcoin network does not exist in the real world, where some social rules (like a fine for pissing in the alley) must be created to stop socially-unacceptable behavior. We are past that.
The Bitcoin network was designed to cope exactly with people breaking social rules.

Paraphrasing your example:
In the Bitcoin world the valley is completely robotic & automatic so therefore no stupid laws are required to make it work. To fix the problem algorithms of the valley should be changed to automatically drive away people trying to piss in it !


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Luke-Jr
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March 10, 2013, 12:11:28 PM
 #202

The city has decided that to prevent pissing in an alley, they will impose a $1 fee anytime someone goes into it. The goal is to stop pissing in the alley, and $1 was chosen as a price that wouldn't be too harmful to legitimate alley use. The cost of cleaning up piss in the alley is still at least $7.
Now a bar (DiceBar) opens up next door to the alley. Instead of operating a bathroom, they've decided it's cheaper for them to just add the $1 fee to all their customers' bills as a surcharge, and have customers go piss in the alley instead.
While a few customers leave in disgust at this policy, most of them are drunk (gambling addiction) and go piss in the alley, never giving it a second thought. There are a few who stand up for DiceBar - they say that since the bar is "paying" the fee, they have the right to use the alley as a bathroom.

This is wrong way of thinking. Your example is not adjusted to Bitcoin's reality and therefore irrelevant.

Bitcoin network does not exist in the real world, where some social rules (like a fine for pissing in the alley) must be created to stop socially-unacceptable behavior. We are past that.
The Bitcoin network was designed to cope exactly with people breaking social rules.

Paraphrasing your example:
In the Bitcoin world the valley is completely robotic & automatic so therefore no stupid laws are required to make it work. To fix the problem algorithms of the valley should be changed to automatically drive away people trying to piss in it !
Your delusions are not an alternative "Bitcoin's reality", no matter how "idealistic" you try to make them. There is only one reality, and Bitcoin is just another currency within it.
Bitcoin was designed to cope with people breaking (some) rules by having other people filter it out.
While completely robotic anti-spam would be nice, it's not something this era has managed to achieve.

ShadowOfHarbringer
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March 10, 2013, 12:29:53 PM
 #203

The city has decided that to prevent pissing in an alley, they will impose a $1 fee anytime someone goes into it. The goal is to stop pissing in the alley, and $1 was chosen as a price that wouldn't be too harmful to legitimate alley use. The cost of cleaning up piss in the alley is still at least $7.
Now a bar (DiceBar) opens up next door to the alley. Instead of operating a bathroom, they've decided it's cheaper for them to just add the $1 fee to all their customers' bills as a surcharge, and have customers go piss in the alley instead.
While a few customers leave in disgust at this policy, most of them are drunk (gambling addiction) and go piss in the alley, never giving it a second thought. There are a few who stand up for DiceBar - they say that since the bar is "paying" the fee, they have the right to use the alley as a bathroom.

This is wrong way of thinking. Your example is not adjusted to Bitcoin's reality and therefore irrelevant.

Bitcoin network does not exist in the real world, where some social rules (like a fine for pissing in the alley) must be created to stop socially-unacceptable behavior. We are past that.
The Bitcoin network was designed to cope exactly with people breaking social rules.

Paraphrasing your example:
In the Bitcoin world the valley is completely robotic & automatic so therefore no stupid laws are required to make it work. To fix the problem algorithms of the valley should be changed to automatically drive away people trying to piss in it !

Your delusions are not an alternative "Bitcoin's reality",

If you think that you can pressure ANYBODY into doing ANYTHING in a world consisting of darknets, peer-to-peer, mathematics, hardcore cryptography, crypto-geeks, ancarchists, libertarians, hardcore goldbugs & deflationists, then it is clearly you who is delusional.

You cannot tell anybody here (including SatoshiDICE) to do ANYTHING. Deal with it.

no matter how "idealistic" you try to make them. There is only one reality, and Bitcoin is just another currency within it.

Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.

People are always the weakest link in chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections.

While completely robotic anti-spam would be nice, it's not something this era has managed to achieve.

Completely robotic anti-spam is the only way out of this situation.

SatoshiDICE is completely nothing compared to an evil, powerful & determined attacker having hundereds millions of dollars avaiable. So if SatoshiDICE is a problem which cannot be solved using algorithms, that means Bitcoin was a failure from the start.

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March 10, 2013, 12:33:50 PM
 #204

Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.

People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections.
No. This is your delusion. Even if other nuts share it, it isn't reality.

While completely robotic anti-spam would be nice, it's not something this era has managed to achieve.
Completely robotic anti-spam is the only way out of this situation.
Then Bitcoin is doomed to fail.

