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Author Topic: ETH = Game Over  (Read 40435 times)
BitUsher
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June 18, 2016, 06:25:13 PM
 #81



I never thought the Etheruem could compete with bitcoin. They are aiming for the different market sector, one is currency, the other is fuel.

Volatile/Bad Fuel that sometimes explodes, for one of the worlds most wasteful, insecure and pointless Rube Goldberg machines .

Sure , Fuel.
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June 18, 2016, 10:07:39 PM
 #82

so how can you shut down a decentralized autonomous organization?

Do you know any decentralized autonomous organization ?

I don't ..

Yes, DASH.org.  The first DAO. 

The difference: Marketing that feature is taking a backseat to development.  Doing it right I'd say.
iamnotback
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June 18, 2016, 10:28:42 PM
 #83

so how can you shut down a decentralized autonomous organization?

Do you know any decentralized autonomous organization ?

I don't ..

Yes, DASH.org.  The first DAO.  

The difference: Marketing that feature is taking a backseat to development.  Doing it right I'd say.

DASH does seem to be a functioning DAO where D is distributed but sure if it is decentralized control. The stakeholders apparently vote on the actions or management of the development of the open source. The stakeholders apparently approved to have % of the mining rewards paid to a foundation which then distributes the funds according to projects approved by votes of the stakeholders. However what is not clear to me is to what degree this is all enforced by smart contract protocol or done manually by the foundation.

There are allegations however that the distribution of the DASH tokens were highly concentrated by an alleged instamine and subsequent masternode ROI scheme which may have further concentrated the tokens held by the core insiders. But I don't know if anyone has been able to prove conclusively that DASH is not really decentralized, although the suspicion is apparently strong amongst some especially Monero supporters.
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June 18, 2016, 11:00:30 PM
 #84

But I don't know if anyone has been able to prove conclusively that DASH is not really decentralized, although the suspicion is apparently strong amongst some especially Monero supporters.

Not 1 person disputes the emission mistake at the start (XCOIN then).  There was talk of a hard fork to fix it, but in the end it was determined that it would do more damage than just living with the error.  I think it was the right choice.  If there's no hard fork during this "attack", I'm confident they will recover over time.  Otherwise, buh bye ETH.

Yeah, I never understood why they shout how horrible DASH is.  But it's all Monero FUD.  Do the research and talk to DASH community members, you will find that nobody has ever been scammed like they claim.  You will also find a very alive and vibrant community who looks to the future with nothing but optimism.

Centralized/Decentralized...... I'm not sure how a DAO supported by approx. 4k full nodes could be centralized but that doesn't matter to me either way.  Makes me a few hundred $$/mo. so I'm happy.  It's a terrific investment for long term strategies.
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June 18, 2016, 11:03:34 PM
 #85

Makes me a few hundred $$/mo. so I'm happy.  It's a terrific investment for long term strategies.

If you are willing to share this, how much DASH do you have staked/deposited in order to get that ROI?
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June 18, 2016, 11:09:57 PM
 #86

Makes me a few hundred $$/mo. so I'm happy.  It's a terrific investment for long term strategies.

If you are willing to share this, how much DASH do you have staked/deposited in order to get that ROI?

I have 4 masternodes and am working on my 5th.   This link breaks down the numbers for you, just change the "4000" to whatever number you want to check on.  You need 1000 DASH to run a node.

https://dash-news.de/dashtv/#value=4000
BlindMayorBitcorn
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June 18, 2016, 11:11:03 PM
 #87



I never thought the Etheruem could compete with bitcoin. They are aiming for the different market sector, one is currency, the other is fuel.

Volatile/Bad Fuel that sometimes explodes, for one of the worlds most wasteful, insecure and pointless Rube Goldberg machines .

Sure , Fuel.



Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
BitUsher
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June 18, 2016, 11:22:22 PM
 #88

18 moths ago one warning among many . ETH is just as vulnerable as the DAO.

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June 18, 2016, 11:31:59 PM
 #89



I never thought the Etheruem could compete with bitcoin. They are aiming for the different market sector, one is currency, the other is fuel.

Volatile/Bad Fuel that sometimes explodes, for one of the worlds most wasteful, insecure and pointless Rube Goldberg machines .

