Why does no one use the BitShares Exchange DEX?

[brekyrself]

I'm not looking for a technical discussion between PoS, PoW, etc... but rather fundamentally why traders and speculators are not using the DEX provided by BitShares?  Bag holders need not apply to this discussion.  BitShares does have additional functionality which can bring usage to the SmartCoins, UIA's etc... however I am only wondering about crypto traders at this point in time.


My thoughts and questions without getting into politics:

-Liquidity is a major problem however this is a chicken and egg problem.

-With liquidity, any market can exist on a completely open system.  BitFacebook, BitNasdaq, BitOil etc...  Yes we are talking options and at this point in time we can not take delivery of the physical good however the sky is the limit and we do not know where this technology will take us.  The entire world financial market looks to be headed into chaos.  Think:  increased taxes, capital controls, frozen accounts.

-After seeing all the other exchanges nonsense why do people still use these proprietary systems?  We have no idea what is going on behind the scenes.  Recently with ETH prices going through the rough at polo, one begins to wonder is there some sort of willy bot going on again?  The BTS wallet flips this on the head and should make the exchanges fight for your business getting into and out of the BTS ecosystem.  Take a look at the deposit and withdraw screen so see what I mean.  3rd party exchanges simply become a gateway and not a huge target for hackers etc...  You have the ability to deposit/withdraw other crypto directly from the web based wallet.  Can operate as a bridge, gateway, or even with fiat via OpenLedger.

-Are traders actually withdrawing their funds for long term storage hence becoming speculators or are they leaving it on 3rd party exchanges?

-Original 0.xx wallet was very slow and almost impossible to use on slower computers.  This has been fixed in 2.0 with a very fast web socket based wallet.  Trades in ~3 seconds, fair for everyone.


I've had my head in crypto for a few years now and understand that real world usage will drive adoption, perhaps not even by the best technologically advanced "coin."  I do not understand the hatred between crypto followers in this space and why completely opposite projects need to be against one another.  In the real world, multiple chains will find their niche market.

[Malayko]

Bitshares just feels overcomplicated and not friendly to use. If it had as much potential as you seem think it does wouldn't the price reflect this? Instead it has done nothing but crash in price since release.

[brekyrself]

Bitshares just feels overcomplicated and not friendly to use. If it had as much potential as you seem think it does wouldn't the price reflect this? Instead it has done nothing but crash in price since release.

Thanks for the feedback.  It did take me awhile to wrap my head around the concepts, just as BTC did when I first learned of it.  I'm not exactly concerned with the price of BTS, but why no one is using it.  I put some play money in and has been a positive experience.  I do see real world potential with BitShares, just as I do with a few other crypto experiments.

When I read daily on how corrupt the world we live in is, I want to see crypto become mainstream.

See:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-23/cme-admits-futures-trading-was-rigged-under-old-system

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-08/how-irs-used-civil-asset-forfeiture-ruin-lives-two-connecticut-bakers

[fartbags]

Because DEX trades tokens on the bitshares blockchain. People like to buy the blockchains actual token. There is a huge difference.

[yvv]

Because DEX trades tokens on the bitshares blockchain. People like to buy the blockchains actual token. There is a huge difference.

Every exchange trades tokens in their own ledger, not actual tokens. You don't own funds which you trade until you withdraw them from the exchange. Bitshares is different because it is decentralized. You keep tokens issued by gateways in your personal wallet, not in gateway's wallet. You actually own them. This does not remove a counter party risk though. In bitshares, you have an option to keep bitAssets, which removes a counter party risk completely.

[brekyrself]

Because DEX trades tokens on the bitshares blockchain. People like to buy the blockchains actual token. There is a huge difference.

While true, simply day trading are the users ever going to withdraw the actual token?  Just like real world options, no one actually takes delivery of that option.  The exchange is just giving you an IOU in which you must trust they have your balance available.

Perhaps we need to divide this into two categories.  Trading tokens such as BitBTC vs BitGold.

Additionally, take a look at the deposit/withdraw page in the wallet.  With OpenLedger you can go direct from the Open.Asset to the real token or vice versa.  IE deposit BTC and receive Open.BTC which can be traded against other pairs.  When you think of the big picture these exchanges such as OpenLedger have motivation to compete for your business.

[Rick M]

Im supporting Bitshares Exchange , this is the future for sure market pegged asset, is a must be in control of your funds, we are lacking liquidity but its slowly growing, when we talk about Dex even slowly bitshares is leading.

