SCAM - Coinabul owe me 90btc

[bravenec]

I wanted to buy gold Krugerrand from Coinabul. It is more than a month ago I have sent them 90 BTC and now I have not my gold nor my bitcoins. I have only email box full of excuses. I'm from central Europe and I think that Coinabul rely on the fact that it is hard to defend against the fraud outside from US.

This is my email conversation with Coinabul:
http://bravenec.eu/coinabul

[1715625793]

1715625793

[1715625793]

1715625793

[1715625793]

1715625793

[1715625793]

1715625793

[speeder]

That is starting to look bad for Coinabul

[someguy52]

Damn, that sucks but thanks for warning everyone else at least

[bravenec]

I'm newbie in this forum. I want to send this post to

Bitcoin Forum > Economy > Trading Discussion > Scam Accusations

later in hope that it will be more visible there. I have to wait :-)

[Raoul Duke]

I'm newbie in this forum. I want to send this post to

Bitcoin Forum > Economy > Trading Discussion > Scam Accusations

later in hope that it will be more visible there. I have to wait :-)

I will move it right now.

[Herodes]

Coinabul should really sort this situation out. If not, they're not a serious business.

[bravenec]

I'm newbie in this forum. I want to send this post to

Bitcoin Forum > Economy > Trading Discussion > Scam Accusations

later in hope that it will be more visible there. I have to wait :-)

I will move it right now.

Thank you :-)

[davidspitzer]

This does not bode well for Coinabul. Its too bad they let things go like this. I have had a few discussions with them via email regarding the very high premium they place on their metals and that is the main reason I stopped buying from them (along with extremely long ship times). I would actually be willing to pay more for for fast ship times and stellar customer service both of which was not my experience with my purchases. I am sure someone will pick up the mantle from Coinabul. The nice thing about a free market is that its quick to fill the holes left by poor merchants.

Im sorry to hear that people have lost money though

[HighInBC]

Perhaps I should start trading gold here, I have had no problem with 5+ years of shipping gold via ebay.

[2weiX]

Perhaps I should start trading gold here, I have had no problem with 5+ years of shipping gold via ebay.

don't, it really is a hassle ^__^
also, there's too many of us around already.

 

[usagi]

I'm newbie in this forum. I want to send this post to

Bitcoin Forum > Economy > Trading Discussion > Scam Accusations

later in hope that it will be more visible there. I have to wait :-)

I will move it right now.

Psy, I realize this is a point of minor contention, but, what are the chances that the subject would be worded exactly the same -- same use of a dash, same grammatical error, etc. by two entirely different people?

[Raoul Duke]

I'm newbie in this forum. I want to send this post to

Bitcoin Forum > Economy > Trading Discussion > Scam Accusations

later in hope that it will be more visible there. I have to wait :-)

I will move it right now.

Psy, I realize this is a point of minor contention, but, what are the chances that the subject would be worded exactly the same -- same use of a dash, same grammatical error, etc. by two entirely different people?

No idea about the chances of that happening as I'm not very good at math when it doesn't involve money.
But this thread didn't belong in the Newbies forum.
Well, he might have copied the title from the other thread.
Have you seen bravenecs' registration date?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Interesting!

From: Petr Bravenec <petr@bravenec.eu>
To: Coinabul Support <contact@coinabul.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:21 +0100

Sorry,
I hate this:

------- here is link to still unpublished article on abclinuxu.cz ------

This is an article in famous czech magazine about Linux operating system. I
write for them articles about accounting, money, computers etc. Bitcoins is a
popular theme here, too. I'm sure that the article will read more the thousand
people. I believe that many of them will recommend me better places where to
publish my warn against you than local czech magazine.

Publication is scheduled to Mar 13 18:00 MET.

Petr Bravenec

[bobbit]

Well, there is a chance yet...they offered to send it to another country for you. Is it possible there is someone you could trust outside of the Czech Republic that would they could send it to? Then it could be sent on by them to you. Trust is hard when it comes to gold, but there are still honest people around.

[John (John K.)]

If I'm reading this correctly, Coinabul offered to reimburse the USD value of the coin to you, right? Isn't it a common practice to issue refunds denominated in USD when the original purchase was done in USD?

[John (John K.)]

If I'm reading this correctly, Coinabul offered to reimburse the USD value of the coin to you, right? Isn't it a common practice to issue refunds denominated in BTC when the original purchase was done in BTC?

Not really.

Oops, edited. Was denominated in USD LOL

[malevolent]

If I'm reading this correctly, Coinabul offered to reimburse the USD value of the coin to you, right? Isn't it a common practice to issue refunds denominated in BTC when the original purchase was done in BTC?

Depends on the prior agreement, and if there is none I think it's obvious that it should be repaid in the same way. Loans in the lending section are also given in BTC and repaid in BTC.

[John (John K.)]

If I'm reading this correctly, Coinabul offered to reimburse the USD value of the coin to you, right? Isn't it a common practice to issue refunds denominated in BTC when the original purchase was done in BTC?

Depends on the prior agreement, and if there is none I think it's obvious that it should be repaid in the same way. Loans in the lending section are also given in BTC and repaid in BTC.

It'll be quite troublesome in this case as if BTC depreciated in this timespan, or gold increased in value in this timespan, coinabul would have another problem in their hands. I guess the easiest way out here is just to have Coinabul send him the coin directly.

[malevolent]

If I'm reading this correctly, Coinabul offered to reimburse the USD value of the coin to you, right? Isn't it a common practice to issue refunds denominated in BTC when the original purchase was done in BTC?

Depends on the prior agreement, and if there is none I think it's obvious that it should be repaid in the same way. Loans in the lending section are also given in BTC and repaid in BTC.

It'll be quite troublesome in this case as if BTC depreciated in this timespan, or gold increased in value in this timespan, coinabul would have another problem in their hands. I guess the easiest way out here is just to have Coinabul send him the coin directly.

Too bad, looks like a deliberate fuckup from Coinabul in this case, if BTC gained in value so much the better so they can remember to treat their customers properly.

[vampire]

Well one thing Coinabul can settle in USD, it's somewhat a law around here. Of course figuring out the amount is hard, if they tied to USD upon purchase then that amount.

[John (John K.)]

Well one thing Coinabul can settle in USD, it's somewhat a law around here. Of course figuring out the amount is hard, if they tied to USD upon purchase then that amount.

Yep, this. The original price is tied to USD after all, despite being paid in BTC. If the original amount of BTC were to be paid back, they would be essentially opening themselves as a 'hedge' against BTC appreciation in value.  If BTC depreciated in value, I doubt the buyer would want his original amount in BTC to be refunded.

[bravenec]

If I'm reading this correctly, Coinabul offered to reimburse the USD value of the coin to you, right? Isn't it a common practice to issue refunds denominated in BTC when the original purchase was done in BTC?

Not really.

Oops, edited. Was denominated in USD LOL

Denominated in USD, yes. Count with me:

The order was made at Feb 02.
BTC close price was 21.18 on MtGox that day.
The ammount sold to Coinabul was 90.78

21.18 * 90.78 = 1922 USD

1: They offered me to send back 1603 USD. I think it is spot price of Gold. It is impossible for end customer to buy gold for this price.

2: I have sent them BTC. I want back my BTCs. What should I do with USD? I have not USD account, the spread between bid/ask in my bank is 3.8% so it takes another 60 USD from the offered ammount.

[John (John K.)]

If I'm reading this correctly, Coinabul offered to reimburse the USD value of the coin to you, right? Isn't it a common practice to issue refunds denominated in BTC when the original purchase was done in BTC?

Not really.

Oops, edited. Was denominated in USD LOL

Denominated in USD, yes. Count with me:

The order was made at Feb 02.
BTC close price was 21.18 on MtGox that day.
The ammount sold to Coinabul was 90.78

21.18 * 90.78 = 1922 USD

1: They offered me to send back 1603 USD. I think it is spot price of Gold. It is impossible for end customer to buy gold for this price.

2: I have sent them BTC. I want back my BTCs. What should I do with USD? I have not USD account, the spread between bid/ask in my bank is 3.8% so it takes another 60 USD from the offered ammount.

Paying back 90.78 BTC now would be over $4085~. The 1603 USD amount is too low, and they should send back whatever amount in USD you paid that day, including the shipping/insurance etc, via BTC to you.

[bravenec]

I have another mail from Coinabul:

http://bravenec.eu/coinabul

Now I see the situation in new light :-/

[rpietila]

I have another mail from Coinabul:

http://bravenec.eu/coinabul

Now I see the situation in new light :-/

Was there any reason they gave, when saying it is illegal for them to deliver in the Czech Republic?

If they offered to sell the gold, but found out that it is inconvenient, and decided to reimburse you the USD amount, I think they are doing what is legal, but hardly what is right. Good business practice is to think a little bit beforehand, and if you are clearly at fault due to your own negligence, to reimburse the customer promptly and properly.

[JoelKatz]

Paying back 90.78 BTC now would be over $4085~. The 1603 USD amount is too low, and they should send back whatever amount in USD you paid that day, including the shipping/insurance etc, via BTC to you.

Really? So I can take orders to be delivered in two weeks and if Bitcoin doubles in price between when I take the order and when I ship, I can just refund them half the Bitcoins instead? This rule makes sense if the party not holding the Bitcoins asks for the refund, but it doesn't make sense when the party holding the Bitcoins decides to issue a refund. The point is to prohibit the party that asks for the refund from strategically choosing whether to issue a refund based on the price of BTC. Your rule, if applied to the party holding the Bitcoins, accomplishes the exact reverse of the purpose of the rule.

To be clear, I'm not accusing Coinabul of anything. But in this case, imagine if Coinabul was malicious. They simply hold the gold and the Bitcoins and wait a month or so stringing the customer along. If the gold drops in value, they ship the gold. If the Bitcoins go up in value, they refund the USD equivalent of the original Bitcoin price. If this rule were applied to the party holding the Bitcoins, it would enable malicious sellers to profit in precisely the way this rule, when applied correctly to buyers, is supposed to prevent. (I'm not saying Coinabul did or ever would do this. Just showing that this is a bad rule because it creates an exploit when its whole purpose is to close one.)

The correct rule would ensure that neither party has the opportunity to strategically choose to ask for a refund by ensuring that a refund doesn't enrich either party at the expense of the other over what going through with the sale would have done.

Coinabul converted to USD to minimize their risk should the customer cancel the sale or should they wind up keeping the proceeds. But unfortunately for them, this increases the risk should they need to cancel the sale. Someone necessarily has to take that risk, and I don't see why it should be the customer.

(By the way, I love Coinabul and prior to this incident highly recommended them. This is distressing though, and I'd strongly urge Coinabul to try to work out some kind of compromise that leaves the customer not significantly worse off.)

[Raoul Duke]

So, they accepted an order for a country they couldn't ship to? That sounds amateurish to me. And by saying it's amateurish I'm being nice, as there are some worse terms that come to mind...

bravenec, did you give them your shipping address when you ordered?
If you did they should give you your BTC back, not USD, not EUR, fucking BTC or scammer tag.
You shouldn't be rewarding their incompetence.

[Monster Tent]

If I'm reading this correctly, Coinabul offered to reimburse the USD value of the coin to you, right? Isn't it a common practice to issue refunds denominated in BTC when the original purchase was done in BTC?

Depends on the prior agreement, and if there is none I think it's obvious that it should be repaid in the same way. Loans in the lending section are also given in BTC and repaid in BTC.

It'll be quite troublesome in this case as if BTC depreciated in this timespan, or gold increased in value in this timespan, coinabul would have another problem in their hands. I guess the easiest way out here is just to have Coinabul send him the coin directly.

Why would they accept an order from a country they cant ship too 

[Bitinvestor]

Does anybody know why they can't ship to the Czech Republic? They are in the European Union and if Coinabul can ship to Germany, Italy, or Spain then they can also ship to the Czech Republic. It's a common market. What am I missing?

[Raoul Duke]

Does anybody know why they can't ship to the Czech Republic? They are in the European Union and if Coinabul can ship to Germany, Italy, or Spain then they can also ship to the Czech Republic. It's a common market. What am I missing?

http://goldsilver.com/international/ <--- They are in the US and ship to the Czech Republic
http://silvergoldbull.com/shipping  <--- They are in Canada and also ship to the Czech Republic

What's Coinabuls' excuse? That it's forbidden? I'm LMAO even if it's not funny...

[bravenec]

Yes, of course I gave them my shipping address. It was a part of the ordering process at their eshop.

[bravenec]

Now I checked their eshop. There is still Czech Republic in the list of destinations, although they know more then a month that they do not send here.

[Raoul Duke]

Yes, of course I gave them my shipping address. It was a part of the ordering process at their eshop.

Well then, in my view they need to give you your 90 BTC back and not trying to give you US$300 less than the value of BTC at the time.

Now I checked their eshop. There is still Czech Republic in the list of destinations, although they know more then a month that they do not send here.

/quintuple-facepalm

[rpietila]

/quintuple-facepalm

I feel sorry for the guys at Coinabul. If ever (hopefully not) I behave as stupidly in my dealings as a gold and silver dealer, please inform me first and give me a chance of making things right!

(I think Coinabul is now aware of the situation, but just in case - not everyone reads this forum 24/7 like I was told when I asked the BTC be paid in 1 hour after the auction ending time.)

[John (John K.)]

Please keep this topic on topic. I've messaged Coinabul to see his take on this again - he seems to be quite unresponsive.

[aric]

If you paid in BTC and didn't get the product -- apparently, in this case, it wasn't even shipped -- then you must be refunded fully in BTC.

I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading here. It's un-fucking-believable. Market changes in BTC are completely irrelevant, unless the 'service' is attempting to con people out of their bitcoins when the market goes up. Yaaaay, free bitcoins for doing nothing! Ridiculous.

[dust]

Unlike bASIC and BFL, who list their prices in USD, Coinabul lists their in prices BTC.  Therefore, customers have a much stronger case to be refunded the identical BTC amount.

[bravenec]

There is a new email from me to Coinabul:

http://bravenec.eu/coinabul/

[2weiX]

As a competitor of sorts to coinabul I have kept out of these threads for now.
I am, just as in the BFL refund case, of the opinion that coinabul owes the price of the product in USD.

Aside from how the whole thing was handled, the buyer has parted with his BTC and has bought a Krugerrand.

He will be refunded an amount of any currency that allows him to buy one Krugerrand (ie he is refunded "The Krugerrand" in-like).


That being said, I would happily act as a middle man for OP.
I will sell ship a Krugerrand to CZR *at cost* (under 40 BTC right now).
FedEx insured door-to-door.
Should OP agree to this, he may take it up to coinabul and then PM me for details.
With this, I will withdraw from the thread.

[aric]

There is a new email from me to Coinabul:

http://bravenec.eu/coinabul/

Don't argue with them over market prices. This is a very simple matter. Correct me if I'm wrong.

• You gave them 90+ BTC for a product.
• They didn't have the product and/or were unable to send it.
• They kept your 90+ BTC.

