SCAM - Coinabul owe me 90btc

[SgtSpike]

No matter what the origin country, precious metals are unable to be imported into his nation(see http://countries.bridgat.com/Czech_Republic_Import_Restrictions.html http://www.fedex.com/us/international/irc/profiles/irc_cz_profile.html http://pe.usps.com/text/imm/ce_019.htm).

Are you saying that what Fedex has posted on their website is a lie?

Fedex is not lying. Fedex is mistaken.

There is "zákon 235/2004 Sb. § 92" which defines investment gold and frees the investment gold from value added tax when sold in Czech republic, from EU to Czech republic and when iimporting from other states. There are no restrictions.
Such conditions should be equal in whole European Union, as far as I know.
[/quote]
Cool.  Then Coinabul should ship you the golds.

[1715578898]

1715578898

[SgtSpike]

The terms may be crooked in your mind, but they are not illegal (that I am aware of), and everyone is free to read them BEFORE ordering.  And of course Coinabul would still owe them a full refund in USD equivalent if BTC dropped to $1.  The BTC price after the time of purchase is completely irrelevant - again, because of the terms that Coinabul lists.

So your argument is essentially that so long as Coinabul's terms were knowable to the customer prior to the order being placed and the customer placed the order nonetheless, Coinabul cannot be scamming if they follow their own terms.

Coinabul's TOS says "If Coinabul is held liable to you for a transaction, liability will be limited to either the amount which you paid during the transaction or $100; whichever is greater."

So if I place an order for $1,000 worth of gold, Coinabul opts not to send me the gold for no reason, I sue them, get a $1,000 judgment and they pay me $100, that wouldn't be Coinabul scamming?

It is, unfortunately, fairly routine for companies to have terms of service that say "We can do whatever we want and your only recourse is to ask us nicely to do something else". While companies think this provides them with all kinds of legal protection, what it actually does is cause people to have no choice but to ignore the terms when determining if the company acted responsibly or not. Coinabul's terms are these kinds of terms -- many of them contain "we can do whatever we want and you have to take it " clauses, such as this beauty: "Coinabul is not liable for any errors, negligence, or inability to fulfill any orders."

I'm not saying Coinabul shouldn't have this kind of ToS. While I think it's idiotic, I understand that lots of companies do this, often as a result of specific legal advice. And I'm not a lawyer. But it forces people to basically ignore the Tos when deciding whether to buy from the company or evaluating whether the company acted reasonably.

The reason nobody bothers to read a ToS is because they all say the same thing -- we can do whatever we want.

And here's where it hurts you -- this would be a reasonable term of service. So if Coinabul could argue that its ToS was reasonable and that customers agreed that they were treated fairly so long as Coinabul complied with its ToS, I'd agree 100%. However, because Coinabul's ToS is of the "we can do whatever we want" type, "we complied with our ToS" can't provide a defense against an accusation of scamming. So "make your ToS make you liable for nothing" may be good legal advice, but it fails in the court of public opinion because it prevents you from being able to point to your ToS to justify your conduct. An unreasonable agreement can't justify anything.

Like I said, their terms are not illegal (that I know of).  I know there are limits on ToS, and I'm not really familiar with laws surrounding this, but the fact that credit card refunds can differ based on currency exchange rates is really all the proof that I need to see that it is a normal practice for a business to have a single currency of denomination, and that a business is generally free to choose what currency to denominate in.

I could certainly be wrong too.

And I'm not saying this is the best thing for Coinabul either, nor am I trying to defend their business practice or terms of service.  I am strictly pointing out the legality of it, and that they would not fit the legal definition of a scam as far as I am aware, provided they actually do refund the customer in USD equivalent.

From an ethical and business reputation standpoint, I think the right thing to do would be to refund the entire BTC balance (if they never sold the BTC) or refund the USD equivalent, shipping including, of the BTC at the time that the order was made (if they did sell the BTC).  Just my opinion, but I would find either of these to be an acceptable resolution, and I believe OP would as well.

[Herodes]

From an ethical and business reputation standpoint, I think the right thing to do would be to refund the entire BTC balance (if they never sold the BTC) or refund the USD equivalent, shipping including, of the BTC at the time that the order was made (if they did sell the BTC).  Just my opinion, but I would find either of these to be an acceptable resolution, and I believe OP would as well.