The price o bts is not a concern, most experienced speculators know what can come from this if you take a look around n compare things.....

is there a topic for bts in ann?

regards n support bitshares big thing in crypto

[TravelsAsia]

Bitshares just feels overcomplicated and not friendly to use.

For the novice user, it doesn't feel intuitive.

[iamnotback]

I'm not looking for a technical discussion between PoS, PoW, etc... but rather fundamentally why traders and speculators are not using the DEX provided by BitShares?

My thoughts and questions without getting into politics:

-Liquidity is a major problem however this is a chicken and egg problem.

Because DEX trades tokens on the bitshares blockchain. People like to buy the blockchains actual token. There is a huge difference.

While true, simply day trading are the users ever going to withdraw the actual token?  Just like real world options, no one actually takes delivery of that option.  The exchange is just giving you an IOU in which you must trust they have your balance available.

Perhaps we need to divide this into two categories.  Trading tokens such as BitBTC vs BitGold.

Additionally, take a look at the deposit/withdraw page in the wallet.  With OpenLedger you can go direct from the Open.Asset to the real token or vice versa.  IE deposit BTC and receive Open.BTC which can be traded against other pairs.  When you think of the big picture these exchanges such as OpenLedger have motivation to compete for your business.

My wild guess for reasons are:

1. Traders want to be where the most liquidity is.

2. Traders probably see no benefit to DEX that relies on federation and trust, thus isn't really immune to the risk of an exchange. They may in fact trust such exotic new tech less and besides they really don't need DEX.

3. BitAssets pegs are most certainly lossy.

4. Why learn some complex new thing which might have bugs lurking. Better to trust what most other speculators are already using. No real incentive to switch.

5. Probably concerns about how the DEX can perform in real-time during volatile market movements and overload of volume.

Etc, etc.

The marketing error that most developers make is, "build it and they will come".

The successful marketers of altcoins have built a good hype bubble.

I have seen 0 altcoins that gained a great following and adoption due to building something truly functionally awesome.

[tokeweed]

I'm not looking for a technical discussion between PoS, PoW, etc... but rather fundamentally why traders and speculators are not using the DEX provided by BitShares?

My thoughts and questions without getting into politics:

-Liquidity is a major problem however this is a chicken and egg problem.

Because DEX trades tokens on the bitshares blockchain. People like to buy the blockchains actual token. There is a huge difference.

While true, simply day trading are the users ever going to withdraw the actual token?  Just like real world options, no one actually takes delivery of that option.  The exchange is just giving you an IOU in which you must trust they have your balance available.

Perhaps we need to divide this into two categories.  Trading tokens such as BitBTC vs BitGold.

Additionally, take a look at the deposit/withdraw page in the wallet.  With OpenLedger you can go direct from the Open.Asset to the real token or vice versa.  IE deposit BTC and receive Open.BTC which can be traded against other pairs.  When you think of the big picture these exchanges such as OpenLedger have motivation to compete for your business.

My wild guess for reasons are:

1. Traders want to be where the most liquidity is.

2. Traders probably see no benefit to DEX that relies on federation and trust, thus isn't really immune to the risk of an exchange. They may in fact trust such exotic new tech less and besides they really don't need DEX.

3. BitAssets pegs are most certainly lossy.

4. Why learn some complex new thing which might have bugs lurking. Better to trust what most other speculators are already using. No real incentive to switch.

5. Probably concerns about how the DEX can perform in real-time during volatile market movements and overload of volume.

Etc, etc.

I agree.  Liquidity is a big factor for active traders.  Why would a trader make the switch when they're already making profit in Polo or Kraken.  You see, traders go where they can make money, they don't trade somewhere because it's "awesome" or decentralized.  It's all about the game.

The marketing error that most developers make is, "build it and they will come".

The successful marketers of altcoins have built a good hype bubble.

I have seen 0 altcoins that gained a great following and adoption due to building something truly functionally awesome.

Again, I agree.  Marketing the platform really well is a must if you want people to flock and use it.  But before you get the traders, you have to attract the whales and the newbies first in order for the traders to have an incentive to use DEX.  So marketing DEX to people outside of crypto should be the goal.  But I don't see the mainstream getting into crypto within 5 - 10 years.

So we're back again to the chicken and egg problem.

[iamnotback]

tokeweed, it is always about the marketing. A venture must understand the main motivations of the target demographic. Producing better technology for technology's sake is why most technical people suck at entrepreneurial ventures. You must understand very well the motivations of your potential users. Programmers tend to love understanding technology more than understanding people.