You are not responsible if they sell your BTC in the meanwhile. They are. No legit business would spend someone's funds before the delivery is fully completed, let alone spend it without even sending the product! Accepting anything less than a full 90+ BTC refund is unacceptable. Also, it's entirely disrespectful of them if they're trying to weasel you around to get free bitcoins from you.

[aric]

As a competitor of sorts to coinabul I have kept out of these threads for now.
I am, just as in the BFL refund case, of the opinion that coinabul owes the price of the product in USD.

Aside from how the whole thing was handled, the buyer has parted with his BTC and has bought a Krugerrand.

He will be refunded an amount of any currency that allows him to buy one Krugerrand (ie he is refunded "The Krugerrand" in-like).


That being said, I would happily act as a middle man for OP.
I will sell ship a Krugerrand to CZR *at cost* (under 40 BTC right now).
FedEx insured door-to-door.
Should OP agree to this, he may take it up to coinabul and then PM me for details.
With this, I will withdraw from the thread.

No, that isn't valid. People transact in bitcoin for a reason: to not transact in USD. Bitcoin is its own denomination. It stands completely independent of USD. Any other practice allows the seller to take a buyer's money if the relative value of their bitcoins increases. Likewise, no matter how low the bitcoin value goes down, the refund would still be in BTC. The thought of spending other people's money and hedging on customers is offensive and crooked.

We're not talking about a person who's unhappy with a product they received. We're talking about a person who was never sent the product.

[HighInBC]

The refund should be given in the exact currency paid, bitcoins.

If I traded 55 oz of silver coins for 1 gold coin and you never delivered the gold coin and the silver/gold ratio changed to 30 would you only give back 30 oz of silver? The idea that you have to sell a coin back to them instead of getting a refund nonsense, he paid for delivery so he either gets it delivered or a full refund.

USD don't enter into it. If the person wanted to trade in USD they likely would have gone to a conventional gold dealer.

No company should use their customer as a hedge. It is not the customers fault that the company spent bitcoins on gold that they could not ship before the price in bitcoins went down.

They need either send the metal he paid for or return all of the payment. To give back less bitcoins than paid it nothing short of a rip off.

[prezbo]

As a competitor of sorts to coinabul I have kept out of these threads for now.
I am, just as in the BFL refund case, of the opinion that coinabul owes the price of the product in USD.

Aside from how the whole thing was handled, the buyer has parted with his BTC and has bought a Krugerrand.

He will be refunded an amount of any currency that allows him to buy one Krugerrand (ie he is refunded "The Krugerrand" in-like).


That being said, I would happily act as a middle man for OP.
I will sell ship a Krugerrand to CZR *at cost* (under 40 BTC right now).
FedEx insured door-to-door.
Should OP agree to this, he may take it up to coinabul and then PM me for details.
With this, I will withdraw from the thread.

If you're from europe definitely use this guy ^^. He's awesome.

[bravenec]

As a competitor of sorts to coinabul I have kept out of these threads for now.
I am, just as in the BFL refund case, of the opinion that coinabul owes the price of the product in USD.

Aside from how the whole thing was handled, the buyer has parted with his BTC and has bought a Krugerrand.

He will be refunded an amount of any currency that allows him to buy one Krugerrand (ie he is refunded "The Krugerrand" in-like).


That being said, I would happily act as a middle man for OP.
I will sell ship a Krugerrand to CZR *at cost* (under 40 BTC right now).
FedEx insured door-to-door.
Should OP agree to this, he may take it up to coinabul and then PM me for details.
With this, I will withdraw from the thread.

Thank you. This is what I wanted and what I offered to Coinabul a week ago. I want to make trade and I will be happy if I get Krugerrand for my bitcoins spent. I will contact Coinabul and send him this offer again.

[SgtSpike]

The refund should be given in the exact currency paid, bitcoins.

If I traded 55 oz of silver coins for 1 gold coin and you never delivered the gold coin and the silver/gold ratio changed to 30 would you only give back 30 oz of silver? The idea that you have to sell a coin back to them instead of getting a refund nonsense, he paid for delivery so he either gets it delivered or a full refund.

USD don't enter into it. If the person wanted to trade in USD they likely would have gone to a conventional gold dealer.

No company should use their customer as a hedge. It is not the customers fault that the company spent bitcoins on gold that they could not ship before the price in bitcoins went down.

They need either send the metal he paid for or return all of the payment. To give back less bitcoins than paid it nothing short of a rip off.

As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.

[aric]

As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.

It wouldn't matter if a page showed USD prices along with BTC. Paying in BTC implies being refunded the full/original BTC amount, no matter what USD prices are on the page. Anything else is a seller hedging value against the buyer.

[2weiX]

As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.

It wouldn't matter if a page showed USD prices along with BTC. Paying in BTC implies being refunded the full/original BTC amount, no matter what USD prices are on the page. Anything else is a seller hedging value against the buyer.

by the same reasoning you can buy 1oz now, then come back 5 weeks later and say "BTC has doubled, send me another 1oz, ok"




not.

[aric]

As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.

It wouldn't matter if a page showed USD prices along with BTC. Paying in BTC implies being refunded the full/original BTC amount, no matter what USD prices are on the page. Anything else is a seller hedging value against the buyer.

by the same reasoning you can buy 1oz now, then come back 5 weeks later and say "BTC has doubled, send me another 1oz, ok"




not.

No. Read this person's issue again. He didn't receive a product. The product wasn't even sent.

He can't come back weeks later and expect a refund in anything other than the original amount of BTC he paid. Likewise, he can't expect more than the original amount of metal he purchased, as you highlight. The comparative rate of BTC is meaningless. If Coinabul can't provide the product in a timely manner, then they can't. That means the refund is in BTC. It doesn't matter if BTC crashes to $1 USD: 1 BTC either. Refunding in a different BTC amount is inexcusable. Doing otherwise is laughably unfair. I'm surprised by anyone who doesn't realize that.

[HighInBC]

As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.

It wouldn't matter if a page showed USD prices along with BTC. Paying in BTC implies being refunded the full/original BTC amount, no matter what USD prices are on the page. Anything else is a seller hedging value against the buyer.

by the same reasoning you can buy 1oz now, then come back 5 weeks later and say "BTC has doubled, send me another 1oz, ok"




not.

This is specious reasoning. We are talking about failure to deliver a product here, not someone changing their mind when the price changes.

[2weiX]

As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.

It wouldn't matter if a page showed USD prices along with BTC. Paying in BTC implies being refunded the full/original BTC amount, no matter what USD prices are on the page. Anything else is a seller hedging value against the buyer.

by the same reasoning you can buy 1oz now, then come back 5 weeks later and say "BTC has doubled, send me another 1oz, ok"




not.

This is specious reasoning. We are talking about failure to deliver a product here, not someone changing their mind when the price changes.

I know what everyone's talking about.

I just think that the two issues are, well, different matters, and that most of you have fallen into the "bitcoin is a value-storing-commodity" trap instead of realizing that bitcoin is a means of MOVING value.

in this case, X Bitcoins have been used to move the value of $item from A to B.

But hey, that's just my opinion, IANAL. Also, it could be avoided by just delivering $item by any which means.

[HighInBC]

Bitcoins are a currency. They are not tied to the US dollar. When you send bitcoins you are sending bitcoins not USD.

Bitcoins are a value storing commodity, and a currency.

If I ordered from you and you could not deliver I would expect to be refunded in the same currency I paid with. If you tried to adjust the refund based on some foreign nation's rapidly dropping currency I would be right here posting about it too.

[2weiX]

Bitcoins are a currency. They are not tied to the US dollar. When you send bitcoins you are sending bitcoins not USD.

Bitcoins are a value storing commodity, and a currency.

If I ordered from you and you could not deliver I would expect to be refunded in the same currency I paid with. If you tried to adjust the refund based on some foreign nation's rapidly dropping currency I would be right here posting about it too.

time for me to change my ToS, then ^^

[HighInBC]

time for me to change my ToS, then ^^

I will be sure to read it thoroughly before ordering.

I agree that if you state in your TOS that prices are set in USD and refunds will be given based on that then you are being fair.

[2weiX]

time for me to change my ToS, then ^^

I will be sure to read it thoroughly before ordering.

I agree that if you state in your TOS that prices are set in USD and refunds will be given based on that then you are being fair.

Think this sentence makes it clear?

If we have to refund, we will do so according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time.

Longer version:

In the case that we have to refund you, we will refund you in a currency of your choice (USD, EUR, BTC) according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time the order was placed.

[aric]

time for me to change my ToS, then ^^

I will be sure to read it thoroughly before ordering.

I agree that if you state in your TOS that prices are set in USD and refunds will be given based on that then you are being fair.

Think this sentence makes it clear?

If we have to refund, we will do so according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time.

Longer version:

In the case that we have to refund you, we will refund you in a currency of your choice (USD, EUR, BTC) according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time the order was placed.

Yikes. Is that really the business practice you want to engage in?

What if you don't even send the product, as is the case of this thread? You're going to "refund" (i.e. give the person his money back -- the money that was never yours to begin with) in a different currency because you want to keep some of it?

[dayfall]

I think the value is what needs to be refunded.  That is about 40BTC right now.  That way, no one is really at a loss.  Of course, my reasoning falls apart when you consider that if the price of gold doubled then it would be ok to send only half an ounce; if you consider things as only the value they represent.  But, Gold is a commodity and Bitcoin is a currency.  Bitcoins represent buying power, and so if 40 BTC were refunded then the gold coin could just be bought elsewhere.  This way no one could hedge anyone (as far as the currencies are concerned).

[aric]

I think the value is what needs to be refunded.  That is about 40BTC right now.  That way, no one is really at a loss.  Of course, my reasoning falls apart when you consider that if the price of gold doubled then it would be ok to send only half an ounce; if you consider things as only the value they represent.  But, Gold is a commodity and Bitcoin is a currency.  Bitcoins represent buying power, and so if 40 BTC were refunded then the gold coin could just be bought elsewhere.  This way no one could hedge anyone (as far as the currencies are concerned).

WTF? Scenario:

• Buyer pays you 100 BTC for something.
• BTC's worth doubles in USD.
• You don't send what Buyer ordered.
• Buyer (obviously) wants a refund.
• You'd then try to only owe Buyer 50 BTC?

The only one getting screwed would be the Buyer. Comparative value is meaningless. The Buyer cares about what he paid in his/her bitcoin. Alternatively, if bitcoin became half as much in USD, Buyer would still be owed 100 BTC. How is it possible to not see how unfair it is to be refunded in anything other than the original amount?

[Raoul Duke]

Bitcoin is a currency.

Citation needed.

[2weiX]

time for me to change my ToS, then ^^

I will be sure to read it thoroughly before ordering.

I agree that if you state in your TOS that prices are set in USD and refunds will be given based on that then you are being fair.

Think this sentence makes it clear?

If we have to refund, we will do so according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time.

Longer version:

In the case that we have to refund you, we will refund you in a currency of your choice (USD, EUR, BTC) according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time the order was placed.

Yikes. Is that really the business practice you want to engage in?

What if you don't even send the product, as is the case of this thread? You're going to "refund" (i.e. give the person his money back -- the money that was never yours to begin with) in a different currency because you want to keep some of it?

I dont intend to even once have to refund anyone for whatever.
Just making sure.

[HighInBC]

Bitcoin is a currency.

Citation needed.

Currency: The fact or quality of being generally accepted or in use.

The very fact that it is being used as a medium of exchange makes it currency.

[Scott J]

I think the value is what needs to be refunded.  That is about 40BTC right now.  That way, no one is really at a loss.  Of course, my reasoning falls apart when you consider that if the price of gold doubled then it would be ok to send only half an ounce; if you consider things as only the value they represent.  But, Gold is a commodity and Bitcoin is a currency.  Bitcoins represent buying power, and so if 40 BTC were refunded then the gold coin could just be bought elsewhere.  This way no one could hedge anyone (as far as the currencies are concerned).

WTF? Scenario:

• Buyer pays you 100 BTC for something.
• BTC's worth doubles in USD.
• You don't send what Buyer ordered.
• Buyer (obviously) wants a refund.
• You'd then try to only owe Buyer 50 BTC?

The only one getting screwed would be the Buyer. Comparative value is meaningless. The Buyer cares about what he paid in his/her bitcoin. Alternatively, if bitcoin became half as much in USD, Buyer would still be owed 100 BTC. How is it possible to not see how unfair it is to be refunded in anything other than the original amount?

IT IS THIS SIMPLE

[Raoul Duke]

Bitcoin is a currency.

Citation needed.

Currency: The fact or quality of being generally accepted or in use.

The very fact that it is being used as a medium of exchange makes it currency.

So are cigarettes.

Bitcoin is so much more than that. Traditional definitions don't work.
But I suppose you can call it a currency. And I may call it a payment network. Others may say it's both. It's complicated

[2weiX]

time for me to change my ToS, then ^^

I will be sure to read it thoroughly before ordering.

I agree that if you state in your TOS that prices are set in USD and refunds will be given based on that then you are being fair.

Think this sentence makes it clear?

If we have to refund, we will do so according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time.

Longer version:

In the case that we have to refund you, we will refund you in a currency of your choice (USD, EUR, BTC) according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time the order was placed.

Yikes. Is that really the business practice you want to engage in?

What if you don't even send the product, as is the case of this thread? You're going to "refund" (i.e. give the person his money back -- the money that was never yours to begin with) in a different currency because you want to keep some of it?

I agree that it's a borderline issue. However, seeing that in .de the customer has explicitly NO right to ask for a refund or return when buying PMs (because the items are subject to exchange rate fluctuation), I would further argue that here the same is the case.

So either see that the guy gets the Rand or refund the VALUE of the rand.



Turn it around - you actually deliver, the price falls, you will NOT get 1605USD for your coin, but only 1500USD.

I agree that the circumstances are different, but the principle applied is the same.

Disclaimer: IMHO, since IANAL.

[aric]

I agree that it's a borderline issue. However, seeing that in .de the customer has explicitly NO right to ask for a refund or return when buying PMs (because the items are subject to exchange rate fluctuation), I would further argue that here the same is the case.

So either see that the guy gets the Rand or refund the VALUE of the rand.



Turn it around - you actually deliver, the price falls, you will NOT get 1605USD for your coin, but only 1500USD.

I agree that the circumstances are different, but the principle applied is the same.

Disclaimer: IMHO, since IANAL.

It's not a borderline issue.

It's a very simple issue. Refunding the "value" of something in different (and lesser) denomination than you gave is completely crooked. We're not talking about returns. We're talking about refunding the failed purchase of an item that never shipped. I don't understand why this is so hard to appreciate and comprehend. This is basic business and accounting 101.

[bravenec]

I agree that it's a borderline issue. However, seeing that in .de the customer has explicitly NO right to ask for a refund or return when buying PMs (because the items are subject to exchange rate fluctuation), I would further argue that here the same is the case.

So either see that the guy gets the Rand or refund the VALUE of the rand.

Turn it around - you actually deliver, the price falls, you will NOT get 1605USD for your coin, but only 1500USD.

I agree that the circumstances are different, but the principle applied is the same.

Disclaimer: IMHO, since IANAL.