If a customer makes an order, and it can't be shipped for whatever reason, then you contact the customer immediately and come to an agreement, then public shitstorms like these will be avoided.

[bravenec]

From an ethical and business reputation standpoint, I think the right thing to do would be to refund the entire BTC balance (if they never sold the BTC) or refund the USD equivalent, shipping including, of the BTC at the time that the order was made (if they did sell the BTC).  Just my opinion, but I would find either of these to be an acceptable resolution, and I believe OP would as well.

If a customer makes an order, and it can't be shipped for whatever reason, then you contact the customer immediately and come to an agreement, then public shitstorms like these will be avoided.

Exactly. I made the order Feb 6. No confirmation was sent to me, until I asked for it at Feb 13. No mail was sent to me until Feb 27 when I asked for information again and it was told to me that the Krugerrand cannot be sent to me. Three weeks from order! "We will see, what we can do" was replied to me. After next urgencies at Mar 5 I was asked for other week of time. At the moment I believed that I lost all my money and my patience was over. No mercy to scammer. A day later it was offered me $1600 and I have to wait another 5 days for answer. Then I write to this forum.

[Herodes]

From an ethical and business reputation standpoint, I think the right thing to do would be to refund the entire BTC balance (if they never sold the BTC) or refund the USD equivalent, shipping including, of the BTC at the time that the order was made (if they did sell the BTC).  Just my opinion, but I would find either of these to be an acceptable resolution, and I believe OP would as well.

If a customer makes an order, and it can't be shipped for whatever reason, then you contact the customer immediately and come to an agreement, then public shitstorms like these will be avoided.

Exactly. I made the order Feb 6. No confirmation was sent to me, until I asked for it at Feb 13. No mail was sent to me until Feb 27 when I asked for information again and it was told to me that the Krugerrand cannot be sent to me. Three weeks from order! "We will see, what we can do" was replied to me. After next urgencies at Mar 5 I was asked for other week of time. At the moment I believed that I lost all my money and my patience was over. No mercy to scammer. A day later it was offered me $1600 and I have to wait another 5 days for answer. Then I write to this forum.

As long as your side of the story is correct, then this behaviour is unacceptable. The best thing may maybe not to do anybusiness with Coinabul whatsoever. I've seen them coming on this forum with lengthy explanations too, that really doesn't hold water.

[SgtSpike]

From an ethical and business reputation standpoint, I think the right thing to do would be to refund the entire BTC balance (if they never sold the BTC) or refund the USD equivalent, shipping including, of the BTC at the time that the order was made (if they did sell the BTC).  Just my opinion, but I would find either of these to be an acceptable resolution, and I believe OP would as well.

If a customer makes an order, and it can't be shipped for whatever reason, then you contact the customer immediately and come to an agreement, then public shitstorms like these will be avoided.

Yeah, I agree.  If I was Coinabul, I'd be going above and beyond to correct this to hopefully salvage some remaining shreds of reputation.

[Raoul Duke]

From an ethical and business reputation standpoint, I think the right thing to do would be to refund the entire BTC balance (if they never sold the BTC) or refund the USD equivalent, shipping including, of the BTC at the time that the order was made (if they did sell the BTC).  Just my opinion, but I would find either of these to be an acceptable resolution, and I believe OP would as well.

If a customer makes an order, and it can't be shipped for whatever reason, then you contact the customer immediately and come to an agreement, then public shitstorms like these will be avoided.

Yeah, I agree.  If I was Coinabul, I'd be going above and beyond to correct this to hopefully salvage some remaining shreds of reputation.

Did they ever had a reputation to shred?
Has anyone here saw the video that other scammer, JRO, posted when he had a quarrel with Jon from Coinabul?

[VeeMiner]

I think this is a simple case. Coinabul should either return the BTC or ship the coin. End of story. If they don't, they are not a trustworthy company.

[slush]

There is "zákon 235/2004 Sb. § 92" which defines investment gold and frees the investment gold from value added tax when sold in Czech republic, from EU to Czech republic and when iimporting from other states. There are no restrictions.
Such conditions should be equal in whole European Union, as far as I know.

