The Blocksize Debate & Concerns

[Carlton Banks]

Yes, you may ask.

[RealBitcoin]

You dont need the console, nor multisig for the average user. They just want to send and receive money.
Most of these smart contracts and advanced features will only be used by 1-2% of users, the rest of them will stay basic.

atleast your in agreement that LN wont be a big deal and that not everyone will need or have to use it, but if it was to be used widely then it needs to become simple.
after all it took 30 years for computers to become simplified down from needing a command prompt. to being just a swipe of a finger.

bitcoin is not yet in the same simplicity stage as swiping a screen. and that is why people will be relying on 3rd parties too much. because their GUI is better than the full desktop locally stored privkey/seed versions

It is a big deal, but it will need GUI interface to be useable, and it  will mostly run behind the scenes in important projects.

People dont need to understand it, but they will use it, without the need to understand it, if simple GUI comes out.

[hv_]

Well if you put it like that, maybe. The main website does talk about block size limit increase, but to my knowledge its currently debated.

https://bitcoincore.org/en/2015/12/23/capacity-increases-faq/

Many engineers and academics have come out and said that blocksize increase is not feasable. But we need more research on this.

firstly that was the golden promise of december 2015.. but in recent months that has been backtracked. even carlton has shown that lukejr and core and blockstream are pretending it was never a guarantee.

anyway, those academics..

lol "2mb is bad" right??
but 2.8 good?
but 2.8 good?
but 2.7 good?
but 2.7 good?
but 2.8 good?

here ill give you some info..
people livestream their online gaming sessions while in a VOIP with their friends and also narrating to viewers of the livestream and i dont hear complaints from youtube or twitch or livestream that the internet isnt good enough for uploads

but here goes.. doomsday bottom of the line internet users..

0.5mbit upload = 37.5mBYTE per 10 minutes.
so even at a minimum. a low level node can have a couple connections without issue.
but we all know those who want to be full dedicated nodes will have better internet than the minimum.

as for the validation processing..
bitcoin works fine on a v1 raspberry Pi.. guess what raspberry Pi has evolved.. so even using raspberry Pi as a baseline benchmark, it can cope.
even with the stuff like libsecp256k1 makes the baseline rasberry Pi happy.
but if having the other stuff aswell as the blocklimit all combined into 0.13.. then its all good

Just to get back on that and skip the blahblah.
All good with that?

[Carlton Banks]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=65837;sa=showPosts

Well, how do you like that? It's easy to get rid of all these Frankys, just point out that posting at least once every hour for 24 hours straight is just a little implausible for 1 man on his own



(apologies to RealBitcoin, but this sock-puppet legion account known as Franky1 is an absolute plague on bitcointalk)


Come back Frankys, we miss you all!

[franky1]

been here all the time.

but its a kind of shame you like to derail the topic.

anyway answer the question
in a couple months, will you be saying that Luke Jrs "independent" release of bitcoin v0.13swhf(segwit+hardfork) is a altcoin and he should be thrown to the wolves,
just like you have done with any other implementation that was not pure blockstream?

[Carlton Banks]

been here all the time.

So you've been awake... how long exactly? What's your secret? Modafinil? Oh no, you're a meth-head, silly me. No wonder your posts about technical matters sound more psychedelic than The Beatles on vacation at Salvador Dali's place

[franky1]

all i hear is whistles in the wind

anyway answer the question
in a couple months, will you be saying that Luke Jrs "independent" release of bitcoin v0.13swhf(segwit+hardfork) is a altcoin and he should be thrown to the wolves,
just like you have done with any other implementation that was not pure blockstream?

[Carlton Banks]

All I'm hearing is the same repeating-repeating-repeating tactics that you always use, and my god it's dull. Haven't you got any variation in the way you express yourself?

[franky1]

more insults from carlton while he avoids answering things related to the topic.

one more try
in a couple months, will you be saying that Luke Jrs "independent" release of bitcoin v0.13swhf(segwit+hardfork) is a altcoin and he should be thrown to the wolves,
just like you have done with any other implementation that was not pure blockstream?

[Carlton Banks]

Maybe if you just repeat yourself 1,000,000 times it will work? Only 999,995 more to go, Frankys. You can do it!

[rizzlarolla]

Hello, I've been in bitcoin for 3+ years now and I would like to share my intellectual opinion about big blocks for bitcoin (2mb ,8mb ,etc) , the Bitcoin Hardfork, and about bitcoin in general and what are the concerns we need to watch out for.