The same in Czech republic - customer has no right to ask for a refund or return at the buyig price if the price depends on the exchange rate. But accordance to Czech republic laws such trade never hapened. I ordered Krugerand + shipping + insurance + express delivery as a complete set. The item was never sent to me. No trade was made. All money must be sent back to me.

I like the equotation

"The Krugerrand" = 90 BTC

So I want to make trade => I have my Krugerrand + shipping + insurance,
or
make no trade => I have my bitcoins.

I gave Coinabul many propositions. One proposition was "man in the middle" - the same offer you gave me. It was said to me that this is illegal. I gave Coinabul this proposition again now. We will see what happen.

[HighInBC]

Why is it illegal to send a krug to the Czech republic? Part of an embargo against South Africa, or is it for any type of precious metals?

[2weiX]

Why is it illegal to send a krug to the Czech republic? Part of an embargo against South Africa, or is it for any type of precious metals?

nope, my fedex ships to CZR.

[Bitinvestor]

Why is it illegal to send a krug to the Czech republic? Part of an embargo against South Africa, or is it for any type of precious metals?

It isn't illegal. Coinabul made it up as a reason for why they didn't send his gold. Maybe they pocketed the insurance payout from the other poster as well?

Edit: I take this back. For reason see below.

[bravenec]

Why is it illegal to send a krug to the Czech republic? Part of an embargo against South Africa, or is it for any type of precious metals?

I don't know why it is illegal. May be the Czech republic is part of South Africa or North Korea? I don't know :-)

Citation of Jay Coinabul:

Nor would I be able to have some other courier type deliver your parcel: there's no way we can legally deliver your product to you ...

Whole email conversation is here:

http://bravenec.eu/coinabul/

Think about the "ilegality" whatever you want. I think that the "ilegality" is only a special purpose.

[Bitinvestor]

Why is it illegal to send a krug to the Czech republic? Part of an embargo against South Africa, or is it for any type of precious metals?

It isn't illegal. Coinabul made it up as a reason for why they didn't send his gold. Maybe they pocketed the insurance payout from the other poster as well?

I googled it and I found this:

Coins; banknotes; currency notes, including paper money; securities of any kind payable to bearer; traveler’s checks; platinum, gold, and silver; precious stones; jewelry; watches; and other valuable articles are prohibited in Express Mail International shipments to the Czech Republic.

http://pe.usps.com/text/imm/ce_019.htm

I don't know if this applies only to USPS or to other couriers as well.

Edit:
Fedex has similar restrictions:

General Import Restrictions
The following items are not acceptable for carriage to any international destinations unless otherwise indicated.
...
Money (coins, cash, currency, paper money and negotiable instruments equivalent to cash such as endorsed stocks, bonds and cash letters).

http://www.fedex.com/us/international/irc/profiles/irc_cz_profile.html?gtmcc=us

[dayfall]

WTF? Scenario:

• Buyer pays you 100 BTC for something.
• BTC's worth doubles in USD.
• You don't send what Buyer ordered.
• Buyer (obviously) wants a refund.
• You'd then try to only owe Buyer 50 BTC?

The only one getting screwed would be the Buyer. Comparative value is meaningless. The Buyer cares about what he paid in his/her bitcoin. Alternatively, if bitcoin became half as much in USD, Buyer would still be owed 100 BTC. How is it possible to not see how unfair it is to be refunded in anything other than the original amount?

Suppose, the Gold coin was sent.  The buyer still gets screwed (because his good is only worth 50 when he paid 100) by that logic.  

In your way, the buyer takes the risk and the seller may manipulate the refund for their own profit.   If the value rises then give the goods.  If the value falls then "oops, we were actually out of stock" and give a refund.  (I know it didn't happen in this case, but I have no doubt that it has happened)

In my way the seller takes the risk and buyer doesn't' care if the refund happens.  Independent of the value of Bitcoins and whether the refund occurs, the Buyer still has the same buying power and may buy the same product elsewhere.  Independent of a corrupt seller, the buyer can end up with what they wanted by loosing no extra money!

(And people think about the value of their Bitcoins anytime they make a purchase, not the number.  If that wasn't the case then no one would have bought a pizza for 10,000.)

I actually can't see how your method is fair and mine is unfair.  I would say that refunding only 100 if the value dropped was unfair.  I would certainly feel cheated and suspect foul play.

[zebedee]

Paying back 90.78 BTC now would be over $4085~. The 1603 USD amount is too low, and they should send back whatever amount in USD you paid that day, including the shipping/insurance etc, via BTC to you.

Dude, that's tough for Coinabul.  What are you thinking?

They accepted his order for delivery to Czech Republic.  If they can't deliver, they should refund him what he paid, not make excuses about markets moving.  Had BTC gone to $5 I'm quite sure they'd be sending him BTC.

This is bullshit.

[aric]

WTF? Scenario:

• Buyer pays you 100 BTC for something.
• BTC's worth doubles in USD.
• You don't send what Buyer ordered.
• Buyer (obviously) wants a refund.
• You'd then try to only owe Buyer 50 BTC?

The only one getting screwed would be the Buyer. Comparative value is meaningless. The Buyer cares about what he paid in his/her bitcoin. Alternatively, if bitcoin became half as much in USD, Buyer would still be owed 100 BTC. How is it possible to not see how unfair it is to be refunded in anything other than the original amount?

Suppose, the Gold coin was sent.  The buyer still gets screwed (because his good is only worth 50 when he paid 100) by that logic.  

In your way, the buyer takes the risk and the seller may manipulate the refund for their own profit.   If the value rises then give the goods.  If the value falls then "oops, we were actually out of stock" and give a refund.  (I know it didn't happen in this case, but I have no doubt that it has happened)

In my way the seller takes the risk and buyer doesn't' care if the refund happens.  Independent of the value of Bitcoins and whether the refund occurs, the Buyer still has the same buying power and may buy the same product elsewhere.  Independent of a corrupt seller, the buyer can end up with what they wanted by loosing no extra money!

(And people think about the value of their Bitcoins anytime they make a purchase, not the number.  If that wasn't the case then no one would have bought a pizza for 10,000.)

I actually can't see how your method is fair and mine is unfair.  I would say that refunding only 100 if the value dropped was unfair.  I would certainly feel cheated and suspect foul play.

I mean no offense but I'm having a hard time following your points. You might be completely misrepresenting what I said and the situation at hand, but it's hard to decipher your conclusions. The risk is always with the Seller if he or she doesn't provide the product. That's how almost all respectable and honest businesses operate, naturally.

You're posing a new hypothetical where the gold is sent? If the gold is sent and it's legit (i.e. the correct amount of gold is sent) then matters of returns and refunding depend on the time frame of a Seller's policies and guarantees. Assuming the transaction was honest and delivered, the Buyer could not later seek a full refund in BTC (such as if BTC is relatively worth more). The discretion of the Seller's policies come into play on how to reimburse. However, let's say the gold was sent but it was a fake or half the gold or some such. Then the buyer would still be entitled to a full refund in the original BTC amount. None of this is the actual situation that took place, though.

That's why smart retailers don't write checks their asses can't cash. They don't spend a customer's money until a safe time period has passed, as to ensure against loss -- especially when dealing with the risk of fluctuating markets. Many retailers in USD, for instance, generally never treat sales as usable revenue until at least 30-90 days have passed. That ensures against the risk of chargebacks, ACH reversals, returns, and failures -- like the failure to deliver. Sellers handling BTC bear the responsibility for keeping that BTC on hand in the event of such failures. It's not the Buyer's burden. Even more offensive is the notion that a business would spend someone else's BTC when they can't and won't deliver, and then try to delay matters and make off with all or part of that person's BTC payment. Can't pay what's due? Can't handle the risks? Can't resolve matters kindly and promptly? I know what I call a service that does that. Maybe they started out with better intentions but it doesn't negate current behavior.

[Zeeks]

I'm noticing a pattern and not just with coinabul going by the posts in the scam forum and people bitching in irc. Company takes an order and if bitcoin's USD price on mtgox is on an upswing they hold it and wait. They string along the customer for a while then refund them their BTC... at the new rate. Pocketing a nice profit. It's pretty disgusting.

[bravenec]

This whole situation is obviously reeks of scam.  The only reason he is getting away with it, is because somebody doesn't have the fortitude to stick a hot poker in the fucker's (coinabul) eye.

Another sad part of this, is he still seems to be a member in good standing at #bitcoin-otc.  I must say, that the leadership at #bitcoin-otc as also guilty by association at this point.

Please, do you know how to update their status on the #bitcoin-otc ?

[poly]

This whole situation is obviously reeks of scam.  The only reason he is getting away with it, is because somebody doesn't have the fortitude to stick a hot poker in the fucker's (coinabul) eye.

Another sad part of this, is he still seems to be a member in good standing at #bitcoin-otc.  I must say, that the leadership at #bitcoin-otc as also guilty by association at this point.

Please, do you know how to update their status on the #bitcoin-otc ?

You can rate Coinabul yourself if you are an otc user.

[bravenec]

This whole situation is obviously reeks of scam.  The only reason he is getting away with it, is because somebody doesn't have the fortitude to stick a hot poker in the fucker's (coinabul) eye.

Another sad part of this, is he still seems to be a member in good standing at #bitcoin-otc.  I must say, that the leadership at #bitcoin-otc as also guilty by association at this point.

Please, do you know how to update their status on the #bitcoin-otc ?

You can rate Coinabul yourself if you are an otc user.

Thanks. I will register and rate Coinabul there.

[poly]

I don't think coinabul is actually registered for otc, you'll have to rate one of the owners on OTC.

[bravenec]

I don't think coinabul is actually registered for otc, you'll have to rate one of the owners on OTC.

OK. Then I will contact user nanotubes on irc to inform him about Coinabul.

[JoelKatz]

As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.

It wouldn't matter if a page showed USD prices along with BTC. Paying in BTC implies being refunded the full/original BTC amount, no matter what USD prices are on the page. Anything else is a seller hedging value against the buyer.

by the same reasoning you can buy 1oz now, then come back 5 weeks later and say "BTC has doubled, send me another 1oz, ok"

not.

That's the opposite reasoning not the same reasoning. If you're going to apply the same reasoning to the opposite situation, you get the opposite result, not the same result. You are arguing that the same reason applied to the opposite situation gives the same result, which it doesn't.

The reasoning is that no party has the opportunity to make a strategic decision to change the terms from what was agreed if they are better off with different ones at the expense of the other party. If a party makes the decision to cancel or seek a refund or whatever, this decision may not make them better off at the expense of the other party compared to what would happen if they went through with the sale as agreed.

[Coinabul]

date:    Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 2:22 PM

Hi Petr,

Thanks for being patient with us over the weekend, I sent some money to MtGox to give you a MTGOX-USD code but had a delay along the way- it's ready now. Let me know if you have a MtGox account to receive the $1603 on your buyback, or if you need me to purchase Bitcoins and withdraw them to an address instead.

Thanks,
Jay

I've been trying to refund his coin along with the shipping cost(of course) for nearly two weeks now - he continually refuses my attempts to do so, and requests that we break the laws of the country in which he resides instead which is obviously not a possibility.


Beyond that, our International Shipping page is quite clear:
"You are responsible for assuring that any product you order can be lawfully imported to your destination country. When ordering from Coinabul.com, the recipient(purchaser) is the legal importer of record and must comply with all laws and regulations of your destination country."

No matter what the origin country, precious metals are unable to be imported into his nation(see http://countries.bridgat.com/Czech_Republic_Import_Restrictions.html http://www.fedex.com/us/international/irc/profiles/irc_cz_profile.html http://pe.usps.com/text/imm/ce_019.htm). Since I saw this issue pop up after having no order volume to the Czech Republic until a couple of weeks ago, the Czech Republic has been disabled entirely in our system. We remove any countries that are glaringly obvious, but with 244 countries and countless territories in service, as well as language barriers for many of them which makes research very difficult, it's nearly impossible to verify on our end which countries across the globe have a specific ban on the import of precious metals, hence the special International Orders page linked to from the footer on every page within our site.


Bitcoin is heavily volatile- when a customer places an order, we replace his metal within our reserves, ship the order and convert the BTC to fiat as quickly as possible in order to preserve the spot indices as closely as we can between order placement and completion. Once an order comes in, the conversion process engages, and the customer owns their chosen metal from that point forward.

We deal with millions of dollars worth of bitcoins- sitting on that kind of risk profile is averse to the entire concept of the business via preserving wealth via stable precious metals. If someone bought $1,000 of gold when BTC is at $50, then it suddenly falls to $2/coin as it has in the past, and assuming that gold stays stable as it tends to they'd be getting a refund of $1000 in either straight fiat on MtGox(our prefered for the transitory capability) or coins at the updated rate- not $40 worth of BTC. The same goes inversely.

If in the prior scenario gold skyrockets to 10x the value, the customer would get $10,000 as the refund instead of $1,000. Once the transaction is engaged in by the customer, the turbines spin up on our side to fill it as humanly fast as possible, and the customer owns metal as opposed to Bitcoins, as do we since we've already started replacing the metal that we've allocated to fill the customer's order. If the customer needs a refund, we'll refund the equivalent value of their metal provided we're legally allowed to.

Our TOS states this quite succintly:
"If an order cannot be filled by Coinabul we will either: provide a substitute product of your choice of equivalent value, or provide a refund, minus any market loss incurred and at our discretion."

We'll happily refund the going market value of the customer's metal + shipping costs whenever we are not specifically legally banned from doing so, and that hasn't happened yet.

I've emailed Petr again just a few minutes ago as I have been for a couple weeks trying to send him a refund, ideally in USD so he can be poised to repurchase bitcoins when they're close to his original price point(as he could have over the last week had he accepted my continual attempts to refund him previously).

[bravenec]

Hi Jay

You are trying to refund me the trade which never happened.
I have no gold, never had any gold and you make nothing to send the gold to me.
I do not want money for gold which I never had.

Now I send to Jay this email:

I want to make the trade and I accepted the price "The Krugerrand" = "90 BTC".
So this is third time I offer you this:

Buy the Krugerrand for me elsewhere in Europe and send it to me.

I have offer from this company:

http://www.bitcoincommodities.com/

to act as a man in the middle for such trade. They sell to US and Europe
and there would be no problem for them to make such trade. Please, contact
user "2weiX" on bitcointal.org forum and ask him for details.

You have received from me:
90.78 BTC at BTC/USD rate 21.18 = 1922 USD.
As a BTC/USD rate is taken the closing price from MtGox Feb 6.

Buy from bitcoincommodities.com gold Krugerrand for todays price
1709 USD + shipping and everyone will be happy.

Petr

[bravenec]

Uchhhh, the sentence : "Now I send to Jay this email:" is located inside the mail :-(

[bravenec]

I'd like to note that Coinabul offered me to refund gold "at the current spot price". This is the first email from them in which they offered me to refund the shipping also.