Sure , Fuel.


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June 18, 2016, 11:53:24 PM
 #90

Prices are falling again on btc-e (slowly for now), and look to be set up for another huge step down!!
Do you think I am simply trolling to try to buy cheaper ETH?  Grin


BitUsher
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June 19, 2016, 12:03:59 AM
 #91

Prices are falling again on btc-e (slowly for now), and look to be set up for another huge step down!!
Do you think I am simply trolling to try to buy cheaper ETH?  Grin



If you are than you wouldn't hint at it. Trolling or waiting to dump some more mETH.

Good discussion here- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swdb-Z_4JmI
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June 19, 2016, 12:18:34 AM
 #92

I bought a few dollars worth of ETH, in case the price bounces back up, for a quick buck or two.
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June 19, 2016, 01:12:46 AM
 #93

Interesting https://medium.com/@gitguild/not-too-late-for-humans-to-save-ethereum-2f42f5fdfb75#.72e3lnkzs

iamnotback
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June 19, 2016, 01:19:45 AM
Last edit: June 19, 2016, 02:05:00 AM by iamnotback
 #94


Anyone know more about the author's background? Any LinkedIn? I am curious because he said he works for DASH.

I was in the midst of writing a similar post (here is the post), but with somewhat different conclusions.
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June 19, 2016, 01:36:33 AM
 #95

An interesting read from a guy reddit.  He gave compelling arguments and it does make you think twice about the viability and security of the current smart contract plaforms and DAOs currently in circulation.

Source:   The bug which the "DAO hacker" exploited was *not* "merely in the DAO itself" (ie, *separate* from Ethereum). The bug was in Ethereum's *language design* itself (Solidity / EVM - Ethereum Virtual Machine) - shown by the "recursive call bug discovery" divulged (and dismissed) on slock.it last week.

Here's an excerpt of the post.

Quote
Complexity and "Turing completeness" are not the real culprit here - those are all good things that we can have someday. The real culprit is poor language design. Specifically, I would recommend using "functional" (rather than "procedural") languages for mission-critical code which will be driving "smart contracts" - and even better if a high-level "specification" language could be used, allowing formal derivation of a (verifiably correct) program in a low-level "implementation" language (ie, providing mathematical proof that the implementation satisfies the specification - and mitigating the problem where the high-level human-readable "description" is different from the low-level machine-runnable "code"). I suspect many people (raised in a world where JavaScript is the "assembly language of the web") might not know about some of the history and possibly related work. So take this as a stern lecture telling you to take a good look at the history of functional languages (and specification vs implementation languages) as used in mission-critical projects, including finance - which, even when using such tools, are still very hard to get right - as we can see from the decades-long history of failures of major projects in defense, healthcare, aerospace, etc.



R


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greentea
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June 19, 2016, 02:07:27 AM
 #96

this is ETH right now:

http://imgur.com/bRIfKae

NEM   NanoWallet   SuperNodes   Apostille   Landstead   Catapult   Mijin
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LemonAndFriesOne
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June 19, 2016, 02:08:35 AM
 #97

I don't understand how people invested in a coin coded by a 20 something year old who made up his own coding language.

Coding genius? Seriously? There's thousands of kids around the world who are "coding geniuses", a lot of them start in their teens and is a hobby. I for one, learned coding in different languages when I was in my teens but have stopped short of my 20s and enjoyed life instead. It's not that hard, it just takes a bored teenager with some sense.
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June 19, 2016, 02:18:22 AM
Last edit: June 19, 2016, 06:35:56 AM by regexlove
 #98

...What a wonderful decentralized currency where a few people decide what happens and the entire network is subjugated to the decisions of a few. Not to mention Ethereum already has big blockchain, soon ethereum will turn into a centralized bank , if it doesnt die before that.