Actually that's not absolutely correct. Gold is free from VAT in Czech, but for that reason there're many additional restrictions in trading and only registered companies are allowed to trade gold. I think this is the core of a problem, because I think this is a Czech speciality and these laws doesn't apply to whole EU. And Coinabul expected that we here in Bananastan have reasonable laws, which was huge mistake.

[rpietila]

And Coinabul expected that we here in Bananastan have reasonable laws, which was huge mistake.

+1

As for reasonable laws, don't try your luck by entering Russia with an encrypted HD..

[Coinabul]

Hi all,

I've been emailing Petr on an almost daily for nearly 3 weeks now trying to work with him to find the best way to refund his purchase and shipping(USD or BTC) that would be most ideal. Unfortunately, this line of communication was sidelined; he has thusly missed a few opportunities to get BTC cheaply so I've generated a MTGOX-USD coupon which has been sent to him. This includes $1603 for the coin itself, $105 for the shipping which was never used, and $50 as a gift to help him get an ounce of gold in a way which will be viable given the import restrictions he's forced to deal with.

As far as the local laws for the Czech Republic:
"gold, silver, and platinum may be imported only by authorization of the State Bank."
"Import licenses and quantity restrictions are applicable for many articles sent to the Czech Republic. Therefore, senders should ascertain from the addressee before mailing whether the contents are permitted and whether the necessary documents are held."

That said, we could possibly have attempted to send his coin(depending on our legal team's viewpoint) but it would have never made it to his hands and insurance companies of any type have coverage exceptions for government seizures so realistically this is not an option - as is the case with ANY bullion dealer not located in the Czech Republic and licensed by the State Bank.

The Czech Republic has been removed from our site some time ago to prevent this issue in the future. As always, we ask that if you are ordering from outside the USA you check your local import restrictions to ensure that we can get your desired products to you safely. While many countries have readily available import / export information, some nations are difficult for us as outsiders to investigate due to language barriers and continually changing laws. If you do have import restriction information for us as a resident of another nation which will help us make your Bitcoin to metal experience smoother, we welcome your emails via contact[-at-]coinabul.com

Thanks for helping us iron out the kinks in global Bitcoin trade,
Jay

[Zeeks]

Just send him back exactly what he sent you. What is difficult about this? The longer you wait the worse you look...

[speeder]

Even if he send back exactly in USD, this would still be around 1900 not 1600...

Coinabul is seemly asking for a scammer tag

[bravenec]

I had a deal with Coinabul. I have not free time just now to write some explanation, I will write it later. My apology for Coinabul.

[rpietila]

I had a deal with Coinabul. I have not free time just now to write some explanation, I will write it later. My apology for Coinabul.

  ! CONGRATULATIONS !

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Since I saw this issue pop up after having no order volume to the Czech Republic until a couple of weeks ago, the Czech Republic has been disabled entirely in our system. We remove any countries that are glaringly obvious, but with 244 countries and countless territories in service, as well as language barriers for many of them which makes research very difficult, it's nearly impossible to verify on our end which countries across the globe have a specific ban on the import of precious metals, hence the special International Orders page linked to from the footer on every page within our site.

The Czech Republic has been removed from our site some time ago to prevent this issue in the future.

Although technically correct, the latter implies a much longer time frame. Reminds me of the follow:

[Herodes]

The Czech Republic has been removed from our site some time ago to prevent this issue in the future.

Please don't remove the country in it's entirety, leave a little bit left, so I can go there on vacation sometime.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

The Czech Republic has been removed from our site some time ago to prevent this issue in the future.

Please don't remove the country in it's entirety, leave a little bit left, so I can go there on vacation sometime.

Let's go fishing there, Herodes. Looks like the bass are ready to spawn.

[repentance]

Did they ever had a reputation to shred?
Has anyone here saw the video that other scammer, JRO, posted when he had a quarrel with Jon from Coinabul?

Some of Bitcoin's funniest moments have come from shonky operators arguing with each other.

[Herodes]

The Czech Republic has been removed from our site some time ago to prevent this issue in the future.

Please don't remove the country in it's entirety, leave a little bit left, so I can go there on vacation sometime.

Let's go fishing there, Herodes. Looks like the bass are ready to spawn.

That looked quite nice!