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Author Topic: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 90btc  (Read 18236 times)
aric
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March 13, 2013, 05:28:19 PM
 #41

As a competitor of sorts to coinabul I have kept out of these threads for now.
I am, just as in the BFL refund case, of the opinion that coinabul owes the price of the product in USD.

Aside from how the whole thing was handled, the buyer has parted with his BTC and has bought a Krugerrand.

He will be refunded an amount of any currency that allows him to buy one Krugerrand (ie he is refunded "The Krugerrand" in-like).


That being said, I would happily act as a middle man for OP.
I will sell ship a Krugerrand to CZR *at cost* (under 40 BTC right now).
FedEx insured door-to-door.
Should OP agree to this, he may take it up to coinabul and then PM me for details.
With this, I will withdraw from the thread.



No, that isn't valid. People transact in bitcoin for a reason: to not transact in USD. Bitcoin is its own denomination. It stands completely independent of USD. Any other practice allows the seller to take a buyer's money if the relative value of their bitcoins increases. Likewise, no matter how low the bitcoin value goes down, the refund would still be in BTC. The thought of spending other people's money and hedging on customers is offensive and crooked.

We're not talking about a person who's unhappy with a product they received. We're talking about a person who was never sent the product.
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HighInBC
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March 13, 2013, 05:33:32 PM
 #42

The refund should be given in the exact currency paid, bitcoins.

If I traded 55 oz of silver coins for 1 gold coin and you never delivered the gold coin and the silver/gold ratio changed to 30 would you only give back 30 oz of silver? The idea that you have to sell a coin back to them instead of getting a refund nonsense, he paid for delivery so he either gets it delivered or a full refund.

USD don't enter into it. If the person wanted to trade in USD they likely would have gone to a conventional gold dealer.

No company should use their customer as a hedge. It is not the customers fault that the company spent bitcoins on gold that they could not ship before the price in bitcoins went down.

They need either send the metal he paid for or return all of the payment. To give back less bitcoins than paid it nothing short of a rip off.
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March 13, 2013, 05:35:04 PM
 #43

As a competitor of sorts to coinabul I have kept out of these threads for now.
I am, just as in the BFL refund case, of the opinion that coinabul owes the price of the product in USD.

Aside from how the whole thing was handled, the buyer has parted with his BTC and has bought a Krugerrand.

He will be refunded an amount of any currency that allows him to buy one Krugerrand (ie he is refunded "The Krugerrand" in-like).


That being said, I would happily act as a middle man for OP.
I will sell ship a Krugerrand to CZR *at cost* (under 40 BTC right now).
FedEx insured door-to-door.
Should OP agree to this, he may take it up to coinabul and then PM me for details.
With this, I will withdraw from the thread.



If you're from europe definitely use this guy ^^. He's awesome.
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March 13, 2013, 05:36:26 PM
 #44

As a competitor of sorts to coinabul I have kept out of these threads for now.
I am, just as in the BFL refund case, of the opinion that coinabul owes the price of the product in USD.

Aside from how the whole thing was handled, the buyer has parted with his BTC and has bought a Krugerrand.

He will be refunded an amount of any currency that allows him to buy one Krugerrand (ie he is refunded "The Krugerrand" in-like).


That being said, I would happily act as a middle man for OP.
I will sell ship a Krugerrand to CZR *at cost* (under 40 BTC right now).
FedEx insured door-to-door.
Should OP agree to this, he may take it up to coinabul and then PM me for details.
With this, I will withdraw from the thread.



Thank you. This is what I wanted and what I offered to Coinabul a week ago. I want to make trade and I will be happy if I get Krugerrand for my bitcoins spent. I will contact Coinabul and send him this offer again.
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March 13, 2013, 05:50:17 PM
 #45

The refund should be given in the exact currency paid, bitcoins.

If I traded 55 oz of silver coins for 1 gold coin and you never delivered the gold coin and the silver/gold ratio changed to 30 would you only give back 30 oz of silver? The idea that you have to sell a coin back to them instead of getting a refund nonsense, he paid for delivery so he either gets it delivered or a full refund.

USD don't enter into it. If the person wanted to trade in USD they likely would have gone to a conventional gold dealer.