Here are a few important things:

1) the blockchain grows 375 Mb /day.
...
Soon only a few datacenters will be able to operate ETH.
a) All blockchain software is evolving, just like bitcoin may needs to change block-size soon. Any blockchain could come up with the future option to only require most nodes to verify history for a minimum of x years, while other full 'archive nodes' get extra reward.
b)Storage gets cheaper per Tb daily. 'Farmers' (/'MAID/STORJ/SIA Miners')  may soon be putting together rigs with 20 SSD cached 16Tb Harddrives

Quote
2) The development is wreckless, they spend more time on going to PR events than to actually engineer the code well, first wallet softwares were buggy as hell, took years to sync, which is fair because bitcoin was buggy also at first. However instead of promoting a buggy as hell client, they should have focused on development first and then marketing.

c) Wreckless? Prove it.  On Github about  2200 Bitcoin Bugs were documented to be fixed and  1300 for Ethereum.  Few other crypto economy projects have 150-500 bugs fixed while most are below 150 - so is TheDAO! (only 37 yet)
Quote
3) Ethereum is too complex, and the more complex something is, the more attack surfaces it has. An ideal cryptocurrency has to be simple and secure. And ETH has many more 0 day bugs that we dont know of yet, so this wont be the last hack. It came out far too fast because of PR pressure. The devs should have stayed 1 more year reviewing and researching the code and make the coin secure in that time, before pushing it out to the public.
d) Was Bitcoin too complex x years ago?  how many?
e)they spill "0 day bugs"?  
f)What happened was a TheDAO Bug, a slip-of-the-pen/eye kind of bug.
Quote
4) It's already centralized as hell, the devs can just reverse transactions like this. Sure reversing a hack is obviously good right ?, but the road to Hell is also paved with good intentions. Abusing power comes in small increments. First they only reverse hacks, and then later you find out that everyone will become censored.
 
g) Centralized, how exactly? More than Ripple?
h) They are not deciding it nor are they able to.
They are only taking their responsibility to inform the public about the options that the public has. And these are obvious options that could apply to many other Blockchains (Crypto currencies) too and at any time.
i) not even the bitcoinXT propsal killed bitcoin, did it?Wink
Quote
5) ETH devs want to impose capital controls on ETH holders. The ETH devs don't respect the free market.

The lost cost were already supposedly locked in a child DAO, so then why are they not allowing people to trade? Because they know that people would sell their ETH fast.
...........
j) It was a temporary idea during evaluating the incident.  They made sure to cancel this request within 2 hours, since it was not necessary.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4oif2x/dao_attack_exchanges_please_pause_eth_and_dao/
Exchanges did not or hardly react on this.
Quote

There are 3 options for ETH and in the next 27 days the devs and the ETH community will have to decide on one of them, and in my opinion the results will be the following:

1)  They decide to not hardfork in which case the thief gets away with the loot but atleast the integrity of ETH is preserved. The result will probably be a massive selloff of ETH and loss of future confidence in the ETH devs as they failed to provide secure code, it will seriously impact the future growth of ETH which they may or may not recover from.

2) They decide to hardfork, in which case all confidence will be lost in ETH, and it will probably deal a fatal blow to this currency's future, and it will shows as an example how a decentralized currency may not be so decentralized, and a warning to all future altcoin devs to change their attitude. It will impact BTC as well, and many media shills will try to put dirt on BTC's reputation as well.
k) There are more possible solution and mild ones. This is mainly about a TheDAO bugh - the only thing serious is that the subject of discussion also hold ~4.5% of Ethereums market capitalization = ~3 month worth of Ethereum's mining production = inflation  
(- Still  Rather tiny compared to the speed Etherum was rising in the last two years despite inflation.)
Quote
3) They wait the full 27 days and in the last minute they decide 1) or 2). In this case, the panic and uncertainty will just magnify the negative effects caused by their decision, and whichever they decide upon, the effects will just be much worse.
Yes:) but who gave you the idea they would want to be lazy for the next weeks?
Quote

So by logic they should decide 1) and announce it fast, since the longer they wait the more uncertainty they cause by the inaction.

That's just my honest opinion.


I really think people should just switch over to NXT, because it's far more decentralized and it has better developers. When last time a hack happened in NXT, the developers didnt reversed the transaction. Because in the NXT community the decentralization, transparency and fungibility is the number one priority, that supercedes everything else. The police can catch the hacker with any other method and recover the funds, but the decentralization is sacred.
Good luck!


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June 19, 2016, 02:36:10 AM
Last edit: June 19, 2016, 04:43:37 PM by iamnotback
 #99

An interesting read from a guy reddit.  He gave compelling arguments and it does make you think twice about the viability and security of the current smart contract plaforms and DAOs currently in circulation.