Now there have been many shills, from both sides, so to just clear that out, so I want rational arguments pro/contra big blocks and hardforking bitcoin. I am personally anti-hardfork and therefore anti-big blocks, and I will demonstrate here why it is the best choice in my opinion. So stop shilling, and let's start debating this like civilized adults. I`ll present here my arguments and then you guys can respond to it. The thread will not be moderated so that I should not be accused as a shill. But I hope troll posts or low intellect posts (usually 1 liners) will be removed by forum moderators. Aso remember these are only my opinions from the knowledge I have so if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, I`m open to criticism!

Great, op sounds fair and open minded, is open to criticism and wants to hear your opposing opinions.
Let's start debating this like civilised adults.  
But..

I just dont understand why people want to do a hardfork, when the risks associated with it are just too big.

They are either dishonest or dont understand what they are talking about:

...if you debate against op's opinion you are a stupid and/or lying?

(ps, "But I hope troll posts or low intellect posts (usually 1 liners) will be removed by forum moderators." - ^ see above post ^)

[Carlton Banks]

I just dont understand why people want to do a hardfork, when the risks associated with it are just too big.

They are either dishonest or dont understand what they are talking about:

...if you debate against op's opinion you are a stupid and/or lying?

(ps, "But I hope troll posts or low intellect posts (usually 1 liners) will be removed by forum moderators." - ^ see above post ^)

Oh do tell us about your high-brow adult arguments about how the txdata blocksize should start doubling til Bitcoin reaches oblivion. I think people can decide whether I'm being fiercely defensive of my BTC assets and the code protecting them, or, what was it you said? Oh, "low intellect one-liners" appears to be your magic bullet criticism lol.


The "Adult" tactics of the BigBlockers include:

• Constant straw-man derailing of irrefutable points
• Using misleading or bizarre brand names/marketing expressions for technologies that either contradict the evoked psychology ("Classic"), or don't work as advertised ("xthin")
• "Weirdo" character accounts, where the (assumed) personality/beliefs/avatar/sig etc are designed to mock or malign Bitcoin supporters
• Fabricated statistical graphics, designed to suggest the existence of events that have never taken place
• Constant lying and fabrications about Bitcoin supporters to suggest they have conflicts of interest
• Constant lying and fabrications about Bitcoin developers to suggest they have conflicts of interest
• Abusing the forum trust system to malign Bitcoin supporters
• Claiming that the entire blocksize debate was started by the Bitcoin supporters

I could go on. But you're the real grown ups, right? Yeah, the grown-ups that use every nasty little trick in the book to get your own way. Die you fucking scumbags

[rizzlarolla]

and let's start debating this like civilized adults...  I hope troll posts or low intellect posts (usually 1 liners) will be removed by forum moderators.

Die you fucking scumbags

OP, Mods...

(franky I would be very pleased if you dont respond to the goading above. it belittles you. imo)


v From below v, for posterity,

Totally appropriate response to insidious lying manipulative sociopaths that won't let it go. Again: die you piece of shit

[Carlton Banks]

Totally appropriate response to insidious lying manipulative sociopaths that won't let it go. Again: die you piece of shit

[franky1]

summary of mindsets

blockstream: "we need to get to a capacity that competes against Visa, they do thousands of transactions a second but they settle in days, bitcoin needs to do the same but in 10 minutes"
community: "so you want to invent LN which settles every.. umm...week, month, never? hmmmm"

blockstream: "we need to fix malleability so people can trust zero confirms"
community: "so you invent RBF to make zero confirm untrustable again"

blockstream: "hardforks are bad because everyone has to move over on day 0"
community: "some people already run implementations with higher limits. after all its a 0byte->Xmb rule change, not a exceed 1mb+ at all costs rule. so people can run, test, bugfix the higher limit implementations even now, giving plenty of time. also softforks require pools to upgrade too before it activates. so its literally the same boat.."

blockstream: "we dont want to dilute the node count with bigger blocks"
community: "segwit also increases the data for nodes. infact there is evidence of 2.8mb blocks.. not only that but segwit introduces pruned no witness mode which will definitely dilute the node count"

blockstream: "a hard fork wants to be 8gb blocks next year, run everyone the world will end if that is allowed"
community: "2mb is an acceptable amount of data and it took alot of 2015 for lots of people to drown out the doomsdays to find a number the majority were happy with. and it will grow NATURALLY as technology and ability grows(slowly). there is no end of days meteor incoming in the next year"

blockstream: "anything not blockstream is an altcoin"
community: "anything connecting to the network of the bitcoin genesis block and 7 years of bitcoin data is not an altcoin"

[Carlton Banks]

Oh and I forgot the most important tactic: repeating-repeating-repeating ^^^


Every one of those arguments has been refuted, and the Frankys know this, but that doesn't stop them from just regurgitating it as and when they need something to eat.