Thanks for the confirming.

My talent is that I am am adept at technology, people motivation, and economic theory. I can often combine those three into new paradigm shifts. I am still trying to create my first big paradigm shift in the altcoin arena. I think I may have finally discovered it last night while I was sleeping. I awoke and realized I have figured out the killer app for smart block chains that millions of investors and entreprenuers really need which can not be serviced by a centralized solution such as Seedr or Kickstarter! The key insight came from studying my own insight into the key macro economic flaw of The DAO.

[brekyrself]

tokeweed, it is always about the marketing. A venture must understand the main motivations of the target demographic. Producing better technology for technology's sake is why most technical people suck at entrepreneurial ventures. You must understand very well the motivations of your potential users. Programmers tend to love understanding technology more than understanding people.

Thanks for the confirming.

My talent is that I am am adept at technology, people motivation, and economic theory. I can often combine those three into new paradigm shifts. I am still trying to create my first big paradigm shift in the altcoin arena. I think I may have finally discovered it last night while I was sleeping. I awoke and realized I have figured out the killer app for smart block chains that millions of investors and entreprenuers really need which can not be serviced by a centralized solution such as Seedr or Kickstarter! The key insight came from studying my own insight into the key macro economic flaw of The DAO.

I'm curious to see what you come up with.

All the comments further my recent thought process about mainstream adoption of crypto.  I do not believe the average Joe posting 15 selfies on facebook is going out of their way to use crypto.  The question becomes how do we advance crypto behind the scenes of everyday life.  Us crypto nerds will appreciate the benefits while the heard will just go about their daily routines.

This is why I was curious as to why traders/speculators educated in crypto are not using a system such as BitShares.  Thanks for the constructive feedback and not derailing this thread.  I'm not excluding my thought process on other projects however figured BitShares would have a solid internal trading volume because of its additional utility.  Projects such as Monero in my mind are targeting an even smaller niche privacy market at this point in time thus it's usage volume should reflect that.

Even with many years gone by, were still on the ground floor and it will be interesting to see where this all ends up.

[iamnotback]

I'm itching to reply to you! But I have to bite my tongue for now.

I could just starting talking about my ideas and try to raise a lot of money for vaporware to build them. But it seems that Vitalik et al are much better at that than I am. I can't fly to the USA and do talks at conferences right now. I think I better to just try to release something that is already developed. That would be more within my style, but I also know how to talk a good talk when the time is right for that. There is a video of me linked some where on BCT (probably Ethereum Paradox thread).

In a perfect world, I'd have a super compatible and dedicated co-developer right now. But I don't know who he is. I talk with jl777 but he has his own project already. And he is exclusively C code.

[brekyrself]

I'm itching to reply to you! But I have to bite my tongue for now.

I could just starting talking about my ideas and try to raise a lot of money for vaporware to build them. But it seems that Vitalik et al are much better at that than I am. I can't fly to the USA and do talks at conferences right now. I think I better to just try to release something that is already developed. That would be more within my style, but I also know how to talk a good talk when the time is right for that. There is a video of me linked some where on BCT (probably Ethereum Paradox thread).

In a perfect world, I'd have a super compatible and dedicated co-developer right now. But I don't know who he is. I talk with jl777 but he has his own project already. And he is exclusively C code.

Without getting into politics on coin algorithms can you build your product on an existing chain to speed up development?  While it may not be ideal, it would bring the product to life much quicker and if successful you may be able to attract other developers to later build a new chain from scratch?

I'll add another reason why I can see real world usage with BitShares, Nxt, or any chain that can do a UIA.  Endless possibilities for developers with these tokens.  One of the hottest area's in the bar and restaurant industry in regards to marketing and customer retention is rewards programs.  Spend x amount and get x amount off your next tab, simple.  This is all kept track via the customers credit card on the back end, 100% automated.  I could go on and on, just pointing out the fact there is much more to crypto then most think...

[iamnotback]

Without getting into politics on coin algorithms can you build your product on an existing chain to speed up development?

The idea from last night, yes I think so. I'm investigating that now. It is a tangent from the work I was doing.

However I probably can't monetize it for myself if I build it on another chain (unless I do it incorrectly as the DAO did, but then that kills the point of doing it). So it sort of kills my incentive to do it. But I am trying to think of a solution.

While it may not be ideal, it would bring the product to life much quicker and if successful you may be able to attract other developers to later build a new chain from scratch?