SatoshiDICE is completely nothing compared to an evil, powerful & determined attacker having hundereds millions of dollars avaiable.
On the contrary, that is exactly what SatoshiDice is.

phelix
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March 10, 2013, 12:40:07 PM
 #205

The city has decided that to prevent pissing in an alley, they will impose a $1 fee anytime someone goes into it. The goal is to stop pissing in the alley, and $1 was chosen as a price that wouldn't be too harmful to legitimate alley use. The cost of cleaning up piss in the alley is still at least $7.
Now a bar (DiceBar) opens up next door to the alley. Instead of operating a bathroom, they've decided it's cheaper for them to just add the $1 fee to all their customers' bills as a surcharge, and have customers go piss in the alley instead.
While a few customers leave in disgust at this policy, most of them are drunk (gambling addiction) and go piss in the alley, never giving it a second thought. There are a few who stand up for DiceBar - they say that since the bar is "paying" the fee, they have the right to use the alley as a bathroom.

This is wrong way of thinking. Your example is not adjusted to Bitcoin's reality and therefore irrelevant.
[...]
+1

Bitcoin does not come with a manual or even a contract. Also there is no "city" == central authority. who gets to decide what is morally ok? There are no rules to Bitcoin so everything is allowed.
ShadowOfHarbringer
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March 10, 2013, 12:43:17 PM
 #206

Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.

People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections.
No. This is your delusion. Even if other nuts share it, it isn't reality.

It isn't reality ? Then we can make it reality. Impossible is nothing.
30 years ago if you asked anybody and told them about smartphones or how today's internet works, they would probably burn you at the stake.

We, the "other nuts" go boldly in the future and fix the world with our crypto-mathematics. If you don't want to be part of it, them I am sorry for your loss.

While completely robotic anti-spam would be nice, it's not something this era has managed to achieve.
Completely robotic anti-spam is the only way out of this situation.
Then Bitcoin is doomed to fail.

Last time i checked, there were at least three different possible solutions to this problem presented on the forums, so excuse me if I won't take your word for that.

SatoshiDICE is completely nothing compared to an evil, powerful & determined attacker having hundereds millions of dollars avaiable.
On the contrary, that is exactly what SatoshiDice is.

Then perhaps you should stop wasting time whining around like a crybaby and try to find a mathematic solution instead.
Because your (and misterbigg's) posts are like "OH NOES, SDICE IS GONNA KILL US ALL SBDY STOP THEM OMG OMG OMG !!!!!1111one"


Luke-Jr
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March 10, 2013, 12:45:23 PM
 #207

Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.

People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections.
No. This is your delusion. Even if other nuts share it, it isn't reality.

It isn't reality ? Then we can make it reality. Impossible is nothing.
No thanks, as bad as the current governments are, what you propose is far worse.

phelix
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March 10, 2013, 12:45:41 PM
 #208

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If they can send spam, then it is a problem of the network. The network should not allow them to do that or it should make it unfeasible/uneconomic. If it doesn't do that, it needs to be fixed.

This actually reminds me a lot of the logic behind a large games company never fixing something, when they discover a blatantly abused glitch or bug, their response the majority of the time is to run around banning people and locking threads pointing it out. Instead of just fix it which in the long run would be far easier and make them more money because then people could keep playing the game.

Where the fuck do people get off this logic that making a problem illegal or banning it fixes everything? It seems to be a commonly accepted and wrong piece of reasoning everywhere.
it is because people are shortsighted
ShadowOfHarbringer
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March 10, 2013, 12:47:07 PM
 #209

Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.

People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections.
No. This is your delusion. Even if other nuts share it, it isn't reality.

It isn't reality ? Then we can make it reality. Impossible is nothing.
No thanks, as bad as the current governments are, what you propose is far worse.

To be clear...  what is that am I proposing, exactly ?

phelix
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March 10, 2013, 12:49:50 PM
 #210

SatoshiDICE is completely nothing compared to an evil, powerful & determined attacker having hundereds millions of dollars avaiable.
On the contrary, that is exactly what SatoshiDice is.
Satoshidice started from zero. It can be easily cloned with little effort.
Uglux
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March 10, 2013, 12:51:45 PM
 #211

The Bitcoin network was designed to cope exactly with people breaking social rules.

We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.

Sorry, but you are creating this world only in your head.

I doubt, that your bitcoin world will ever find algorithms that stop socially-unacceptable behaviour like...slavery. That "stupid social rules" are everything, that stands between you and and the wild jungle of self interest.
Bitcoin is just another tool, the responsibility of its usage is still with its users.
ShadowOfHarbringer
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March 10, 2013, 12:55:59 PM
 #212

The Bitcoin network was designed to cope exactly with people breaking social rules.

We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.

Sorry, but you are creating this world only in your head.

I doubt, that your bitcoin world will ever find algorithms that stop socially-unacceptable behaviour like...slavery. That "stupid social rules" are everything, that stands between you and and the wild jungle of self interest.
Bitcoin is just another tool, the responsibility of its usage is still with its users.

Ok, I admit didn't make myself clear enough.

What i meant the algorithms of Bitcoin are here to stop people from breaking currency-related social rules like the following:
- Double spending
- Forgery
- Thievery (to a level, when combined with encryption / truecrypt)
- Money creation & devaluation by governments and banks - which is also thievery by inflation

Bitcoin solves these things automatically and internally without using stupid social rules, without the need of central authorities and/or lawyers.

