IDEAL: no ICOs, no proof-of-work, no proof-of-stake, no governance, and no forks

[twunkle]

To be honest, I actually disagree with all of OP points. The only thing what is missing, is the free secured (unforked, tamperproof) trade between them that is not item of speculation or profit, manipulation, ownership etc itself. Unfortunately that seems impossible to me, but obviously I know very little about it also or in any case or whatever  

[brekyrself]

@iamnotback I do not want to quote your large DPOS statement however I do have a few questions.  You understand code and crypto better then most of us.

The BitShares website states that the block witnesses are shuffled based on two different criteria.  "The slate of active witnesses is updated once every maintenance interval (1 day) when the votes are tallied. The witnesses are then shuffled, and each witness is given a turn to produce a block at a fixed schedule of one block every 2 seconds. After all witnesses have had a turn, they are shuffled again. If a witness does not produce a block in their time slot, then that time slot is skipped, and the next witness produces the next block."

Is there something in the code or explorer that would let us know exactly which witness is set to produce the next block ahead of time?  Even with a DDOS, a witness should have multiple instances ready to take over on different physical machines/locations.  That should mitigate that attack vector.  Granted if EVERY witness were unable to produce a block, the network would come to a halt and users would not be able to cast a vote (transaction) to vote in new witnesses.  The chances of that happening I would believe are very slim.  According to the documentation stake holders can increase the number of witnesses by vote.

You do have a home run point about PoW in that anyone at anytime can setup a full node etc...  Hurry up and code!!!

[iamnotback]

@iamnotback I do not want to quote your large DPOS statement however I do have a few questions.  You understand code and crypto better then most of us.

The BitShares website states that the block witnesses are shuffled based on two different criteria.  "The slate of active witnesses is updated once every maintenance interval (1 day) when the votes are tallied. The witnesses are then shuffled, and each witness is given a turn to produce a block at a fixed schedule of one block every 2 seconds. After all witnesses have had a turn, they are shuffled again. If a witness does not produce a block in their time slot, then that time slot is skipped, and the next witness produces the next block."

Is there something in the code or explorer that would let us know exactly which witness is set to produce the next block ahead of time?  Even with a DDOS, a witness should have multiple instances ready to take over on different physical machines/locations.  That should mitigate that attack vector.  Granted if EVERY witness were unable to produce a block, the network would come to a halt and users would not be able to cast a vote (transaction) to vote in new witnesses.  The chances of that happening I would believe are very slim.  According to the documentation stake holders can increase the number of witnesses by vote.

You do have a home run point about PoW in that anyone at anytime can setup a full node etc...  Hurry up and code!!!

DPOS is an innovation. I am not trying to imply it has no worth. It may be the best for scaling that is available right now.

Since the ordering of the nodes which can produce each block (aka 'witnesses') is known a priori, then yes this information must be public otherwise the other nodes (even non-witness nodes) wouldn't know which witnesses has the right to produce that block.

I agree that a witness could in theory set up many IP addresses on many hosts to absorb DDoS attacks, but this is very expensive if every witness has to duplicate all this infrastructure. And so naturally it force the witnesses to collude to share costs, so then you no longer have a decentralized, permissionless system.

Also PoS (including DPoS) is basically a permissioned, centralized system, because the whales will control it.

If we just wanted a centralized, persmissioned system, then we don't need block chains. We could do that more efficiently. We have it already, it is named Paypal.

The only way you scale this globally, is if nobody owns it. This is why Paypal can't disrupt the existing financial structure of the world. Too many vested interests fighting turf battles.

So yes, you will need my design.

I already know what I have. The only issue is my health. I am fighting very hard to overturn a chronic health condition. 3 hours nonstop in the gym yesterday, then running in the evening, then running again this morning. Had my entire body coated in 25% oregano oil, turned red. Totally exhausted in the evening, slept like a rock could barely move. Jumped out of bed full of energy. Age 51, my eyes totally blurred when I get off the computer can't even see anyone's face. Got off the computer for 2 days and  could start to see again.