[DarkHyudrA]

I think the value is what needs to be refunded.  That is about 40BTC right now.  That way, no one is really at a loss.  Of course, my reasoning falls apart when you consider that if the price of gold doubled then it would be ok to send only half an ounce; if you consider things as only the value they represent.  But, Gold is a commodity and Bitcoin is a currency.  Bitcoins represent buying power, and so if 40 BTC were refunded then the gold coin could just be bought elsewhere.  This way no one could hedge anyone (as far as the currencies are concerned).

AH yeah so let's refund 40BTC and keep 50 BTC, profit for doing nothing.

[2weiX]

I think the value is what needs to be refunded.  That is about 40BTC right now.  That way, no one is really at a loss.  Of course, my reasoning falls apart when you consider that if the price of gold doubled then it would be ok to send only half an ounce; if you consider things as only the value they represent.  But, Gold is a commodity and Bitcoin is a currency.  Bitcoins represent buying power, and so if 40 BTC were refunded then the gold coin could just be bought elsewhere.  This way no one could hedge anyone (as far as the currencies are concerned).

AH yeah so let's refund 40BTC and keep 50 BTC, profit for doing nothing.

safe bet is coinabul automatically sold the btc shortly after receipt, so no "profit" there.
only theoretically.

[rpietila]

Considering that:
- The buyer is willing to receive the Krugerrand he bought,
- It may get Coinabul into trouble, to send Gold to a country where it is not allowed to do so, and
- 2weiX is willing to ship the coin to the buyer, and Coinabul can easily pay him the market price of the said coin,

I believe that this is a reasonable way to make all parties happy.

[bravenec]

I think the value is what needs to be refunded.  That is about 40BTC right now.  That way, no one is really at a loss.  Of course, my reasoning falls apart when you consider that if the price of gold doubled then it would be ok to send only half an ounce; if you consider things as only the value they represent.  But, Gold is a commodity and Bitcoin is a currency.  Bitcoins represent buying power, and so if 40 BTC were refunded then the gold coin could just be bought elsewhere.  This way no one could hedge anyone (as far as the currencies are concerned).

AH yeah so let's refund 40BTC and keep 50 BTC, profit for doing nothing.

safe bet is coinabul automatically sold the btc shortly after receipt, so no "profit" there.
only theoretically.

Yes. I think so. They have no hedging against the bitcoin market moves so they are not willing to refund in bitcoins.

[bravenec]

Considering that:
- The buyer is willing to receive the Krugerrand he bought,
- It may get Coinabul into trouble, to send Gold to a country where it is not allowed to do so, and
- 2weiX is willing to ship the coin to the buyer, and Coinabul can easily pay him the market price of the said coin,

I believe that this is a reasonable way to make all parties happy.

Yes. I have offered this to Coinabul three times.

[rpietila]

Considering that:
- The buyer is willing to receive the Krugerrand he bought,
- It may get Coinabul into trouble, to send Gold to a country where it is not allowed to do so, and
- 2weiX is willing to ship the coin to the buyer, and Coinabul can easily pay him the market price of the said coin,

I believe that this is a reasonable way to make all parties happy.

Yes. I have offered this to Coinabul three times.

Yes. If I were Coinabul, I would accept this with apologies.

Even as I am not Coinabul, I am willing to apologize all who feel that I am a jerk, and try to serve them better in the future.

[JoelKatz]

Beyond that, our International Shipping page is quite clear:
"You are responsible for assuring that any product you order can be lawfully imported to your destination country. When ordering from Coinabul.com, the recipient(purchaser) is the legal importer of record and must comply with all laws and regulations of your destination country."

Fedex's terms at http://www.fedex.com/us/international/irc/profiles/irc_cz_profile.html say, "An export license is also required when exporting toxic commodities, steel and steel products, precious metals, raw wood and wood products." Coinabul is the exporter, right?

[2weiX]

Another reason to order from within the EU when being in the EU.

As a European Union Member, the free movement of goods between Member States is allowed. The current members are: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Denmark, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Sweden, Spain and United Kingdom. EU members form a customs union that calls for free trade and the absence of customs duties and quotas on trade among members.

[rpietila]

Another reason to order from within the EU when being in the EU.

EU is restoring our liberties! Hooray

[2weiX]

Another reason to order from within the EU when being in the EU.

EU is restoring our liberties! Hooray

heh.
well, at leas it allows transport of goods from A to B, amirite?

[rpietila]

Another reason to order from within the EU when being in the EU.

EU is restoring our liberties! Hooray

heh.
well, at leas it allows transport of goods from A to B, amirite?

Yes. Considering that this right was suspended for us between 1914-1995, there is a reason to celebrate! 

[bravenec]

Beyond that, our International Shipping page is quite clear:
"You are responsible for assuring that any product you order can be lawfully imported to your destination country. When ordering from Coinabul.com, the recipient(purchaser) is the legal importer of record and must comply with all laws and regulations of your destination country."

Fedex's terms at http://www.fedex.com/us/international/irc/profiles/irc_cz_profile.html say, "An export license is also required when exporting toxic commodities, steel and steel products, precious metals, raw wood and wood products." Coinabul is the exporter, right?

Now I carefully read the part of "International Shipping" page sent to me from Coinabul:

> General Customs + Tax Information:
> You are responsible for assuring that any product you order can be
> lawfully imported to your destination country. When ordering from
> Coinabul.com, the recipient(purchaser) is the legal importer of record and
> must comply with all laws and regulations of your destination country.

As far as I know there is no law forbiding ME to import gold to Czech Republic.

Coinabul did not know that they must have licence to export gold to Czech republic and now they says it is MY responsibility.

[Raoul Duke]

BRB, opening a bitcoin webshop to accept orders from every country in the world, even ones I can't ship to...
We'll figure it later, after you pay, if you'll get your stuff or a refund in whatever currency gives me more profit.

[SgtSpike]

Considering that:
- The buyer is willing to receive the Krugerrand he bought,
- It may get Coinabul into trouble, to send Gold to a country where it is not allowed to do so, and
- 2weiX is willing to ship the coin to the buyer, and Coinabul can easily pay him the market price of the said coin,

I believe that this is a reasonable way to make all parties happy.

How is Coinabul supposed to trust 2weiX to ship the goods?  What happens if that package is "lost" - who pays for it?

No, the best way to make all parties happy is for Coinabul to refund the full amount in USD equivalent as their policy states.  Including shipping (why they didn't include shipping as part of the refund to begin with is beyond me).  The customer can then take his business directly to 2weiX and deal with him without having Coinabul as a middleman.

[bravenec]

From the beginning this is Coinabul's fault. They are offering services they are not licensed to. Look for the value they offered me as a refund and tell me: where is a _licensed_ eshop where I can buy Krugerand + shipping + insurance for 1603 USD? Is such eshop existing? This is the reason why I demanded such solution.

[rpietila]

Considering that:
- The buyer is willing to receive the Krugerrand he bought,
- It may get Coinabul into trouble, to send Gold to a country where it is not allowed to do so, and
- 2weiX is willing to ship the coin to the buyer, and Coinabul can easily pay him the market price of the said coin,

I believe that this is a reasonable way to make all parties happy.

How is Coinabul supposed to trust 2weiX to ship the goods?  What happens if that package is "lost" - who pays for it?

No, the best way to make all parties happy is for Coinabul to refund the full amount in USD equivalent as their policy states.  Including shipping (why they didn't include shipping as part of the refund to begin with is beyond me).  The customer can then take his business directly to 2weiX and deal with him without having Coinabul as a middleman.

Hm, undecided   Upon lock-in, the seller transferred the ownership of a Krugerrand to the buyer and undertook a commitment to deliver it to the buyer. The buyer could not reasonably have been aware that the seller cannot deliver to his country, as importing is not forbidden, and the country was available in the seller's list. As seller is canceling the deal because of his own fault to deliver, he needs to make sure the customer is not worse off than he would have been, if the seller had delivered.

Even if seller's terms say something, they may not be used to defraud a buyer who has not committed a fault. Especially as it only costs them about $100 (or nothing, depending on if and when they transferred the Krugerrand back to themselves).

I got a reply from Coinabul regarding the other one, and it was very courteous and on top of the situation. I am sure they understand how to deal with this one also.

[dayfall]

That's why smart retailers don't write checks their asses can't cash. They don't spend a customer's money until a safe time period has passed, as to ensure against loss

We both know that Coinabul made a bogus argument when it said it sold the BTC and hence couldn't return it, so I don't know why you are explaining this to me.  You have not explained why my method is not "kindly", you have only explained what a business should do if your refund method is used.  I don't care one bit how the business handles the money internally.

I mean no offense but I'm having a hard time following your points. You might be completely misrepresenting what I said and the situation at hand, but it's hard to decipher your conclusions. The risk is always with the Seller if he or she doesn't provide the product.

OK, I'll explain it this way.  You say the risk is with the seller, and you say the buyer should get the refund in the original amount of BTC.  So, if the bitcoin crashes and the seller (whoops) can't ship the product, then it can, without any foul, refund the original amount of Bitcoins.  But there is no risk to the seller.  This is a contradiction.  Hence one of your two premises are incorrect.  Because the seller normally has the choice of refunding or shipping the product, the seller has no risk.  The seller may do whichever gives the most profit.

If however, the value must be refunded then the seller has all the risk, because no matter what, the seller must give to the buyer the value of the good.  If Bitcoin crashes then it is the sellers tough luck.  If Bitcoin rises then it is the sellers good luck.  There is no risk to the buyer. 

Sellers handling BTC bear the responsibility for keeping that BTC on hand in the event of such failures.

This is what is being argued.  You can't just state this in bold as if it is you argument.  (which I really think it is your argument)

and then try to delay matters and make off with all or part of that person's BTC payment.

I don't understand this.  Because, the value of Bitcoin increased during this transaction, the seller will make off with the profit anyway. 

On a side note: Conabul refunding $1600 for $1900, equivalent, is very rotten.  Very, very.

[Zeeks]

If you try to give him less than he gave you in return for absolutely nothing... you are a thief. That is what people will remember forever. Every time you post that is what people will bring up. Every time someone asks "Hey, how is Coinabul for buying metals?" that is what they will get as a response. Act accordingly.

[aric]

That's why smart retailers don't write checks their asses can't cash. They don't spend a customer's money until a safe time period has passed, as to ensure against loss

We both know that Coinabul made a bogus argument when it said it sold the BTC and hence couldn't return it, so I don't know why you are explaining this to me.  You have not explained why my method is not "kindly", you have only explained what a business should do if your refund method is used.  I don't care one bit how the business handles the money internally.

I mean no offense but I'm having a hard time following your points. You might be completely misrepresenting what I said and the situation at hand, but it's hard to decipher your conclusions. The risk is always with the Seller if he or she doesn't provide the product.

OK, I'll explain it this way.  You say the risk is with the seller, and you say the buyer should get the refund in the original amount of BTC.  So, if the bitcoin crashes and the seller (whoops) can't ship the product, then it can, without any foul, refund the original amount of Bitcoins.  But there is no risk to the seller.  This is a contradiction.  Hence one of your two premises are incorrect.  Because the seller normally has the choice of refunding or shipping the product, the seller has no risk.  The seller may do whichever gives the most profit.

If however, the value must be refunded then the seller has all the risk, because no matter what, the seller must give to the buyer the value of the good.  If Bitcoin crashes then it is the sellers tough luck.  If Bitcoin rises then it is the sellers good luck.  There is no risk to the buyer. 

Sellers handling BTC bear the responsibility for keeping that BTC on hand in the event of such failures.

This is what is being argued.  You can't just state this in bold as if it is you argument.  (which I really think it is your argument)

and then try to delay matters and make off with all or part of that person's BTC payment.

I don't understand this.  Because, the value of Bitcoin increased during this transaction, the seller will make off with the profit anyway. 

On a side note: Conabul refunding $1600 for $1900, equivalent, is very rotten.  Very, very.

He paid paid 90+ BTC yet the product never shipped. You still don't understand this.

Stop tying BTC to USD. You want to tie it to USD now? 90.78 BTC x ~47 USD = $4267

That's the buyer's money (not the seller's money) currently valued in USD. Coinabul is sitting on that. When they couldn't provide the product, they should've refunded his 90.78 BTC with lightning-fucking-speed. Coinabul spent, took, or squandered his bitcoins? That's their responsibility.

[SgtSpike]

That's why smart retailers don't write checks their asses can't cash. They don't spend a customer's money until a safe time period has passed, as to ensure against loss

We both know that Coinabul made a bogus argument when it said it sold the BTC and hence couldn't return it, so I don't know why you are explaining this to me.  You have not explained why my method is not "kindly", you have only explained what a business should do if your refund method is used.  I don't care one bit how the business handles the money internally.

I mean no offense but I'm having a hard time following your points. You might be completely misrepresenting what I said and the situation at hand, but it's hard to decipher your conclusions. The risk is always with the Seller if he or she doesn't provide the product.

OK, I'll explain it this way.  You say the risk is with the seller, and you say the buyer should get the refund in the original amount of BTC.  So, if the bitcoin crashes and the seller (whoops) can't ship the product, then it can, without any foul, refund the original amount of Bitcoins.  But there is no risk to the seller.  This is a contradiction.  Hence one of your two premises are incorrect.  Because the seller normally has the choice of refunding or shipping the product, the seller has no risk.  The seller may do whichever gives the most profit.

If however, the value must be refunded then the seller has all the risk, because no matter what, the seller must give to the buyer the value of the good.  If Bitcoin crashes then it is the sellers tough luck.  If Bitcoin rises then it is the sellers good luck.  There is no risk to the buyer. 

Sellers handling BTC bear the responsibility for keeping that BTC on hand in the event of such failures.

This is what is being argued.  You can't just state this in bold as if it is you argument.  (which I really think it is your argument)

and then try to delay matters and make off with all or part of that person's BTC payment.

I don't understand this.  Because, the value of Bitcoin increased during this transaction, the seller will make off with the profit anyway. 

On a side note: Conabul refunding $1600 for $1900, equivalent, is very rotten.  Very, very.

He paid paid 90+ BTC yet the product never shipped. You still don't understand this.

Stop tying BTC to USD. You want to tie it to USD now? 90.78 BTC x ~47 USD = $4267

That's the buyer's money (not the seller's money) currently valued in USD. Coinabul is sitting on that. When they couldn't provide the product, they should've refunded his 90.78 BTC with lightning-fucking-speed. Coinabul spent, took, or squandered his bitcoins? That's their responsibility.

I'm not sure I agree with that.  Coinabul's policy states that their refunds will be in USD equivalent, not BTC.

Now, if you want to argue the potential for gain on other investments in the timeframe that Coinabul held on to his money (i.e., interest), I think that is a fair argument to make.  But it would be up to a court of law to determine specific damages, and it most assuredly would not follow the BTC price.

[Raoul Duke]

So, SgtSpike, isn't it pure incompetence, or maybe even malice, to put a shop online without having the care to check which countries can or can't they ship the products to?


PS: I administer a webshop and no way a customer who inserts a Country we don't ship to in his shipping address will be able to finish the order process, much less get to the payment page, because it will tell him: "Sorry, we don't ship to your country"

[aric]

I'm not sure I agree with that.  Coinabul's policy states that their refunds will be in USD equivalent, not BTC.