(Franky and his internal sock-puppets, of course, literally do eat their meals through this behaviour, sometimes he puts in >24 hour shifts when the overtime is available lol)

[jonald_fyookball]

summary of mindsets

blockstream: "we need to get to a capacity that competes against Visa, they do thousands of transactions a second but they settle in days, bitcoin needs to do the same but in 10 minutes"
community: "so you want to invent LN which settles every.. umm...week, month, never? hmmmm"

blockstream: "we need to fix malleability so people can trust zero confirms"
community: "so you invent RBF to make zero confirm untrustable again"

blockstream: "hardforks are bad because everyone has to move over on day 0"
community: "some people already run implementations with higher limits. after all its a 0byte->Xmb rule change, not a exceed 1mb+ at all costs rule. so people can run, test, bugfix the higher limit implementations even now, giving plenty of time. also softforks require pools to upgrade too before it activates. so its literally the same boat.."

blockstream: "we dont want to dilute the node count with bigger blocks"
community: "segwit also increases the data for nodes. infact there is evidence of 2.8mb blocks.. not only that but segwit introduces pruned no witness mode which will definitely dilute the node count"

blockstream: "a hard fork wants to be 8gb blocks next year, run everyone the world will end if that is allowed"
community: "2mb is an acceptable amount of data and it took alot of 2015 for lots of people to drown out the doomsdays to find a number the majority were happy with. and it will grow NATURALLY as technology and ability grows(slowly). there is no end of days meteor incoming in the next year"

blockstream: "anything not blockstream is an altcoin"
community: "anything connecting to the network of the bitcoin genesis block and 7 years of bitcoin data is not an altcoin"

great post Franky.

[franky1]

lol my comments refuted??

with insults, not technicals.
with whistles in the wind, not facts.
with boring offtopic chest bumping, not relevance.

as for my ability to stay awake. its called stamina.
but as always instead of talking about the topic, you simple waffle on about random things and insult people.

i see you lack stamina because you cannot go a day without getting emotional and having to insult everyone not "team blockstream"

[Carlton Banks]

lol my comments refuted??

with insults, not technicals.
with whistles in the wind, not facts.
with boring offtopic chest bumping, not relevance.

Really, you consider posting obvious facts alongside obvious mistruths to be "technical"?

Do you consider constantly posting "go play with your Monero" to be a good example of your on-topic, technical, varied non-posturing?

as for my ability to stay awake. its called stamina.
but as always instead of talking about the topic, you simple waffle on about random things and insult people.

i see you lack stamina because you cannot go a day without getting emotional and having to insult everyone not "team blockstream"your

Lol, Franky, you're not superhuman, except in the way that you're represented by more than 1 human operator.  The only timezone that doesn't have a Franky working out of it is the mid Pacific circa the International Dateline, lol. Real accounts, owned and controlled by 1 person only, have a big patch where they actually go to sleep whereas your account has barely any variation in the time of day at which the various Frankys post from.

What's your excuse, that you live an international jet-set lifestyle touring the world? With your barely existent English, I'm finding that incredibly hard to believe. And apparently you've still got some BTC left after your multiple years on world tour? The quantity of BTC that a below average IQ Brit in a dead-end job amassed in 2013? (and you were probably posting on bitcointalk day and night back when you started, so let's not entertain the idea that you had any capital to invest to begin with, I just haven't got the same amount of time/employees to research your account as much as you research mine )


Your fake character account is dead, Frankys. And if you don't get out of this forum, I and others will continue to dance on it's grave. The Carlton Dance. How are you not embarrassed?

[AliceGored]

Where nullc conclusively demonstrates that free market incentives will never work for Bitcoin mining:



Miners must never be called upon to determine the size of their own blocks. This power shall be centralized into the hands of the Core technicians, thus correcting an extreme mistake and oversight in satoshi's original design.

Extra points for using the emotional buzzword "censoring" to describe rational economic behavior of miners in the operation of their business.

This man has no shame. Or, he really believes what he is typing here... Both are equally terrifying.