So I won't be posting much. I am in a battle right now and the only thing that matters now is action. I don't know if this old body, eyes, health of mine is going to perform or not. But now I am just going to be off this forum and fighting for it with 110% effort.

Thx.

I don't know any coins that operate without either Proof-of-work or Proof-of-Stake. To make your ideal a reality someone would have to invent a new way to power a block chain, unless I missed a coin that quietly implemented a new system without many people noticing.

There is a way to power a blockchain without proof of work or proof of stake, and we're doing it on the Carboncoin

5 posts in a row pumping your shitcoin in this thread.

[axismundi]

Not pumping, just lots to discuss. Didn't mean to offend you, but shitcoin pretty offensive! Actually asked you if it was ok in our pm conversation, you didn't object - you probably should have

[iamnotback]

Ethereum hard forks and violates the entire raison d'être of block chains:

Finally we can move on!

Nope. There is no moving on from violating the only reason we even want block chains— which is that we don't have to trust anyone that our contracts will be honored.

Agreed. The disgusting vile FUD that's been spread by the haters has been pathetic. If you don't hold ETH you don't get a say in how it's run so why spread FUD? The ETH community has spoke in a landslide consensus.

It is not FUD. It is just our opinion of the point of block chains. Those who agree with you that block chains should be permissioned ledgers like a fiat system or Paypal, will stay with ETH.

But as others are pointing out to you, violating the raison d'être of block chains is very likely to cause you to lose most of the community support. You'll only be left with idiots, R3 bankers, and the whales who've been allegedly pumping this token by manipulating the float on Poloneix and Krakan.

Wow 2% of the ETH voted and that is supposed to be mandate  

Utilizing the blockchain, a transparent and non-gameable voting method shows that out of more than 1.5 million eth, 97%, valued currently at $15 million, are in favor of the fork, with only just above 40,000 eth against.

Even if 100% had voted, my reaction would remain as follows...

Long live fiat! Hurray!

This is absolutely momentous day for it validates everything I am have been working on¹.

Also PoS (including DPoS) is basically a permissioned, centralized system, because the whales will control it.

If we just wanted a centralized, persmissioned system, then we don't need block chains. We could do that more efficiently. We have it already, it is named Paypal.

The only way you scale this globally, is if nobody owns it. This is why Paypal can't disrupt the existing financial structure of the world. Too many vested interests fighting turf battles.

1	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1319681.msg15137236#msg15137236 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1413819.msg15507348#msg15507348

But I will forward your concerns on to the relevant department.

Ah so Ethereum is a governed token system now with actual departments? This is sounding awefully similar to the government structures that are collapsing all over the world due to corruption and special interests capturing the power vacuum.

I was being facetious. Sorry it needed pointed out.

Freudian slip, because you were actually telling the truth for a change.

[DemetriusAstroBlack]

I don't know any coins that operate without either Proof-of-work or Proof-of-Stake. To make your ideal a reality someone would have to invent a new way to power a block chain, unless I missed a coin that quietly implemented a new system without many people noticing.

There is a way to power a blockchain without proof of work or proof of stake, and we're doing it on the Carboncoin

It's not the perfect solution, because as the op is well aware, a perfect solution does not exist

We have demonstrated our ethos and trustworthiness by operating without security breach for over 2 year. This becomes more valuable the longer it goes on.

Anyone can hash on the network but they wont be rewarded with enough coins to make it worthwhile to do that in anything other than the most effective way.

I have my "ideal" structure for a coin, which will be implemented on the carboncoin project at some stage in the future but in the meantime we have been able to add approximately 500 non crypto users since we started (who have bought coins coming from the market), and that is without any significant fundraising or resources for marketing or development.