Now, if you want to argue the potential for gain on other investments in the timeframe that Coinabul held on to his money (i.e., interest), I think that is a fair argument to make.  But it would be up to a court of law to determine specific damages, and it most assuredly would not follow the BTC price.

I'm shocked that some people don't see the theft transpiring. You speak of bitcoin as if it holds no value as a commodity and currency independent of USD. I never would've thought there'd even be a handful of people arguing on behalf of USD let alone a "court of law's" undoubtedly-twisted interpretation of bitcoin. According to those insinuations, then if the USD value of bitcoins dropped to $1, Coinabul would still owe them the spot price of gold?

No. They would owe them the 90.78 BTC still. If Coinabul's "terms" are to rip people off then those are crooked terms. Right. Let's start an international store, take bitcoins, give nothing, watch the bitcoin value go up, then decide to hold on to part of the coins. Nice 'operation' there.

[prezbo]

I'm not sure I agree with that.  Coinabul's policy states that their refunds will be in USD equivalent, not BTC.

Now, if you want to argue the potential for gain on other investments in the timeframe that Coinabul held on to his money (i.e., interest), I think that is a fair argument to make.  But it would be up to a court of law to determine specific damages, and it most assuredly would not follow the BTC price.

I'm shocked that some people don't see the theft transpiring. You speak of bitcoin as if it holds no value as a commodity and currency independent of USD. I never would've thought there'd even be a handful of people arguing on behalf of USD let alone a "court of law's" undoubtedly-twisted interpretation of bitcoin. According to those insinuations, then if the USD value of bitcoins dropped to $1, Coinabul would still owe them the spot price of gold?

No. They would owe them the 90.78 BTC still. If Coinabul's "terms" are to rip people off then those are crooked terms. Right. Let's start an international store, take bitcoins, give nothing, watch the bitcoin value go up, then decide to hold on to part of the coins. Nice 'operation' there.

It's in their TOS. It's buyers responsibility to read them. Nobody forced him to use coinabul if he didn't agree to their TOS. Is that so difficult to understand?

[SgtSpike]

So, SgtSpike, isn't it pure incompetence, or maybe even malice, to put a shop online without having the care to check which countries can or can't they ship the products to?

PS: I administer a webshop and no way a customer who inserts a Country we don't ship to in his shipping address will be able to finish the order process, much less get to the payment page, because it will tell him: "Sorry, we don't ship to your country"

It is incompetence, I agree.  The customer is most certainly entitled to a full refund.

I'm not sure I agree with that.  Coinabul's policy states that their refunds will be in USD equivalent, not BTC.

Now, if you want to argue the potential for gain on other investments in the timeframe that Coinabul held on to his money (i.e., interest), I think that is a fair argument to make.  But it would be up to a court of law to determine specific damages, and it most assuredly would not follow the BTC price.

I'm shocked that some people don't see the theft transpiring. You speak of bitcoin as if it holds no value as a commodity and currency independent of USD. I never would've thought there'd even be a handful of people arguing on behalf of USD let alone a "court of law's" undoubtedly-twisted interpretation of bitcoin. According to those insinuations, then if the USD value of bitcoins dropped to $1, Coinabul would still owe them the spot price of gold?

No. They would owe them the 90.78 BTC still. If Coinabul's "terms" are to rip people off then those are crooked terms. Right. Let's start an international store, take bitcoins, give nothing, watch the bitcoin value go up, then decide to hold on to part of the coins. Nice 'operation' there.

The terms may be crooked in your mind, but they are not illegal (that I am aware of), and everyone is free to read them BEFORE ordering.  And of course Coinabul would still owe them a full refund in USD equivalent if BTC dropped to $1.  The BTC price after the time of purchase is completely irrelevant - again, because of the terms that Coinabul lists.

I'm sorry you think this is crooked, but it is how the world works.  We even saw how some of Tom's bASIC customers were refunded different amounts of Euro based on differing exchange rates from when they ordered to when they were refunded, because the purchases were denominated in USD.  I believe Coinabul's policy is enough to hold them harmless for any currency valuation fluctuations in anything other than USD.  If any of those awaiting a refund believe differently, there is always a courtroom they can test their case in.

[bravenec]

It's in their TOS. It's buyers responsibility to read them. Nobody forced him to use coinabul if he didn't agree to their TOS. Is that so difficult to understand?

Look carefully to their TOS:

You are responsible for assuring that any product you order can be lawfully imported to your destination country. When ordering from Coinabul.com, the recipient(purchaser) is the legal importer of record and must comply with all laws and regulations of your destination country.

There are no such restriction. I know this condition because it is not first time I bought something in US. I have been many times noted by the seller: "Be carefull, we are not responsible for your local tax or restrictions."

Look to this:

Fedex's terms at http://www.fedex.com/us/international/irc/profiles/irc_cz_profile.html say, "An export license is also required when exporting toxic commodities, steel and steel products, precious metals, raw wood and wood products." Coinabul is the exporter, right?

I can read their TOS three times, I can memorized it, but there is not written "We are not licensed to send gold to Czech Republic".

[SgtSpike]

It's in their TOS. It's buyers responsibility to read them. Nobody forced him to use coinabul if he didn't agree to their TOS. Is that so difficult to understand?

Look carefully to their TOS:

You are responsible for assuring that any product you order can be lawfully imported to your destination country. When ordering from Coinabul.com, the recipient(purchaser) is the legal importer of record and must comply with all laws and regulations of your destination country.

There are no such restriction. I know this condition because it is not first time I bought something in US. I have been many times noted by the seller: "Be carefull, we are not responsible for your local tax or restrictions."

Look to this:

Fedex's terms at http://www.fedex.com/us/international/irc/profiles/irc_cz_profile.html say, "An export license is also required when exporting toxic commodities, steel and steel products, precious metals, raw wood and wood products." Coinabul is the exporter, right?

I can read their TOS three times, I can memorized it, but there is not written "We are not licensed to send gold to Czech Republic".

Did you read what Coinabul said?

No matter what the origin country, precious metals are unable to be imported into his nation(see http://countries.bridgat.com/Czech_Republic_Import_Restrictions.html http://www.fedex.com/us/international/irc/profiles/irc_cz_profile.html http://pe.usps.com/text/imm/ce_019.htm).

Are you saying that what Fedex has posted on their website is a lie?

Prohibitions

In addition to items prohibited by Dangerous and Prohibited Goods & Packaging Post Guide and ECI International Courier Regulations, Czech Republic prohibits:
 

    Alcohol
    Chain letters
    Lottery tickets
    Precious metals
    Reproductions of bank notes or designs resembling them
    Saccharine.

[prezbo]

It's in their TOS. It's buyers responsibility to read them. Nobody forced him to use coinabul if he didn't agree to their TOS. Is that so difficult to understand?

Look carefully to their TOS:

You are responsible for assuring that any product you order can be lawfully imported to your destination country. When ordering from Coinabul.com, the recipient(purchaser) is the legal importer of record and must comply with all laws and regulations of your destination country.

There are no such restriction. I know this condition because it is not first time I bought something in US. I have been many times noted by the seller: "Be carefull, we are not responsible for your local tax or restrictions."

Look to this:

Fedex's terms at http://www.fedex.com/us/international/irc/profiles/irc_cz_profile.html say, "An export license is also required when exporting toxic commodities, steel and steel products, precious metals, raw wood and wood products." Coinabul is the exporter, right?

I can read their TOS three times, I can memorized it, but there is not written "We are not licensed to send gold to Czech Republic".

I was replying specifically on the value refund should be based on. If they refund you usd value (with shipping included, ofc), you can order the same item from bitcoincommodities, and you won't be any/much worse off.

[JoelKatz]

The terms may be crooked in your mind, but they are not illegal (that I am aware of), and everyone is free to read them BEFORE ordering.  And of course Coinabul would still owe them a full refund in USD equivalent if BTC dropped to $1.  The BTC price after the time of purchase is completely irrelevant - again, because of the terms that Coinabul lists.

So your argument is essentially that so long as Coinabul's terms were knowable to the customer prior to the order being placed and the customer placed the order nonetheless, Coinabul cannot be scamming if they follow their own terms.

Coinabul's TOS says "If Coinabul is held liable to you for a transaction, liability will be limited to either the amount which you paid during the transaction or $100; whichever is greater."

So if I place an order for $1,000 worth of gold, Coinabul opts not to send me the gold for no reason, I sue them, get a $1,000 judgment and they pay me $100, that wouldn't be Coinabul scamming?

It is, unfortunately, fairly routine for companies to have terms of service that say "We can do whatever we want and your only recourse is to ask us nicely to do something else". While companies think this provides them with all kinds of legal protection, what it actually does is cause people to have no choice but to ignore the terms when determining if the company acted responsibly or not. Coinabul's terms are these kinds of terms -- many of them contain "we can do whatever we want and you have to take it " clauses, such as this beauty: "Coinabul is not liable for any errors, negligence, or inability to fulfill any orders."

I'm not saying Coinabul shouldn't have this kind of ToS. While I think it's idiotic, I understand that lots of companies do this, often as a result of specific legal advice. And I'm not a lawyer. But it forces people to basically ignore the Tos when deciding whether to buy from the company or evaluating whether the company acted reasonably.

The reason nobody bothers to read a ToS is because they all say the same thing -- we can do whatever we want.

And here's where it hurts you -- this would be a reasonable term of service. So if Coinabul could argue that its ToS was reasonable and that customers agreed that they were treated fairly so long as Coinabul complied with its ToS, I'd agree 100%. However, because Coinabul's ToS is of the "we can do whatever we want" type, "we complied with our ToS" can't provide a defense against an accusation of scamming. So "make your ToS make you liable for nothing" may be good legal advice, but it fails in the court of public opinion because it prevents you from being able to point to your ToS to justify your conduct. An unreasonable agreement can't justify anything.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

...it's nearly impossible to verify on our end which countries across the globe have a specific ban on the import of precious metals, hence the special International Orders page linked to from the footer on every page within our site.

http://pe.usps.com/text/imm/immctry.htm

http://pe.usps.com/text/imm/ce_019.htm#ep6618307

Coins; paper money; securities and other paper values of any kind; as well as savings-bank booklets; and unmanufactured gold, silver, and platinum may be imported only by authorization of the State Bank.

I have more to say on this, but first I need to take a shit (really!).

[shad0wbitz]

So your argument is essentially that so long as Coinabul's terms were knowable to the customer prior to the order being placed and the customer placed the order nonetheless, Coinabul cannot be scamming if they follow their own terms.

Coinabul's TOS says "If Coinabul is held liable to you for a transaction, liability will be limited to either the amount which you paid during the transaction or $100; whichever is greater."

So if I place an order for $1,000 worth of gold, Coinabul opts not to send me the gold for no reason, I sue them, get a $1,000 judgment and they pay me $100, that wouldn't be Coinabul scamming?

It is, unfortunately, fairly routine for companies to have terms of service that say "We can do whatever we want and your only recourse is to ask us nicely to do something else". While companies think this provides them with all kinds of legal protection, what it actually does is cause people to have no choice but to ignore the terms when determining if the company acted responsibly or not. Coinabul's terms are these kinds of terms -- many of them contain "we can do whatever we want and you have to take it " clauses, such as this beauty: "Coinabul is not liable for any errors, negligence, or inability to fulfill any orders."

I'm not saying Coinabul shouldn't have this kind of ToS. While I think it's idiotic, I understand that lots of companies do this, often as a result of specific legal advice. And I'm not a lawyer. But it forces people to basically ignore the Tos when deciding whether to buy from the company or evaluating whether the company acted reasonably.

The reason nobody bothers to read a ToS is because they all say the same thing -- we can do whatever we want.

Coinabul is unethical at best, and scammy at worst. Besides the fact that they have continuously sucked at their shipping times, the customer paid in BTC. The refund SHOULD be in BTC. PERIOD! Nobody cares if Coinabul has to buy back and loose money, that is not the customer's fault.

Also note that the customer was mislead and miss informed. He was told that the product was going to be shipped on the next Fedex batch, and after weeks and weeks, if the customer hadn't contacted back Coinabul to see what the fuck was up, NOTHING would have been done.

Very unethical, and poorly managed. This coupled with their shipping times makes me wonder who in the world would want to buy anything for them.

When you buy stuff with Credit/Debit cards, you CANNOT charge the card until you SHIP. It is against the law to do so, and against the regulations from MC/Visa.

This should be the same: unable to ship (for WHATEVER reason), immediate refund issued (IN THE CURRENCY THE TRANSACTION WAS PAID FOR!)

[aric]