Source:   The bug which the "DAO hacker" exploited was *not* "merely in the DAO itself" (ie, *separate* from Ethereum). The bug was in Ethereum's *language design* itself (Solidity / EVM - Ethereum Virtual Machine) - shown by the "recursive call bug discovery" divulged (and dismissed) on slock.it last week.

Here's an excerpt of the post.

Quote
Complexity and "Turing completeness" are not the real culprit here - those are all good things that we can have someday. The real culprit is poor language design. Specifically, I would recommend using "functional" (rather than "procedural") languages for mission-critical code which will be driving "smart contracts" - and even better if a high-level "specification" language could be used, allowing formal derivation of a (verifiably correct) program in a low-level "implementation" language (ie, providing mathematical proof that the implementation satisfies the specification - and mitigating the problem where the high-level human-readable "description" is different from the low-level machine-runnable "code"). I suspect many people (raised in a world where JavaScript is the "assembly language of the web") might not know about some of the history and possibly related work. So take this as a stern lecture telling you to take a good look at the history of functional languages (and specification vs implementation languages) as used in mission-critical projects, including finance - which, even when using such tools, are still very hard to get right - as we can see from the decades-long history of failures of major projects in defense, healthcare, aerospace, etc.

I don't think language design can fix "reentrancy-safety". The problem is Turing-completeness which is unbounded recursion. That is not something you can entirely solve with the language design.

If your smart block chain project doesn't know how to explain what I am talking about here, then you should not be investing because they probably don't really know what they are doing. They think they can just slap on a programming language to a block chain. Sorry! The problem is fundamentally insoluble and any breakthrough will have to be a paradigm-shift!

All these Block Chain Alt devs are recreating the mistakes that mathematicians and software engineers have discovered years ago.

And that we all told them back in late 2013 not to do it. I personally told Charles. Vitalik invented "gas" and thought that was sufficient.

Quoting myself from 2011:

Fundamentally, Turing-completeness is one concise requirement, unbounded recursion.

I had already explained why that Reddit post is incorrect:


I haven't studied the specific vulnerability in this case[1], but I think it has to do with the contract code doing mutability aliasing on global state. So this is an issue of synchronizing mutability aliasing.

For example, imagine if some intended to be atomic operation[1] of a check for sending of ETH out of the contract had not set a global count of sent before some recursion which enabled sending more ETH out, thus exceeding the threshold.

So the Reddit post seems to be somewhat clueless about the actual issue. Functional programming and static typing is orthogonal to the issue of dealing with global state and mutability aliasing. I had just finished analyzing this issue at the Rust-lang forum and in my private discussion with keane recently. Although Rust can statically check mutability aliasing, this is restricted to disjoint data structures. We concluded that some semantics can't be modelled with a static checker. Mutability aliasing is thorny issue and I am not familiar enough with Coq to know if it can model it. I would need to really dig into the details of this and study it before I can comment with high degree of confidence.

[1]http://hackingdistributed.com/2016/06/18/analysis-of-the-dao-exploit/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHcLKrkwPLQ#t=730
https://github.com/LeastAuthority/ethereum-analyses/blob/master/GasEcon.md#case-study-the-crowfunding-contract-example
https://blog.ethereum.org/2016/06/19/thinking-smart-contract-security/
http://hackingdistributed.com/2016/06/16/scanning-live-ethereum-contracts-for-bugs/#what-about-the-recursive-race-problem-in-thedao
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June 19, 2016, 02:49:00 AM
Last edit: June 19, 2016, 03:03:59 AM by Bit_Happy
 #100

Prices are falling again on btc-e (slowly for now), and look to be set up for another huge step down!!
Do you think I am simply trolling to try to buy cheaper ETH?  Grin



If you are than you wouldn't hint at it. Trolling or waiting to dump some more mETH.

Good discussion here- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swdb-Z_4JmI

I am 5 minutes in, and it looks good, but "2 hours 15 minutes" of precious time to hear details about a ride on the Titanic?
Thanks, but...  Maybe I can find 5 more minutes.

Edit: I'm 20 minutes in and it is a good discussion, thanks.

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