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Mosper
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March 20, 2013, 07:44:27 PM |
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It encourages people to hoard their money and is not a good thing and this isn't even debatable it is one of those cold hard facts that guy with the issues was talking about.
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Me? I'm just the cynical voice floating in the sea of unchecked optimism.
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The trust scores you see are subjective; they will change depending on who you have in your trust list. |
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Isokivi (OP)
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March 20, 2013, 07:48:39 PM |
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I want to buy just to shut mosper up at this point  Oh noes! people will not buy with deflationary coin. agghhhh! the sky is falling. I'll be putting in an order near the end of the month. I'm saving for something I've wanted there for a long time. Deflationary money is so much better for saving for what you want instead of borrowing for what you want. It teaches discipline and will lead to greater wealth and security over time. That's a good thing. Couldnt have said it better myself. |
Bitcoin trinkets now on my online store: btc trinkets.com <- Bitcoin Tiepins, cufflinks, lapel pins, keychains, card holders and challenge coins. |
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silverfuture
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central banking = outdated protocol
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March 20, 2013, 08:35:27 PM |
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It encourages people to hoard their money and is not a good thing and this isn't even debatable it is one of those cold hard facts that guy with the issues was talking about.
Sounds more like butthurt that you didn't get some coins earlier to spend on nifty electronics now  |
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Mosper
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March 20, 2013, 08:36:31 PM |
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It encourages people to hoard their money and is not a good thing and this isn't even debatable it is one of those cold hard facts that guy with the issues was talking about.
Sounds more like butthurt that you didn't get some coins earlier to spend on nifty electronics now or does it sound like deflationary currency encourages people to hoard their money and this is an objectively bad thing for economies? edit: beyond that even if you were right about my reason for posting (you aren't) it would not make my statement any less true. There are some very stupid people involved in bitcointalk I see. edit2: |
Me? I'm just the cynical voice floating in the sea of unchecked optimism.
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Qoheleth
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Spurn wild goose chases. Seek that which endures.
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March 20, 2013, 08:44:39 PM |
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or does it sound like deflationary currency encourages people to hoard their money and this is an objectively bad thing for economies?
Define "deflationary currency" for the purposes of this conversation. |
If there is something that will make Bitcoin succeed, it is growth of utility - greater quantity and variety of goods and services offered for BTC. If there is something that will make Bitcoin fail, it is the prevalence of users convinced that BTC is a magic box that will turn them into millionaires, and of the con-artists who have followed them here to devour them.
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Mosper
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March 20, 2013, 08:50:20 PM |
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or does it sound like deflationary currency encourages people to hoard their money and this is an objectively bad thing for economies?
Define "deflationary currency" for the purposes of this conversation. The currency itself becomes more valuable per unit vs things being purchased with it rather than the items themselves decreasing in value/price. Same effect as deflation but taking place on the side of the currency instead of the goods. |
Me? I'm just the cynical voice floating in the sea of unchecked optimism.
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bencoder
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March 20, 2013, 09:00:56 PM |
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It encourages people to hoard their money and is not a good thing and this isn't even debatable it is one of those cold hard facts that guy with the issues was talking about.
Value goes up -> nobody spends due to hoarding nobody spends -> value goes down due to the currency being worthless. Do you think that it's at all possible that there could be an equilibrium here? Or do you somehow believe that the price will go up forever despite hoarding and no real use? |
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Qoheleth
Legendary
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Spurn wild goose chases. Seek that which endures.
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March 20, 2013, 09:03:28 PM |
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The currency itself becomes more valuable per unit vs things being purchased with it rather than the items themselves decreasing in value/price. Same effect as deflation but taking place on the side of the currency instead of the goods.
In other words, the BTC/USD exchange rate is getting pricier right now, so people don't want to spend BTC? Is there even anything that can be done about that? |
If there is something that will make Bitcoin succeed, it is growth of utility - greater quantity and variety of goods and services offered for BTC. If there is something that will make Bitcoin fail, it is the prevalence of users convinced that BTC is a magic box that will turn them into millionaires, and of the con-artists who have followed them here to devour them.
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meowmeowbrowncow
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March 20, 2013, 09:06:57 PM |
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I wish I had the need or resources to buy something there.
Maybe put a flash sign somewhere on the forum asking that people support it by diverting half of their NewEgg, etc., spending towards bitcoinstore.