Coinabul's Terms of Service

Conditions of Use      By using the Coinabul website or any other service provided by Coinabul, you implicitly agree to the following Conditions of Use.    These terms apply to all orders, purchases, and sales made through www.Coinabul.com, by telephone, or by any other means. We urge you to read and understand these Conditions of Use, as well as all policies and procedures before using any Coinabul service. It will be necessary for you to acknowledge reading, understanding, and accepting all terms of these Conditions of Use before placing any orders with, or selling to Coinabul. Payment for any item must be sent within 1 hour after purchase to ensure that your product is reserved at your spot price. We reserve the right to change this User Agreement at any time. Any changes will be posted on the Coinabul website and all changes will take effect 30 days after their posting. This User Agreement cannot be changed in any other fashion except by mutual, written agreement between Coinabul and you. This User Agreement sets forth the entire agreement between Coinabul and you in regards to the material contained within it. If you have any questions regarding this agreement, or any rights or obligations described within it, please contact Coinabul. If an order cannot be filled by Coinabul we will either: provide a substitute product of your choice of equivalent value, or provide a refund, minus any market loss incurred and at our discretion. Privacy Policy  Coinabul respects your privacy.  We will never willfully sell, rent or share any individual customer information with anyone. The only information we maintain is the information you provide us with to complete your Coinabul order.  Coinabul uses the highest industry safety standards when storing information or completing a sale, including the highest industry standard secure server (SSL) used to transfer payment over the internet safely and securely. Coinabul employees are only granted access to your information to complete a transaction, and all strictly comply with our security policies. While Coinabul will not sell, rent or share customer information with anyone, we may share general, non-individual information, such as registration statistics with trusted third parties. We may occasionally send you emails containing special offers or information about new services and products. If you no longer wish to receive these emails, simply click UNSUBSCRIBE or send an email message to remove@Coinabul.com with "remove" in the subject line and your address will be deleted from our active mailing list.      Disclaimer     By using Coinabul's services, including this website, you agree to be bound by this Disclaimer.  Please make sure you read and understand the policies set forth in this section. You also implicitly state that you have sufficient knowledge and experience on which to base your decisions regarding the buying and selling of precious metals, and that Coinabul makes no recommendations about those sales or purchases. You acknowledge understanding of the risks inherent in such transactions, including fluctuations in market price, and that those risks are beyond the control of Coinabul. By using our services, you acknowledge that certain market conditions or other disruptions, such as technological difficulties, may result in you being unable to buy or sell products on a timetable or at a price that is acceptable to you. If you fail to abide by the terms described within the Conditions of Use, we reserve the right to suspend or terminate your account at any time. You agree not to hold Coinabul liable or responsible for any orders placed via its online order system, disruptions, or termination of that system, or for any losses, or damages you may incur as a result of using the order entry system.  Coinabul is not liable for any errors, negligence, or inability to fulfill any orders. Nor can Coinabul be held responsible for delays in transmission, delivery, or fulfillment of orders due to the failure of associated facilities or to any other causes beyond its control.  By using any Coinabul service, you agree that you understand the order entry system is mechanical and may fail due to conditions beyond our control.  Cookies are data files which store information concerning the websites you have visited. Data contained in those files is data you yourself have entered, such as user IDs and passwords. Cookies cannot search out data on your hard drives or data files created by other websites.  No payment information is stored within the cookies used by Coinabul. Coinabul uses tracking cookies to enable you to easily retrieve fresh quotes or place additional orders without having to re-enter your name and shipping data. If your browser is currently blocking cookies, you may have trouble logging in or the system may not be able to find your username or password.  Please enable cookies, and temporarily unblock JavaScript in your browser's settings for the smoothest possible experience on www.Coinabul.com.       User Agreement     By making purchases, selling, or placing orders with Coinabul, you are agreeing to abide by our Conditions of Use. All investment includes an element of risk. The value of bullion coin is constantly affected by a variety of factors including market price, the perceived value of such coins in relation to their availability, as well as other innumerable factors. Because of the natural fluctuations in price, investing in bullion and coins may not be suitable for everyone. It is in your best interest to learn as much as you can, fully understand the market, and ensure you have sufficient financial reserves before considering any investment. All policies are subject to change at any time and all such changes will be effective immediately upon posting to the Coinabul website.  Indemnification  By using Coinabul’s services, you agree that neither the company, nor its affiliates, officers, directors or shareholders can be held liable for any costs, damages, expenses, liabilities or obligations you incur as a result of your breach of agreement with Coinabul, or your failure to adhere to the Conditions of Use. Limitation of Liability  By using our services, you agree that Coinabul cannot be held liable for any consequential, exemplary, or indirect losses or damages you may incur from a transaction with us.  If Coinabul is held liable to you for a transaction, liability will be limited to either the amount which you paid during the transaction or $100; whichever is greater.   Termination  Either you or Coinabul may terminate this User Agreement at any time with written notice to the other party. Termination will not affect the rules and rights available to you or Coinabul in regard to use and transactions which occurred before the termination.  Rights and Remedies Coinabul reserves the right to exercise any and all rights available to us by law in the event of your failure to comply with any obligations you owe us.  This includes, but is not limited to, using any of your funds being held by Coinabul to satisfy your financial obligations to us.  We may also offset any financial obligation we owe to you, against your outstanding obligations.  We reserve the right to turn your account over to a collections agency or lawyer for collection if necessary.  In that event, you are responsible for paying all costs associated with the collection, including, but not limited to attorneys fees and court costs.   No delay or failure to act on our part can be construed as a waiver of any right or remedy. Also, no action upon any right or remedy will limit further exercise of that right or remedy.  By using any Coinabul service you agree to allow us to charge the credit card you have provided for any market losses incurred by Coinabul as a result of your failure to fulfill any obligation.       Absence of Relationship     Upon using any Coinabul service, the only relationship created is that of a buyer and a seller. No other legal relationship exists or is implied.  Our written consent is required before you may transfer or assign these Conditions of Use, any rights it grants you, or any obligations to another party. This User Agreement will be considered binding on any allowed transfer or assignment and any successors of Coinabul.  Dispute Resolution  It is our goal that all disputes can be resolved in a timely fashion. To that end, use of any Coinabul service requires that you agree to dispute resolution as outlined below: 1.Forum Selection: The State courts of Wyoming shall have jurisdiction in any disputes. Disputes must be resolved within those courts. By using any Coinabul service, you agree to waive any objection to the jurisdiction of those courts. 2.Governing Law: This User Agreement shall be governed and interpreted in agreement with the laws of Wyoming. 3.Waiver of Jury Trial: Arbitration: BOTH COINABUL AND YOU WAIVE YOUR RIGHT TO TRAIL BY JURY AND ARBITRATION IN THE EVENT OF ANY DISPUTE.  Liability  Failure to perform or delay in the performance of any of our obligations due to events that are beyond our control is excusable, and Coinabul cannot be held responsible or liable for any losses or damages incurred because of such events.  Further Assurances  By using any Coinabul service, you agree to complete and provide any other reasonable documentation or actions which may be required.  Notices  All communications with us must be through an authorized agent of Coinabul in the state of Wyoming. All communications to you will be sent to the mailing address, or e-mail address you provided upon registration.     Absence of Waivers Any failure or decision not to take action in response to any of your failures to comply with these Conditions of Use does not affect the ability of Coinabul to act upon any other such failure.     Severability    If any term of the User Agreement is found to be unenforceable under the applicable laws, it does not affect the enforceability of any other term. If you have any questions regarding Coinabul, contact us: via email at contact@Coinabul.com, or by phone at 1-321-222-7748, or by mail at 2710 Thomes Ave, Cheyenne WY, 82001.

I read Coinabul's Blob of Service. Here are the two applicable points:

If an order cannot be filled by Coinabul we will either: provide a substitute product of your choice of equivalent value, or provide a refund, minus any market loss incurred and at our discretion.

There's been no substitute. Refunding minus "market losses" is ambiguous at best. The buyer can't expect "market losses" to apply if there is no product being delivered to begin with.

If Coinabul is held liable to you for a transaction, liability will be limited to either the amount which you paid during the transaction or $100; whichever is greater.

US court or no US court, if one obviously considers Coinabul liable for this transaction, this means that Coinabul owes him the amount of BTC he paid: 90.78 BTC. NOTE TO BITCOIN MIDDLEMEN: Do not spend a customer's money before it's actually your money. It isn't your money until a sale is completed. As far as gold, one must either stock gold as inventory and create an obvious buffer to protect a customer's funds or one must get out of this crooked game. Anything else is disreputable by any measure.

[shad0wbitz]

Do not spend a customer's money before it's actually your money. It isn't your money until a sale is completed. As far as gold, one must either stock gold as inventory and create an obvious buffer to protect a customer's funds or one must get out of this crooked game. Anything else is disreputable by any measure.

THIS! Exactly my point. The common retail/commerce practice in the US (AND the law) says that you don't charge until you ship. PERIOD.

COINASCAM needs to return the full amount.

[Raoul Duke]

It's in their TOS. It's buyers responsibility to read them. Nobody forced him to use coinabul if he didn't agree to their TOS. Is that so difficult to understand?

Look carefully to their TOS:

You are responsible for assuring that any product you order can be lawfully imported to your destination country. When ordering from Coinabul.com, the recipient(purchaser) is the legal importer of record and must comply with all laws and regulations of your destination country.

There are no such restriction. I know this condition because it is not first time I bought something in US. I have been many times noted by the seller: "Be carefull, we are not responsible for your local tax or restrictions."

Look to this:

Fedex's terms at http://www.fedex.com/us/international/irc/profiles/irc_cz_profile.html say, "An export license is also required when exporting toxic commodities, steel and steel products, precious metals, raw wood and wood products." Coinabul is the exporter, right?

I can read their TOS three times, I can memorized it, but there is not written "We are not licensed to send gold to Czech Republic".

Did you read what Coinabul said?

No matter what the origin country, precious metals are unable to be imported into his nation(see http://countries.bridgat.com/Czech_Republic_Import_Restrictions.html http://www.fedex.com/us/international/irc/profiles/irc_cz_profile.html http://pe.usps.com/text/imm/ce_019.htm).

Are you saying that what Fedex has posted on their website is a lie?

Prohibitions

In addition to items prohibited by Dangerous and Prohibited Goods & Packaging Post Guide and ECI International Courier Regulations, Czech Republic prohibits:
 

    Alcohol
    Chain letters
    Lottery tickets
    Precious metals
    Reproductions of bank notes or designs resembling them
    Saccharine.

Look at my reply on page 2 of this same thread:

Does anybody know why they can't ship to the Czech Republic? They are in the European Union and if Coinabul can ship to Germany, Italy, or Spain then they can also ship to the Czech Republic. It's a common market. What am I missing?

http://goldsilver.com/international/ <--- They are in the US and ship to the Czech Republic
http://silvergoldbull.com/shipping  <--- They are in Canada and also ship to the Czech Republic

What's Coinabuls' excuse? That it's forbidden? I'm LMAO even if it's not funny...

So, how are those guys doing it?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

So, SgtSpike, isn't it pure incompetence, or maybe even malice, to put a shop online without having the care to check which countries can or can't they ship the products to?


PS: I administer a webshop and no way a customer who inserts a Country we don't ship to in his shipping address will be able to finish the order process, much less get to the payment page, because it will tell him: "Sorry, we don't ship to your country"

Just finished my shit, and the above in yellow is similar to what I wanted to pen but see that psy beat me to the punch--again!

On day-mother-fuckin'-one I would have researched and listed only countries I knew for sure that I could ship gold to provided I have a license to do such. If this nearly impossible task took me more than a day, than I better reconsider starting the endeavor in the first place (tense eff'ed up, but you get the gist).

[bravenec]

No matter what the origin country, precious metals are unable to be imported into his nation(see http://countries.bridgat.com/Czech_Republic_Import_Restrictions.html http://www.fedex.com/us/international/irc/profiles/irc_cz_profile.html http://pe.usps.com/text/imm/ce_019.htm).

Are you saying that what Fedex has posted on their website is a lie?
[/quote]

Fedex is not lying. Fedex is mistaken.

There is "zákon 235/2004 Sb. § 92" which defines investment gold and frees the investment gold from value added tax when sold in Czech republic, from EU to Czech republic and when iimporting from other states. There are no restrictions.
Such conditions should be equal in whole European Union, as far as I know.

[JoelKatz]

Fedex is not lying. Fedex is mistaken.

I don't think FedEx is really either lying or mistaken, they're just providing a summary. Essentially, they're just warning you that you need to check the actual regulations before you export precious metals to the Czech Republic.

"An export license is also required when exporting toxic commodities, steel and steel products, precious metals, raw wood and wood products."

http://www.fedex.com/us/international/irc/profiles/irc_cz_profile.html

[SgtSpike]

No matter what the origin country, precious metals are unable to be imported into his nation(see http://countries.bridgat.com/Czech_Republic_Import_Restrictions.html http://www.fedex.com/us/international/irc/profiles/irc_cz_profile.html http://pe.usps.com/text/imm/ce_019.htm).

Are you saying that what Fedex has posted on their website is a lie?

Fedex is not lying. Fedex is mistaken.

There is "zákon 235/2004 Sb. § 92" which defines investment gold and frees the investment gold from value added tax when sold in Czech republic, from EU to Czech republic and when iimporting from other states. There are no restrictions.
Such conditions should be equal in whole European Union, as far as I know.
[/quote]
Cool.  Then Coinabul should ship you the golds.

[SgtSpike]

The terms may be crooked in your mind, but they are not illegal (that I am aware of), and everyone is free to read them BEFORE ordering.  And of course Coinabul would still owe them a full refund in USD equivalent if BTC dropped to $1.  The BTC price after the time of purchase is completely irrelevant - again, because of the terms that Coinabul lists.

So your argument is essentially that so long as Coinabul's terms were knowable to the customer prior to the order being placed and the customer placed the order nonetheless, Coinabul cannot be scamming if they follow their own terms.

Coinabul's TOS says "If Coinabul is held liable to you for a transaction, liability will be limited to either the amount which you paid during the transaction or $100; whichever is greater."

So if I place an order for $1,000 worth of gold, Coinabul opts not to send me the gold for no reason, I sue them, get a $1,000 judgment and they pay me $100, that wouldn't be Coinabul scamming?

It is, unfortunately, fairly routine for companies to have terms of service that say "We can do whatever we want and your only recourse is to ask us nicely to do something else". While companies think this provides them with all kinds of legal protection, what it actually does is cause people to have no choice but to ignore the terms when determining if the company acted responsibly or not. Coinabul's terms are these kinds of terms -- many of them contain "we can do whatever we want and you have to take it " clauses, such as this beauty: "Coinabul is not liable for any errors, negligence, or inability to fulfill any orders."

I'm not saying Coinabul shouldn't have this kind of ToS. While I think it's idiotic, I understand that lots of companies do this, often as a result of specific legal advice. And I'm not a lawyer. But it forces people to basically ignore the Tos when deciding whether to buy from the company or evaluating whether the company acted reasonably.

The reason nobody bothers to read a ToS is because they all say the same thing -- we can do whatever we want.

And here's where it hurts you -- this would be a reasonable term of service. So if Coinabul could argue that its ToS was reasonable and that customers agreed that they were treated fairly so long as Coinabul complied with its ToS, I'd agree 100%. However, because Coinabul's ToS is of the "we can do whatever we want" type, "we complied with our ToS" can't provide a defense against an accusation of scamming. So "make your ToS make you liable for nothing" may be good legal advice, but it fails in the court of public opinion because it prevents you from being able to point to your ToS to justify your conduct. An unreasonable agreement can't justify anything.

Like I said, their terms are not illegal (that I know of).  I know there are limits on ToS, and I'm not really familiar with laws surrounding this, but the fact that credit card refunds can differ based on currency exchange rates is really all the proof that I need to see that it is a normal practice for a business to have a single currency of denomination, and that a business is generally free to choose what currency to denominate in.

I could certainly be wrong too.

And I'm not saying this is the best thing for Coinabul either, nor am I trying to defend their business practice or terms of service.  I am strictly pointing out the legality of it, and that they would not fit the legal definition of a scam as far as I am aware, provided they actually do refund the customer in USD equivalent.

From an ethical and business reputation standpoint, I think the right thing to do would be to refund the entire BTC balance (if they never sold the BTC) or refund the USD equivalent, shipping including, of the BTC at the time that the order was made (if they did sell the BTC).  Just my opinion, but I would find either of these to be an acceptable resolution, and I believe OP would as well.

[Herodes]

From an ethical and business reputation standpoint, I think the right thing to do would be to refund the entire BTC balance (if they never sold the BTC) or refund the USD equivalent, shipping including, of the BTC at the time that the order was made (if they did sell the BTC).  Just my opinion, but I would find either of these to be an acceptable resolution, and I believe OP would as well.

If a customer makes an order, and it can't be shipped for whatever reason, then you contact the customer immediately and come to an agreement, then public shitstorms like these will be avoided.

[bravenec]

From an ethical and business reputation standpoint, I think the right thing to do would be to refund the entire BTC balance (if they never sold the BTC) or refund the USD equivalent, shipping including, of the BTC at the time that the order was made (if they did sell the BTC).  Just my opinion, but I would find either of these to be an acceptable resolution, and I believe OP would as well.

If a customer makes an order, and it can't be shipped for whatever reason, then you contact the customer immediately and come to an agreement, then public shitstorms like these will be avoided.