Exactly my thought. And it doesn't reveal my other work, just delays it.

I'll add another reason why I can see real world usage with BitShares, Nxt, or any chain that can do a UIA.  Endless possibilities for developers with these tokens.  One of the hottest area's in the bar and restaurant industry in regards to marketing and customer retention is rewards programs.  Spend x amount and get x amount off your next tab, simple.  This is all kept track via the customers credit card on the back end, 100% automated.  I could go on and on, just pointing out the fact there is much more to crypto then most think...

But the problem is have you identified something which can only be done well with crypto. Bitcoin is the only way to nefariously move funds electronically. Your use case has to be something that can't already be done well enough, otherwise users won't switch.

What is the pre-existing problem with credit cards and rewards programs that needs a solution? Because not everyone has a credit card? But then you have the chicken and egg dilemma.

[TravelsAsia]

Bitshares just feels overcomplicated and not friendly to use.

For the novice user, it doesn't feel intuitive.

thats why they invented Steemit.com

You don't have to know anything about crypto, drop your real name and poof you own a bitcoin that doesn't change in value relative to what you're used to.  How much more intuitive to the layman can you make it than that Satoshi?

https://steemit.com/introduceyourself/@cryptoctopus/the-secret-to-a-successful-introduceyourself-post--and-the-1-mistake-to-avoid

Steemit.  You mean that project that was 'fair' launched but not really?   I encourage everyone to visit the BitShares forum and investigate their fair lunch. 

[brekyrself]

Bitshares just feels overcomplicated and not friendly to use.

For the novice user, it doesn't feel intuitive.

thats why they invented Steemit.com

You don't have to know anything about crypto, drop your real name and poof you own a bitcoin that doesn't change in value relative to what you're used to.  How much more intuitive to the layman can you make it than that Satoshi?

https://steemit.com/introduceyourself/@cryptoctopus/the-secret-to-a-successful-introduceyourself-post--and-the-1-mistake-to-avoid

Steemit.  You mean that project that was 'fair' launched but not really?   I encourage everyone to visit the BitShares forum and investigate their fair lunch.  

Please stay on topic.  I am not commenting about the Steemit launch as I have not done the research.  I was however around for the BitShares launch as it was very fair.  All of this however is not the point.  I am not wondering about the price of BTS but why no one uses the exchange to speculate.

[yvv]

Saying "no one uses bitshares exchange" is not fair. Someones use it, including myself. Look at most liquid smartcoin markets like bitBTC, bitUSD, bitCNY. Peg to BTC, USD and CNY is not bad at all, which means that this shit is working. Trade volume is shameful, that's true. I guess, there are multiple reasons for this.

[TravelsAsia]

Bitshares just feels overcomplicated and not friendly to use.

For the novice user, it doesn't feel intuitive.

thats why they invented Steemit.com

You don't have to know anything about crypto, drop your real name and poof you own a bitcoin that doesn't change in value relative to what you're used to.  How much more intuitive to the layman can you make it than that Satoshi?

https://steemit.com/introduceyourself/@cryptoctopus/the-secret-to-a-successful-introduceyourself-post--and-the-1-mistake-to-avoid

Steemit.  You mean that project that was 'fair' launched but not really?   I encourage everyone to visit the BitShares forum and investigate their fair lunch.  

Please stay on topic.  I am not commenting about the Steemit launch as I have not done the research.  I was however around for the BitShares launch as it was very fair.  All of this however is not the point.  I am not wondering about the price of BTS but why no one uses the exchange to speculate.

Grab 3 friends and have them spend 10 minutes each on Polo and 10 minutes each on BitShares Dex. There, your question is quickly solved.

[iamnotback]

Without getting into politics on coin algorithms can you build your product on an existing chain to speed up development?

The idea from last night, yes I think so. I'm investigating that now. It is a tangent from the work I was doing.

However I probably can't monetize it for myself if I build it on another chain (unless I do it incorrectly as the DAO did, but then that kills the point of doing it). So it sort of kills my incentive to do it. But I am trying to think of a solution.

While it may not be ideal, it would bring the product to life much quicker and if successful you may be able to attract other developers to later build a new chain from scratch?

Exactly my thought. And it doesn't reveal my other work, just delays it.

Follow-up:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1505886.msg15250689#msg15250689

Also note the current hack of The DAO is a reason I'd probably not prefer to build anything on Ethereum. I don't trust the code of those inexperienced, wide-eyed youngsters.

Please take note of my discussion with smooth about the quality of the Bitshares coders.