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"Bitcoin has been an amazing ride, but the most fascinating part to me is the seemingly universal tendency of libertarians to immediately become authoritarians the very moment they are given any measure of power to silence the dissent of others." - The Bible
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Akka
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March 20, 2013, 09:16:15 PM |
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or does it sound like deflationary currency encourages people to hoard their money and this is an objectively bad thing for economies?
You can also argue the same way about inflation. Inflationary currencies drive people to hard "hard assets" like Land for example. Therefore inflationary currencies drive up the cost of actual object ownership (like factory / inventory space) that's an objectively bad thing for economies? * not a perfect example but sufficient |
All previous versions of currency will no longer be supported as of this update
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Mosper
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March 20, 2013, 09:20:02 PM |
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The currency itself becomes more valuable per unit vs things being purchased with it rather than the items themselves decreasing in value/price. Same effect as deflation but taking place on the side of the currency instead of the goods.
In other words, the BTC/USD exchange rate is getting pricier right now, so people don't want to spend BTC? Is there even anything that can be done about that? It would have to be advantageous to spend BTC instead of USD to offset the chance that you're costing yourself money against future prices. For most things right now there just aren't any advantages to spending BTC over your country's currency. Value goes up -> nobody spends due to hoarding
nobody spends -> value goes down due to the currency being worthless.
Do you think that it's at all possible that there could be an equilibrium here? Or do you somehow believe that the price will go up forever despite hoarding and no real use? This is the crux of the issue because bitcoin's value is driven in majority by speculation rather than production or utility. I actually believe that bitcoin is due for another crash pretty soon as the recent growth has every characteristic of a bubble. I don't think it's going to crash and burn forever as I think people are invested financially and ideologically to the point that they have too much at stake to not prop it up but that it will see a large and rapid loss of value. There is nothing to hold the value of BTC against on its own that's why everyone pegs it to the USD in all transactions and why almost everyone who takes BTC does it through bitpay or some such service. All of this aside an equilibrium is where you think the value of BTC will stabalize but given that people think it's going to be worth thousands or tens of thousands or more per coin we haven't begun to approach that. You can also argue the same way about inflation.
Inflationary currencies drive people to hard "hard assets" like Land for example. Therefore inflationary currencies drive up the cost of actual object ownership (like factory / inventory space) that's an objectively bad thing for economies?
* not a perfect example but sufficient Every economic system has its downsides and the goal is to find the one that works the best. Inflation is a necessity to an active economy so this is the lesser of two evils. Unchecked inflation can of course be disastrous but an inflationary currency is really the only option. Your wiggle room comes in how you manage/distribute it. I still think bitcoin has its uses so I'm not all doom and gloom I just don't think it lends itself to the type of thing this business is going for...at least not yet. |
Me? I'm just the cynical voice floating in the sea of unchecked optimism.
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malevolent
can into space
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Merit: 1721
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March 20, 2013, 09:24:57 PM |
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To be competitive in Europe, it would be really necessary for them to have a warehouse in Europe, so they can cut the shipping cost. I guess there are a lot of folks ready to order - the biggest hurdle are the shipping costs and to the same extent the shipping time.
That doesn't solve the problem of extra VAT/taxes/duties/etc. They would need a local supplier or their current one which is US-based would need to order the products they buy (presumable from China) directly to Europe. P.S. By Europe I meant the free-trade area. |
Signature space available for rent.
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grantbdev
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March 20, 2013, 09:30:10 PM |
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LOL. Looks like people want to hold on to their coins rather than spend them.
and you just learned why deflationary currency is a terrible idea. But if the value in Bitcoins are rising, then the profit bitcoinstore.com made off of previous sales is rising rapidly as well. It's a win-win for them either way. They will get much closer to their goal because of appreciation even if they have a decline in sales. |
Don't use BIPS!
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Mosper
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March 20, 2013, 09:48:54 PM |
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LOL. Looks like people want to hold on to their coins rather than spend them.
and you just learned why deflationary currency is a terrible idea. But if the value in Bitcoins are rising, then the profit bitcoinstore.com made off of previous sales is rising rapidly as well. It's a win-win for them either way. They will get much closer to their goal because of appreciation even if they have a decline in sales. Those aren't necessarily going to offset nice and equal like that. It isn't even likely that the number of sales lost, due to value people are holding out for, will match up the value BTC actually lands at. |
Me? I'm just the cynical voice floating in the sea of unchecked optimism.