Exactly. I made the order Feb 6. No confirmation was sent to me, until I asked for it at Feb 13. No mail was sent to me until Feb 27 when I asked for information again and it was told to me that the Krugerrand cannot be sent to me. Three weeks from order! "We will see, what we can do" was replied to me. After next urgencies at Mar 5 I was asked for other week of time. At the moment I believed that I lost all my money and my patience was over. No mercy to scammer. A day later it was offered me $1600 and I have to wait another 5 days for answer. Then I write to this forum.

[Herodes]

From an ethical and business reputation standpoint, I think the right thing to do would be to refund the entire BTC balance (if they never sold the BTC) or refund the USD equivalent, shipping including, of the BTC at the time that the order was made (if they did sell the BTC).  Just my opinion, but I would find either of these to be an acceptable resolution, and I believe OP would as well.

If a customer makes an order, and it can't be shipped for whatever reason, then you contact the customer immediately and come to an agreement, then public shitstorms like these will be avoided.

Exactly. I made the order Feb 6. No confirmation was sent to me, until I asked for it at Feb 13. No mail was sent to me until Feb 27 when I asked for information again and it was told to me that the Krugerrand cannot be sent to me. Three weeks from order! "We will see, what we can do" was replied to me. After next urgencies at Mar 5 I was asked for other week of time. At the moment I believed that I lost all my money and my patience was over. No mercy to scammer. A day later it was offered me $1600 and I have to wait another 5 days for answer. Then I write to this forum.

As long as your side of the story is correct, then this behaviour is unacceptable. The best thing may maybe not to do anybusiness with Coinabul whatsoever. I've seen them coming on this forum with lengthy explanations too, that really doesn't hold water.

[SgtSpike]

From an ethical and business reputation standpoint, I think the right thing to do would be to refund the entire BTC balance (if they never sold the BTC) or refund the USD equivalent, shipping including, of the BTC at the time that the order was made (if they did sell the BTC).  Just my opinion, but I would find either of these to be an acceptable resolution, and I believe OP would as well.

If a customer makes an order, and it can't be shipped for whatever reason, then you contact the customer immediately and come to an agreement, then public shitstorms like these will be avoided.

Yeah, I agree.  If I was Coinabul, I'd be going above and beyond to correct this to hopefully salvage some remaining shreds of reputation.

[Raoul Duke]

From an ethical and business reputation standpoint, I think the right thing to do would be to refund the entire BTC balance (if they never sold the BTC) or refund the USD equivalent, shipping including, of the BTC at the time that the order was made (if they did sell the BTC).  Just my opinion, but I would find either of these to be an acceptable resolution, and I believe OP would as well.

If a customer makes an order, and it can't be shipped for whatever reason, then you contact the customer immediately and come to an agreement, then public shitstorms like these will be avoided.

Yeah, I agree.  If I was Coinabul, I'd be going above and beyond to correct this to hopefully salvage some remaining shreds of reputation.

Did they ever had a reputation to shred?
Has anyone here saw the video that other scammer, JRO, posted when he had a quarrel with Jon from Coinabul?

[VeeMiner]

I think this is a simple case. Coinabul should either return the BTC or ship the coin. End of story. If they don't, they are not a trustworthy company.

[slush]

There is "zákon 235/2004 Sb. § 92" which defines investment gold and frees the investment gold from value added tax when sold in Czech republic, from EU to Czech republic and when iimporting from other states. There are no restrictions.
Such conditions should be equal in whole European Union, as far as I know.

Actually that's not absolutely correct. Gold is free from VAT in Czech, but for that reason there're many additional restrictions in trading and only registered companies are allowed to trade gold. I think this is the core of a problem, because I think this is a Czech speciality and these laws doesn't apply to whole EU. And Coinabul expected that we here in Bananastan have reasonable laws, which was huge mistake.

[rpietila]

And Coinabul expected that we here in Bananastan have reasonable laws, which was huge mistake.

+1

As for reasonable laws, don't try your luck by entering Russia with an encrypted HD..

[Coinabul]

Hi all,

I've been emailing Petr on an almost daily for nearly 3 weeks now trying to work with him to find the best way to refund his purchase and shipping(USD or BTC) that would be most ideal. Unfortunately, this line of communication was sidelined; he has thusly missed a few opportunities to get BTC cheaply so I've generated a MTGOX-USD coupon which has been sent to him. This includes $1603 for the coin itself, $105 for the shipping which was never used, and $50 as a gift to help him get an ounce of gold in a way which will be viable given the import restrictions he's forced to deal with.

As far as the local laws for the Czech Republic:
"gold, silver, and platinum may be imported only by authorization of the State Bank."
"Import licenses and quantity restrictions are applicable for many articles sent to the Czech Republic. Therefore, senders should ascertain from the addressee before mailing whether the contents are permitted and whether the necessary documents are held."

That said, we could possibly have attempted to send his coin(depending on our legal team's viewpoint) but it would have never made it to his hands and insurance companies of any type have coverage exceptions for government seizures so realistically this is not an option - as is the case with ANY bullion dealer not located in the Czech Republic and licensed by the State Bank.

The Czech Republic has been removed from our site some time ago to prevent this issue in the future. As always, we ask that if you are ordering from outside the USA you check your local import restrictions to ensure that we can get your desired products to you safely. While many countries have readily available import / export information, some nations are difficult for us as outsiders to investigate due to language barriers and continually changing laws. If you do have import restriction information for us as a resident of another nation which will help us make your Bitcoin to metal experience smoother, we welcome your emails via contact[-at-]coinabul.com

Thanks for helping us iron out the kinks in global Bitcoin trade,
Jay

[Zeeks]

Just send him back exactly what he sent you. What is difficult about this? The longer you wait the worse you look...

[speeder]

Even if he send back exactly in USD, this would still be around 1900 not 1600...

Coinabul is seemly asking for a scammer tag

[bravenec]

I had a deal with Coinabul. I have not free time just now to write some explanation, I will write it later. My apology for Coinabul.

[rpietila]

I had a deal with Coinabul. I have not free time just now to write some explanation, I will write it later. My apology for Coinabul.

  ! CONGRATULATIONS !

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Since I saw this issue pop up after having no order volume to the Czech Republic until a couple of weeks ago, the Czech Republic has been disabled entirely in our system. We remove any countries that are glaringly obvious, but with 244 countries and countless territories in service, as well as language barriers for many of them which makes research very difficult, it's nearly impossible to verify on our end which countries across the globe have a specific ban on the import of precious metals, hence the special International Orders page linked to from the footer on every page within our site.

The Czech Republic has been removed from our site some time ago to prevent this issue in the future.

Although technically correct, the latter implies a much longer time frame. Reminds me of the follow:

[Herodes]

The Czech Republic has been removed from our site some time ago to prevent this issue in the future.

Please don't remove the country in it's entirety, leave a little bit left, so I can go there on vacation sometime.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

The Czech Republic has been removed from our site some time ago to prevent this issue in the future.

Please don't remove the country in it's entirety, leave a little bit left, so I can go there on vacation sometime.

Let's go fishing there, Herodes. Looks like the bass are ready to spawn.

[repentance]

Did they ever had a reputation to shred?
Has anyone here saw the video that other scammer, JRO, posted when he had a quarrel with Jon from Coinabul?

Some of Bitcoin's funniest moments have come from shonky operators arguing with each other.

[Herodes]

The Czech Republic has been removed from our site some time ago to prevent this issue in the future.

Please don't remove the country in it's entirety, leave a little bit left, so I can go there on vacation sometime.

Let's go fishing there, Herodes. Looks like the bass are ready to spawn.

That looked quite nice!

[anzy]

also, there's too many of us around already.

 

I like your site, will give it a go : )

[VeeMiner]

so whats the latest news?

[dscotese]

so whats the latest news?

I think bravenec is going to tell us a story.  I'm sitting Indian style, but getting leg cramps...

[bravenec]

My feelings

When I ordered gold in the US for my bitcoins, I felt some mental discomfort. Defense against any unfair conduct accross the ocean, in a foreign language, in a foreign environment and in different time zone can be very difficult. I wanted to spend my bitcoins for gold when the bitcoin first time exceeded $ 30 per bitcoin. I had no time, bitcoin fall very quickly.

So I ordered my Krugerrand as planned from Coinabul now. Coinabul was recommended me by my previous supplier. That's why I was not looking for anyone in Europe.

Communication with Coinabul proved to be very slow. Any information I received only when I requested it and the answer sometimes took several days. After three weeks it was said me that the Krugerrand will not be send to me. I did not understand Coinabul's reasons and reply to my request to return bitcoins was very confusing. At that moment I began to believe that I become a victim of fraud which further strengthened the refund offer far below the amount sent to the US and five day delay in response to my last mail.

The situation was calmed down by a guy here in Czech Republic which called to Coinabul and to me and explained whole situation. Thank you.

Why Coinabul did not send the Krugerrand

The financial system of the world is sick. Fiat money rules the world and any attempt to change the monopoly on the production of the commodity called "money" is percived as dangerous and suspicious. Bitcoin and gold are precisely those commodities that played the money's role whole ages, or aspire to this role. Any manipulation with them thus attracts the attention of the rulers of the current system and automaticly raises suspicion. Therefore, once the Coinabul had some doubt that everything is legal, they stopped whole action and refused to send me the gold. It is evident in all their mails that they want to have everything in order and the effort could be funny from the outsider point of view. But keep in mind that Coinabul is located in a state which showed how easy could be to destroy their job:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

Why the bitcoins was not returned to me

The reason is simple - the did not returned bitcoins because they may not. As I said, current financial system of the world is sick. The only bearer of value are money. It does not matter how the two parties agree - once the relationship is affected by state (courts, financila office, etc.) all the value has to be quoted in money. Someone crashes your car - the court will assign you money compensation, rather than a new car. If someone kill your apple tree, the court will assign you a money, not a bag of apples each of the next twenty years. Coinabul has in terms that they refunds in US dollars. In the doubt, everything is counted in money by the state. Common sense - I put bitcoin, I get bitcoin - is completely unnecessary. This procedure, of course, may damage any part of the trade. And because the rules are determined by the seller, it is the seller which is the stronger part. If the rule "I put bitcoin, I get bitcoin" was valid, the Coinabul's terms would be completely different and the Coinabul would hedge against bitcoin market moves. The hedging is simple - keep  bitcoins until the trade is settled.

Recommended reading:

Murray N. Rothbard: What Has Government Done to Our Money?

Conclusion

I get enough from Coinabul to buy Krugerrand in Europe. From this perspective I'm satisfied. I do not feel to be damaged. However, I have feeling that the things started to move when I made a public circus and that a lot of other people would get from the Coinabul really just the spot gold price and the premium, shipping and insurance paid would keep the Coinabul. At the same time remains in me a sense of disgust at the methods that I can use in the fight for my demands.

Recommendation
If you are outside from US, do not buy in US. When byuing in US, you should be always warned that you are responsible for your local taxes and local laws. If you buy gold in US, there is a chance that the gold is never sent to you.

Final note
It is very hard to write such text in foreign language. Sori from me english :-)

[paraipan]

My feelings

When I ordered gold in the US for my bitcoins, I felt some mental discomfort. Defense against any unfair conduct accross the ocean, in a foreign language, in a foreign environment and in different time zone can be very difficult. I wanted to spend my bitcoins for gold when the bitcoin first time exceeded $ 30 per bitcoin. I had no time, bitcoin fall very quickly.

So I ordered my Krugerrand as planned from Coinabul now. Coinabul was recommended me by my previous supplier. That's why I was not looking for anyone in Europe.

Communication with Coinabul proved to be very slow. Any information I received only when I requested it and the answer sometimes took several days. After three weeks it was said me that the Krugerrand will not be send to me. I did not understand Coinabul's reasons and reply to my request to return bitcoins was very confusing. At that moment I began to believe that I become a victim of fraud which further strengthened the refund offer far below the amount sent to the US and five day delay in response to my last mail.

The situation was calmed down by a guy here in Czech Republic which called to Coinabul and to me and explained whole situation. Thank you.

Why Coinabul did not send the Krugerrand

The financial system of the world is sick. Fiat money rules the world and any attempt to change the monopoly on the production of the commodity called "money" is percived as dangerous and suspicious. Bitcoin and gold are precisely those commodities that played the money's role whole ages, or aspire to this role. Any manipulation with them thus attracts the attention of the rulers of the current system and automaticly raises suspicion. Therefore, once the Coinabul had some doubt that everything is legal, they stopped whole action and refused to send me the gold. It is evident in all their mails that they want to have everything in order and the effort could be funny from the outsider point of view. But keep in mind that Coinabul is located in a state which showed how easy could be to destroy their job:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

Why the bitcoins was not returned to me

The reason is simple - the did not returned bitcoins because they may not. As I said, current financial system of the world is sick. The only bearer of value are money. It does not matter how the two parties agree - once the relationship is affected by state (courts, financila office, etc.) all the value has to be quoted in money. Someone crashes your car - the court will assign you money compensation, rather than a new car. If someone kill your apple tree, the court will assign you a money, not a bag of apples each of the next twenty years. Coinabul has in terms that they refunds in US dollars. In the doubt, everything is counted in money by the state. Common sense - I put bitcoin, I get bitcoin - is completely unnecessary. This procedure, of course, may damage any part of the trade. And because the rules are determined by the seller, it is the seller which is the stronger part. If the rule "I put bitcoin, I get bitcoin" was valid, the Coinabul's terms would be completely different and the Coinabul would hedge against bitcoin market moves. The hedging is simple - keep  bitcoins until the trade is settled.

Recommended reading:

Murray N. Rothbard: What Has Government Done to Our Money?

Conclusion

I get enough from Coinabul to buy Krugerrand in Europe. From this perspective I'm satisfied. I do not feel to be damaged. However, I have feeling that the things started to move when I made a public circus and that a lot of other people would get from the Coinabul really just the spot gold price and the premium, shipping and insurance paid would keep the Coinabul. At the same time remains in me a sense of disgust at the methods that I can use in the fight for my demands.

Recommendation
If you are outside from US, do not buy in US. When byuing in US, you should be always warned that you are responsible for your local taxes and local laws. If you buy gold in US, there is a chance that the gold is never sent to you.

Final note
It is very hard to write such text in foreign language. Sori from me english :-)

Thank you for writing such an extensive post of you experience with Coinabul, I will consider it on my future purchases.

[rpietila]

Thank you, good that it turned out well.

[dscotese]

...
Why the bitcoins was not returned to me

The reason is simple - they did not return bitcoins because they may not.
...

Thanks for the story.  My legs are still cramped, but I suppose it was worth it.  You are concerned for other customers of Coinabul who might get a refund only of the price of gold, but Coinabul would keep all the other extra expenses.  If you're right, that is a black mark against the company.  It would be nice if others showed up to let us know either way.

I don't believe Coinabul is prohibited by law from sending you 90 BTC.  They are most likely prevented from that by not having bitcoin, but that is a problem they ought to solve.  They ought to change that in their terms of service: "Coinabul will keep your payment until we know that you have what you purchased.  If you request a refund, we will deduct the cost of our expenses and return the rest of your payment in kind.  If we are unable to ship your product, we will return your entire payment in kind.