No company should use their customer as a hedge. It is not the customers fault that the company spent bitcoins on gold that they could not ship before the price in bitcoins went down.

They need either send the metal he paid for or return all of the payment. To give back less bitcoins than paid it nothing short of a rip off.
As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.
aric
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March 13, 2013, 06:00:19 PM
 #46

As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.

It wouldn't matter if a page showed USD prices along with BTC. Paying in BTC implies being refunded the full/original BTC amount, no matter what USD prices are on the page. Anything else is a seller hedging value against the buyer.
2weiX
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March 13, 2013, 06:09:15 PM
 #47

As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.

It wouldn't matter if a page showed USD prices along with BTC. Paying in BTC implies being refunded the full/original BTC amount, no matter what USD prices are on the page. Anything else is a seller hedging value against the buyer.

by the same reasoning you can buy 1oz now, then come back 5 weeks later and say "BTC has doubled, send me another 1oz, ok"




not.
aric
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March 13, 2013, 06:21:55 PM
 #48

As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.

It wouldn't matter if a page showed USD prices along with BTC. Paying in BTC implies being refunded the full/original BTC amount, no matter what USD prices are on the page. Anything else is a seller hedging value against the buyer.

by the same reasoning you can buy 1oz now, then come back 5 weeks later and say "BTC has doubled, send me another 1oz, ok"




not.

No. Read this person's issue again. He didn't receive a product. The product wasn't even sent.

He can't come back weeks later and expect a refund in anything other than the original amount of BTC he paid. Likewise, he can't expect more than the original amount of metal he purchased, as you highlight. The comparative rate of BTC is meaningless. If Coinabul can't provide the product in a timely manner, then they can't. That means the refund is in BTC. It doesn't matter if BTC crashes to $1 USD: 1 BTC either. Refunding in a different BTC amount is inexcusable. Doing otherwise is laughably unfair. I'm surprised by anyone who doesn't realize that.
HighInBC
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March 13, 2013, 06:23:39 PM
 #49

As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.

It wouldn't matter if a page showed USD prices along with BTC. Paying in BTC implies being refunded the full/original BTC amount, no matter what USD prices are on the page. Anything else is a seller hedging value against the buyer.

by the same reasoning you can buy 1oz now, then come back 5 weeks later and say "BTC has doubled, send me another 1oz, ok"




not.

This is specious reasoning. We are talking about failure to deliver a product here, not someone changing their mind when the price changes.
2weiX
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March 13, 2013, 06:26:48 PM
 #50

As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.

It wouldn't matter if a page showed USD prices along with BTC. Paying in BTC implies being refunded the full/original BTC amount, no matter what USD prices are on the page. Anything else is a seller hedging value against the buyer.

by the same reasoning you can buy 1oz now, then come back 5 weeks later and say "BTC has doubled, send me another 1oz, ok"




not.

This is specious reasoning. We are talking about failure to deliver a product here, not someone changing their mind when the price changes.

I know what everyone's talking about.

I just think that the two issues are, well, different matters, and that most of you have fallen into the "bitcoin is a value-storing-commodity" trap instead of realizing that bitcoin is a means of MOVING value.

in this case, X Bitcoins have been used to move the value of $item from A to B.

But hey, that's just my opinion, IANAL. Also, it could be avoided by just delivering $item by any which means.
HighInBC
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March 13, 2013, 06:29:44 PM
 #51

Bitcoins are a currency. They are not tied to the US dollar. When you send bitcoins you are sending bitcoins not USD.

Bitcoins are a value storing commodity, and a currency.

If I ordered from you and you could not deliver I would expect to be refunded in the same currency I paid with. If you tried to adjust the refund based on some foreign nation's rapidly dropping currency I would be right here posting about it too.
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March 13, 2013, 06:35:21 PM
 #52

Bitcoins are a currency. They are not tied to the US dollar. When you send bitcoins you are sending bitcoins not USD.

Bitcoins are a value storing commodity, and a currency.