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malevolent
can into space
Legendary
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Activity: 3472
Merit: 1721
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March 20, 2013, 09:53:18 PM |
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But if the value in Bitcoins are rising, then the profit bitcoinstore.com made off of previous sales is rising rapidly as well. It's a win-win for them either way. They will get much closer to their goal because of appreciation even if they have a decline in sales.
That's only assuming they are not converting the Bitcoins into USD. |
Signature space available for rent.
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mccorvic
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March 20, 2013, 10:03:02 PM |
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Those aren't necessarily going to offset nice and equal like that. It isn't even likely that the number of sales lost, due to value people are holding out for, will match up the value BTC actually lands at.
You have a couple things in your argument here: 1. You're working from the assumption that bitcoinstore is losing sales from customers not wanting to spend money due to "deflation". Unless I missed it, you haven't provided any evidence of this outside of just saying that's the case. It might seem right in your gut, but you are making the claim and thus need to provide some shred of evidence. And no, you can't base your argument on pure speculation alone because that's not an argument. 2. You are assuming people aren't smart enough to convert USD to BTC. If I need to buy a computer and can save 10% value by buying from bitcoinstore with BTC over USD at amazon, I'll just buy some BTC with USD and then make the purchase. I haven't bought a computer, but I have done this exact thing for other items from a variety of bitcoin stores. |
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Mosper
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March 20, 2013, 10:06:23 PM |
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Those aren't necessarily going to offset nice and equal like that. It isn't even likely that the number of sales lost, due to value people are holding out for, will match up the value BTC actually lands at.
You have a couple things in your argument here: 1. You're working from the assumption that bitcoinstore is losing sales from customers not wanting to spend money due to "deflation". Unless I missed it, you haven't provided any evidence of this outside of just saying that's the case. It might seem right in your gut, but you are making the claim and thus need to provide some shred of evidence. And no, you can't base your argument on pure speculation alone because that's not an argument. 2. You are assuming people aren't smart enough to convert USD to BTC. If I need to buy a computer and can save 10% value by buying from bitcoinstore with BTC over USD at amazon, I'll just buy some BTC with USD and then make the purchase. I haven't bought a computer, but I have done this exact thing for other items from a variety of bitcoin stores. I literally picked a random page in this thread and clicked on it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=151389.80i rather hold my bitcoins it will rise in value Nevermind the fact that if you don't posses the ability to reason this out for yourself then you are hopeless in an economic discussion. This is like telling me I can't assume it's going to be hot in Texas in July. |
Me? I'm just the cynical voice floating in the sea of unchecked optimism.
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mccorvic
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March 20, 2013, 10:08:47 PM |
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I literally picked a random page in this thread and clicked on it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=151389.80i rather hold my bitcoins it will rise in value Nevermind the fact that if you don't posses the ability to reason this out for yourself then you are hopeless in an economic discussion. Not proof of a loss sale. Hardly proof that this one guy represents an over all trend. Also, that guy is hardly the mental powerhouse you want to be basing an evidence on. I refer you to look at his post history. Also, you only admit that you made this argument post hoc. You came up with the claim then went around searching for evidence. |
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Mosper
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March 20, 2013, 10:09:42 PM |
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I literally picked a random page in this thread and clicked on it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=151389.80i rather hold my bitcoins it will rise in value Nevermind the fact that if you don't posses the ability to reason this out for yourself then you are hopeless in an economic discussion. Not proof of a loss sale. Hardly proof that this one guy represents an over all trend. Also, you only admit that you made this argument post hoc. You came up with the claim then went around searching for evidence. You asked for evidence and it is abundant enough that clicking a random page gave it to me. I am actually kind of stunned that you seem to not realize this is axiomatic. edit: You're trolling right? You aren't actually THIS clueless? |
Me? I'm just the cynical voice floating in the sea of unchecked optimism.
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mccorvic
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March 20, 2013, 10:13:13 PM |
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You asked for evidence and it is abundant enough that clicking a random page gave it to me. I am actually kind of stunned that you seem to not realize this is axiomatic.
You also only address the counter-point I made that cannot be addressed by finding one guy posting one thing on the forum. So, thus far your mental armory consists of post hoc reasoning, personal attacks, and faulty logic. Please, I encourage you to continue amusing me. Also, I'd like to inquire about your signature. Why say you are a bitcoin lobbyist when you neither understand nor support bitcoin? |
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