Amitabh S
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March 10, 2013, 01:02:37 PM
 #213

Isn't it possible to currently send transactions with zero fee?
So why are those small amounts "ecomically unspendable"?

Coinsecure referral ID: https://coinsecure.in/signup/refamit (use this link to signup)
ShadowOfHarbringer
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March 10, 2013, 01:03:50 PM
 #214

Bumping for great justice.

@Luke-Jr:

Would you kindly answer my last question, Sir ? I still await your answer.

Luke-Jr
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March 10, 2013, 01:04:09 PM
 #215

Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.

People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections.
No. This is your delusion. Even if other nuts share it, it isn't reality.

It isn't reality ? Then we can make it reality. Impossible is nothing.
No thanks, as bad as the current governments are, what you propose is far worse.

To be clear...  what is that am I proposing, exactly ?
"A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured"

ShadowOfHarbringer
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March 10, 2013, 01:08:33 PM
 #216

Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.

People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections.
No. This is your delusion. Even if other nuts share it, it isn't reality.

It isn't reality ? Then we can make it reality. Impossible is nothing.
No thanks, as bad as the current governments are, what you propose is far worse.

To be clear...  what is that am I proposing, exactly ?
"A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured"

Isn't this kind of what Bitcoin was created for ?
Isn't this kind of what Bitcoin market currently is ?
Isn't this kind of what libertarianism is all about ?

Doesn't that statement make you kind of an enemy of the whole Bitcoin concept (and libertarian spandpoint) by the way ?

You are still with us, or against us, because now I don't exactly see your position clearly ?

Luke-Jr
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March 10, 2013, 01:15:24 PM
 #217

Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.

People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections.
No. This is your delusion. Even if other nuts share it, it isn't reality.

It isn't reality ? Then we can make it reality. Impossible is nothing.
No thanks, as bad as the current governments are, what you propose is far worse.

To be clear...  what is that am I proposing, exactly ?
"A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured"

Isn't this kind of what Bitcoin was created for ?
Isn't this kind of what Bitcoin market currently is ?
Isn't this kind of what libertarianism is all about ?

Doesn't that statement make you kind of an enemy of the whole Bitcoin concept (and libertarian spandpoint) by the way ?

You are still with us, or against us, because now I don't exactly see your position clearly ?
No, on the first two.
Libertarismism is not anti-government, just minimal government. And Bitcoin is not the same thing as libertarianism.
I will freely admit to being an enemy of libertarianism. The form of government that seems to work out best in practice is a monarchy.

ShadowOfHarbringer
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March 10, 2013, 01:17:30 PM
 #218

Wrong on all counts. There are two realities. The "realworld-reality", and "Internet-reality".
I wonder how didn't you notice that before. We are creating a new, better world here. A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured automatically using mathematic algorithms which are better than stupid social rules, because they cannot be broken easily.

People are always the weakest chain and that is the reason Bitcoin exists: to route around human imperfections.
No. This is your delusion. Even if other nuts share it, it isn't reality.

It isn't reality ? Then we can make it reality. Impossible is nothing.
No thanks, as bad as the current governments are, what you propose is far worse.

To be clear...  what is that am I proposing, exactly ?
"A world where free market without government intervention is created and ensured"

Isn't this kind of what Bitcoin was created for ?
Isn't this kind of what Bitcoin market currently is ?
Isn't this kind of what libertarianism is all about ?

Doesn't that statement make you kind of an enemy of the whole Bitcoin concept (and libertarian spandpoint) by the way ?

You are still with us, or against us, because now I don't exactly see your position clearly ?
No, on the first two.
Libertarismism is not anti-government, just minimal government. And Bitcoin is not the same thing as libertarianism.
I will freely admit to being an enemy of libertarianism. The form of government that seems to work out best in practice is a monarchy.

If you are enemy of Libertarianism, the you are an enemy of Bitcoin as well.
Because Bitcoin is all about libertarianism and crypto-anarchy ?

I don't get it. How come you are even a Bitcoin developer with such views/outlooks ?

Luke-Jr
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March 10, 2013, 01:25:14 PM
 #219

If you are enemy of Libertarianism, the you are an enemy of Bitcoin as well.
Because Bitcoin is all about libertarianism and crypto-anarchy ?
No, Bitcoin is just a currency immune to inflation, and easy to use online.
While most developers would probably prefer libertarianism, I don't think you will find any who support ignoring taxes/laws/regulations.

I don't get it. How come you are even a Bitcoin developer with such views/outlooks ?
Bitcoin is a perfect fit to enable a tonal currency in lieu of government adoption.
I dislike inflation as much as the next person, of course.

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March 10, 2013, 01:27:05 PM
 #220

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If you are enemy of Libertarianism, the you are an enemy of Bitcoin as well.
Because Bitcoin is all about libertarianism and crypto-anarchy ?


Bitcoin is a technology and a protocol. If you think it's political, well then, look at the gif again.

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