If that's illegal, then I think the moral thing to do is break the law.  If they want to mitigate exchange rate risk, then their bitcoin prices can be higher.  They could offer the lower price to customers who agree to be reimbursed in fiat at Coinabul's discretion (which is what bravenec did, assuming he read and understood the TOS).  This only means that I wouldn't recommend using them until they make some changes.

If you read Lysander Spooner's excellent book on the history of the Trial By Jury (that's the title too), you will see that the institution of the Trial by Jury is a direct and millenia-old result of bad law.  Martin Luther King, in his famous "Letter from the Birmingham Jail," called on all Americans to actively but peacefully oppose laws that were morally wrong. Every thoughtful person knows that this is true.

I am anticipating a boom in businesses who openly declare that they are aware of unjust laws and will actively disobey them for the good of their customers and the rest of society.  Consider this post as my own such declaration.  With SOPA and PIPA like legislation crawling around the cesspool in the US capitol, I'm looking for ISPs that will make this declaration.

Oops!  I got off topic there, didn't I?  Was it worth it?

[bravenec]

...
Why the bitcoins was not returned to me

The reason is simple - they did not return bitcoins because they may not.
...

Eeee, as I said. It is hard to write such text in foreign language ;-)
I misunderstood english or you misunderstood my text.

It is not needed to return bitcoins because the convention does not force it. The convention is to pay dollars whenever possible. And when in doubt, always pay dollars.

[dscotese]

...
Why the bitcoins was not returned to me

The reason is simple - they did not return bitcoins because they may not.
The reason is simple - they did not return bitcoins because...
It is not needed to return bitcoins because the convention does not force it. The convention is to pay dollars whenever possible. And when in doubt, always pay dollars.

Eeee, as I said. It is hard to write such text in foreign language ;-)
I misunderstood english or you misunderstood my text.

Ok, I see now.  I'm glad you cleared that up.  I made some edits so it's clearer to people who don't pay a lot of attention that Coinabul did right by you.

[dayfall]

I get enough from Coinabul to buy Krugerrand in Europe. From this perspective I'm satisfied.

It looks like they behaved properly in the end.  Good for them.  I need to check out the laws here in the US before I buy some gold in that quantity.

[CanaryInTheMine]

Let's see if this is legit or a scam.  I placed an order for 1 coin from their website.

Sent the bitcoins in.  Got the email confirmation of the order.  Called both numbers several time, left voice mails.  no returned phone call.

Sent an email asking for shipping status.

No responses yet.

[CanaryInTheMine]

no responses today.

[allten]

no responses today.

Bump for watching

I'm in the exact same boat as you.

Wish my order was just an experiment.

I'm starting to speculate that he is speculating with order money 

[ArmoredDragon]

I ordered 4 silver liberty eagles (one troy ounce) on April 3rd, my order still says "processing".

They haven't packed up and left have they? Wish I would have read this thread, wouldn't have bought from them.

[CanaryInTheMine]

another day, no responses from coinabul

[allten]

Received a tracking number today.

I'll post when I get the package.

[zebedee]

CoinaScam

[Phinnaeus Gage]

CoinaScam

u no like conabull

[BadBear]

Can't say I'm a big fan of the idea of giving businesses scammer tags over customer service disputes. The real world is never that black and white, I expect to see Amazon or Newegg here next.

[dmatthewstewart]

Crap! I really shouldof searched the forums before sending coins to Coinabul. Luckily I only ordered 1 Silver American Eagle for a test order. They have not yet responded to me or sent me confirmation of my payment being received.

I just figured since I always saw them advertised all over bitcoin sites, and never heard anyone complaining about them, that they were an ok business.

I emailed them again and no response. So there was an initial email after I made the payment just to confirm they were on the lookout for the order. Then another follow up one the next day asking if they sent an email with tracking info when it shipped.

So far no response.

Is there any other sites that are legit, that people are happy with, that are selling bullion for Bitcoin? Ive seen Amagi Metals pop up recently.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Can't say I'm a big fan of the idea of giving businesses scammer tags over customer service disputes. The real world is never that black and white, I expect to see Amazon or Newegg here next.

Isn't there a guy on this forum that works at Google? He should get the scammer tag to warn people of Google. 

That said, and to drive your sentiment home, Pirate, operating as a business of sorts, ended up not servicing his customers, therefore his tag is unjustified. Just saying with humor, bud.

[HappyBitCoinUser]

People need to accept the way Coinabul does business, or just not buy from them.

They have long shipping times, this we already know. But you will get your coins (if your country allows).

Now about payments and reimbursements...

Obviously when they receive and start processing an order, soon as you make your BTC payment, they probably convert that into USD right away! This is to prevent their business from losing money if the BTC drops in value by time they get the silver and gold to ship.

So the current value of silver/gold vs the current value of BTC on the day you buy is set. They sell BTC right away to order your silver/gold.

Now something goes wrong... and you need refund?

You already know they sold your BTC for the value on the day you make purchase. Common sense is to use that same USD value the silver/gold was sold at, and return that amount of BTC.

If you don't like that system of payment/reimbursement, then you have other options! You could sell the BTC yourself on MtGox, wire the USD to your account, and then use those USD to purchase silver/gold on website that accepts USD. Coinabul is basically acting like the middle man, doing the selling of BTC for you, so that you don't have to sell/wire the money to your bank before making a purchase.

So assuming when you bought the 1 oz gold it was worth $1600, and the total BTC value is about the $1600 value. You send in X number of BitCoins worth $1600 at time of purchase, then you'll receive Y number of BitCoins worth $1600 at time of refund.

You can argue to receive the same amount of BTC all day long until your blue in the face, but it doesn't work that way, and if Coinabul did work that why they'd have potential for huge losses.

This would be less of issue if they had inventory in stock to ship same day that payment was received, to reduce the chance for BTC to change value. But the probably don't have enough money to have huge inventory stocks. So they created a system. Send them BTC. They'll see it for market value of BTC to USD, and give you same day market value of silver/gold, by ordering from other company paid in USD that they got from your BTC.

You can stop crying to get back the same BTC amount you sent, its not going to happen. If you get refunded in BTC then it'll be the same BTC value, not volume.

Enjoy!

[Herodes]

People need to accept the way Coinabul does business, or just not buy from them.

Judging from the stories of customers. The problem is lack of reponsisiveness and helpfullness from the company. Heck, even one of their employees had enough and resigned, posting all about it on this forum. Lost me as a prospective customer for sure.

[Rawted]

Wait, so this entire business revolves around you placing an order, them converting the btc, buying the stuff, waiting for shipment, and then re-mailing to you? Why the heck wouldn't you just do this yourself? Who wants to wait months, pay a premium, and possibly face total loss, over what amounts to just being lazy? Some of you are really stupid when it comes to your money.

[HappyBitCoinUser]

... and finally the lights come on.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Wait, so this entire business revolves around you placing an order, them converting the btc, buying the stuff, waiting for shipment, and then re-mailing to you? Why the heck wouldn't you just do this yourself? Who wants to wait months, pay a premium, and possibly face total loss, over what amounts to just being lazy? Some of you are really stupid when it comes to your money.

Because I want to buy my shovels from ShovelaBull using bitcoins, that's why. All the other shovel dealers want paid the old fashion way, thus they can't be trusted.

Jeez! Do I have to explain everything?

[fourd00rgtz]

I have had orders take 3wks to go from processing to shipped in the past, currently on 2wks processing for my most recent order.

With less staff I wouldn't expect the wait times to get any better. Meanwhile a competitor is hiring additional staff to cope with the onslaught of BTC orders, I've got one in with them too, I bet it arrives first even though it was placed 12days later.

[DonChate]

So, you guys think that coinabul is going to ship all the large volume orders that were placed in the last few days when BTC was $250?  

[HappyBitCoinUser]

They cashed the BTC right away so they already made 10% profits.

[CanaryInTheMine]

I have had orders take 3wks to go from processing to shipped in the past, currently on 2wks processing for my most recent order.

With less staff I wouldn't expect the wait times to get any better. Meanwhile a competitor is hiring additional staff to cope with the onslaught of BTC orders, I've got one in with them too, I bet it arrives first even though it was placed 12days later.

who's the competitor?

[CanaryInTheMine]

Got an email telling me that my order "has been Pending."
really???  how's that telling me anything different that what you have on the website.
When are you shipping?  what's the tracking #?

[davidspitzer]

What is going on here? Is this Jay from Coinabul?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d46dFmAmnuc

[HappyBitCoinUser]

What is going on here? Is this Jay from Coinabul?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d46dFmAmnuc

LOL

Did you make it? Can you explain more?

[davidspitzer]

What is going on here? Is this Jay from Coinabul?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d46dFmAmnuc

LOL

Did you make it? Can you explain more?

It was not me  - I found it on youtube -

[Sander]

What is going on here? Is this Jay from Coinabul?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d46dFmAmnuc

Why is it that Americans cry assault over every fart in their general direction.

[HappyBitCoinUser]

People are dramatic, esp when trying to get someone else in trouble.

I had a neighbor that would roll around in the street crying about his leg over the slightest thing, and then his parents would come running out. So pathetic.

Even if that video ended up in court in an assault case, I'm sure any jury with common sense can see that door opening was a possible mistake, and obviously the camera man wasn't hurt, just being dramatic and trying to entrap.

[davidspitzer]

People are dramatic, esp when trying to get someone else in trouble.

I had a neighbor that would roll around in the street crying about his leg over the slightest thing, and then his parents would come running out. So pathetic.

Even if that video ended up in court in an assault case, I'm sure any jury with common sense can see that door opening was a possible mistake, and obviously the camera man wasn't hurt, just being dramatic and trying to entrap.

Can anyone verify if that was actually Jay of Coinabul

[fourd00rgtz]

I have had orders take 3wks to go from processing to shipped in the past, currently on 2wks processing for my most recent order.

With less staff I wouldn't expect the wait times to get any better. Meanwhile a competitor is hiring additional staff to cope with the onslaught of BTC orders, I've got one in with them too, I bet it arrives first even though it was placed 12days later.

who's the competitor?

AmagiMetals link in my signature.

[CanaryInTheMine]

Still Pending... no shipping info.

[rpietila]

Can anyone verify if that was actually Jay of Coinabul

Yeah. Good question. Why don't you all attend your own business. Selling precious metals is a pain, even just this week I got 2 international insured gold orders returned from post office, with no reason  Being busy is not a scam, and you can always buy from me (EU ONLY) or Amagi Metals that seems legit.

[fourd00rgtz]

I have had orders take 3wks to go from processing to shipped in the past, currently on 2wks processing for my most recent order.

With less staff I wouldn't expect the wait times to get any better. Meanwhile a competitor is hiring additional staff to cope with the onslaught of BTC orders, I've got one in with them too, I bet it arrives first even though it was placed 12days later.

March 27th order, marked as complete and shipped April 18th..... Slow, but apparently on the way.

[CanaryInTheMine]

No change on my order. Still shows as Pending.

[davidspitzer]

No change on my order. Still shows as Pending.

Be prepared to see that for a while

[HappyBitCoinUser]

Most people that ordered, dont' they agree that is generally the status for long time but package does arrive after a few weeks? Just takes time.

[El Cabron]

Most people that ordered, dont' they agree that is generally the status for long time but package does arrive after a few weeks? Just takes time.

or months

[CanaryInTheMine]

or if ever...

[Justin00]

edit

[zebedee]

No surprise by now of course, but with Coinabul it's heads they win, tails you lose.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=181662.0

[CanaryInTheMine]

my order is still "pending"

[CanaryInTheMine]

Update:  it took exactly 1 month to receive my order...
So, they do ship what you order but absolutely lack on customer service and keeping you in the loop...
They should add more statuses, things like your coins have been ordered by us, we expect to receive our order on such and such date... then begin stating your coin is here, we are packaging, then we ship etc.. etc...
if they could communicate more steps along the way and tell us where our order is with respect to the expected life cycle of the order, coinabul would skyrocket with satisfied customers... but in my opinion, they aren't run by folks who give a shit about customer service...

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Update:  it took exactly 1 month to receive my order...
So, they do ship what you order but absolutely lack on customer service and keeping you in the loop...
They should add more statuses, things like your coins have been ordered by us, we expect to receive our order on such and such date... then begin stating your coin is here, we are packaging, then we ship etc.. etc...
if they could communicate more steps along the way and tell us where our order is with respect to the expected life cycle of the order, coinabul would skyrocket with satisfied customers... but in my opinion, they aren't run by folks who give a shit about customer service...

There's only so much you can do while using free Wi-Fi at a Starbucks.

[Stunna]

Hope everything gets sorted out for you :|

[chadqberry]

I would sure love to get mine, it's been a month and a half for me.  The only responses to all my emails were one from Jay that said it would ship the week before last and another one from him that said it would ship last week.  It has still not shipped.  My order was 85 btc, it appears the orders in that range are the ones to get screwed.  What is the connection with coinabul and bitcontalk?  It seems there must be one as many have done much less to get a scammer tag.

[davidspitzer]

I just purchased some silver at AmagiMetals - I will post my experience - they have limited stock on a lot of silver so I purchased some little stuff they said was in stock. I must concur with the originator of this thread that the service from Coinabul is lacking for my taste. In fairness they did ship to me all that I ordered (half a dozen orders over 6 months) but a couple of the orders took several week to a month+ to fulfill.


My expectation for purchasing coins (if they are stated as being in stock) is a few days of order handling and normal shipping transit time - a week and a half to two weeks is what would be reasonable in my book. I do not know coinabul's process, but I get the impression that they source the coins after purchase - For the premium they charge over spot, the time and effort required, and now apparently the risk, is not worth it to me.

[threeip]

Can anyone verify if that was actually Jay of Coinabul

Yeah. Good question. Why don't you all attend your own business. Selling precious metals is a pain, even just this week I got 2 international insured gold orders returned from post office, with no reason  Being busy is not a scam, and you can always buy from me (EU ONLY) or Amagi Metals that seems legit.

Still paging Jay of Coinabul... or Jonathan Owens?

[chadqberry]

After two months I received my order, however it was very light to the tune of about $800 worth of silver.  I got the runaround for several more days before being told it was due to the difference in price of the BTC from the time I placed the order to the time it was accepted.  This is a blatant scam and they have just enough friends here with Thymos and others not to get a scammer tag.  Also, they are smart enough I think to make 90% of their clients happy so only 10% getting screwed doesn't get out of hand.  They were also smart enough recently to hire some help and respond to emails much faster.  Don't get sucked into that, they are still purposefully scamming a percentage of all their customers.  Use another service!

[Rawted]

After two months I received my order, however it was very light to the tune of about $800 worth of silver.  I got the runaround for several more days before being told it was due to the difference in price of the BTC from the time I placed the order to the time it was accepted.  This is a blatant scam and they have just enough friends here with Thymos and others not to get a scammer tag.  Also, they are smart enough I think to make 90% of their clients happy so only 10% getting screwed doesn't get out of hand.  They were also smart enough recently to hire some help and respond to emails much faster.  Don't get sucked into that, they are still purposefully scamming a percentage of all their customers.  Use another service!

Another scam report.