If I ordered from you and you could not deliver I would expect to be refunded in the same currency I paid with. If you tried to adjust the refund based on some foreign nation's rapidly dropping currency I would be right here posting about it too.


time for me to change my ToS, then ^^
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March 13, 2013, 06:38:57 PM
 #53

time for me to change my ToS, then ^^

I will be sure to read it thoroughly before ordering.

I agree that if you state in your TOS that prices are set in USD and refunds will be given based on that then you are being fair.
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March 13, 2013, 06:52:38 PM
 #54

time for me to change my ToS, then ^^

I will be sure to read it thoroughly before ordering.

I agree that if you state in your TOS that prices are set in USD and refunds will be given based on that then you are being fair.


Think this sentence makes it clear?

If we have to refund, we will do so according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time.

Longer version:

In the case that we have to refund you, we will refund you in a currency of your choice (USD, EUR, BTC) according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time the order was placed.
aric
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March 13, 2013, 07:00:31 PM
 #55

time for me to change my ToS, then ^^

I will be sure to read it thoroughly before ordering.

I agree that if you state in your TOS that prices are set in USD and refunds will be given based on that then you are being fair.


Think this sentence makes it clear?

If we have to refund, we will do so according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time.

Longer version:

In the case that we have to refund you, we will refund you in a currency of your choice (USD, EUR, BTC) according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time the order was placed.

Yikes. Is that really the business practice you want to engage in?

What if you don't even send the product, as is the case of this thread? You're going to "refund" (i.e. give the person his money back -- the money that was never yours to begin with) in a different currency because you want to keep some of it?
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March 13, 2013, 07:01:36 PM
 #56

I think the value is what needs to be refunded.  That is about 40BTC right now.  That way, no one is really at a loss.  Of course, my reasoning falls apart when you consider that if the price of gold doubled then it would be ok to send only half an ounce; if you consider things as only the value they represent.  But, Gold is a commodity and Bitcoin is a currency.  Bitcoins represent buying power, and so if 40 BTC were refunded then the gold coin could just be bought elsewhere.  This way no one could hedge anyone (as far as the currencies are concerned).
aric
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March 13, 2013, 07:19:32 PM
 #57

I think the value is what needs to be refunded.  That is about 40BTC right now.  That way, no one is really at a loss.  Of course, my reasoning falls apart when you consider that if the price of gold doubled then it would be ok to send only half an ounce; if you consider things as only the value they represent.  But, Gold is a commodity and Bitcoin is a currency.  Bitcoins represent buying power, and so if 40 BTC were refunded then the gold coin could just be bought elsewhere.  This way no one could hedge anyone (as far as the currencies are concerned).

WTF? Scenario:

  • Buyer pays you 100 BTC for something.
  • BTC's worth doubles in USD.
  • You don't send what Buyer ordered.
  • Buyer (obviously) wants a refund.
  • You'd then try to only owe Buyer 50 BTC?

The only one getting screwed would be the Buyer. Comparative value is meaningless. The Buyer cares about what he paid in his/her bitcoin. Alternatively, if bitcoin became half as much in USD, Buyer would still be owed 100 BTC. How is it possible to not see how unfair it is to be refunded in anything other than the original amount?
Raoul Duke
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March 13, 2013, 07:29:00 PM
 #58

Bitcoin is a currency.

Citation needed.

2weiX
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March 13, 2013, 08:03:37 PM
 #59

time for me to change my ToS, then ^^

I will be sure to read it thoroughly before ordering.

I agree that if you state in your TOS that prices are set in USD and refunds will be given based on that then you are being fair.


Think this sentence makes it clear?

If we have to refund, we will do so according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time.

Longer version:

In the case that we have to refund you, we will refund you in a currency of your choice (USD, EUR, BTC) according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time the order was placed.

Yikes. Is that really the business practice you want to engage in?

What if you don't even send the product, as is the case of this thread? You're going to "refund" (i.e. give the person his money back -- the money that was never yours to begin with) in a different currency because you want to keep some of it?

I dont intend to even once have to refund anyone for whatever.
Just making sure.
HighInBC
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March 13, 2013, 08:15:42 PM
 #60

Bitcoin is a currency.

Citation needed.

Currency: The fact or quality of being generally accepted or in use.

The very fact that it is being used as a medium of exchange makes it currency.
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