The funding is now happening, so we will see where it goes. I would very much like to engage this community and find fellow innovators to work with on the ideal currency application of the blockchain - Carboncoin continues to be my best effort

Says the so called dev of a copy paste clone that recently had the chain stop for hours!!!  His shitcoin has a block time of 100 seconds and he cant explain this:

643809   2 hours 18 minutes
643808   2 hours 23 minutes
643807   11 hours 56 minutes
643806   12 hours 30 minutes
643805   13 hours 10 minutes
643804   13 hours 11 minutes
643803   13 hours 35 minutes
643802   13 hours 52 minutes
643801   18 hours 57 minutes

[b0art]

ICO's are the best to make money on in crypto. Most of my ico investments have done 2x or more.

[iTradeChips]

how about a distribution model using captchas or something similar?

[kiklo]

how about a distribution model using captchas or something similar?

You just reinvented the Free coin Faucet. 
Only variable is how much you seed the faucet with.
http://cryptoguru.tk/Faucet/index.php?Currency=ZEIT

 

[kiklo]

Says the so called dev of a copy paste clone that recently had the chain stop for hours!!!  His shitcoin has a block time of 100 seconds and he cant explain this:

643809   2 hours 18 minutes
643808   2 hours 23 minutes
643807   11 hours 56 minutes
643806   12 hours 30 minutes
643805   13 hours 10 minutes
643804   13 hours 11 minutes
643803   13 hours 35 minutes
643802   13 hours 52 minutes
643801   18 hours 57 minutes

Hmm,
1st I have ever heard of this carbon coin , but
It seems to be Proof of Work using scrypt algo

Difficulty   0.00972089  at Block Height 643807  Date/Time= 2016-06-23 10:35:59
Difficulty    0.00972089 at Block Height  643808  Date/Time= 2016-06-23 20:09:03

At the current post time there are only 10 connections Network Clients seen in the last 24 hours
However at current post time there is Only 1 Active Pool/Miner
https://chainz.cryptoid.info/carbon/#!extraction

Easy Answer their were 0 PoW miners active or the miners did not have enough processing power to overcome the difficulty level, during the block gap.
Also would speculate that there is not enough Hash Power being used with this coin to keep a 100 second block time at its current difficulty level.

After a closer look at the difficulty #s , carboncoin's difficulty only changes every 11 or 12 blocks .
So its basically needs more mining power or the dev needs to set the difficulty to update every single block instead of every ~12 blocks.
Signs of a dying PoW coin, IMO .

 

[DemetriusAstroBlack]

It has been dead.  It just got delisted for lack of volume from ccex and is only on one exchange that just had a period of 48+ hours of no transactions.  There is 0 buy orders and there is no pairing for a lower value coin.  The original ANN is shutdown and DEV is delusional.  I called him out for his coin being ran by a single raspberry pi but he denied it.  CARB is supposed to be about carbon offsetting but he really cant back up any claims on how this is done at all. He has a picture of some trees planted on farm land and claims it's a forest that was paid for with these coins.

[iamnotback]

how about a distribution model using captchas or something similar?

You just reinvented the Free coin Faucet.  
Only variable is how much you seed the faucet with.
http://cryptoguru.tk/Faucet/index.php?Currency=ZEIT

 

The solutions to the catpchas can't be decentralized. Someone has to create them. If you created them publicly (e.g. randomized entropy from the proof-of-work mining), then no one needs to solve them.

[MarketMagic]

ICO's are the best to make money on in crypto. Most of my ico investments have done 2x or more.

quote from OP:

ICOs enable insiders to buy from themselves, creating a non-free market distribution of the money supply, thus manipulating all the market parameters and effects creating a controlled, non-free market.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1524111.msg15340159#msg15340159
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1413819.msg15343686#msg15343686

[Carboncoin Trust]

After a closer look at the difficulty #s , carboncoin's difficulty only changes every 11 or 12 blocks .
So its basically needs more mining power or the dev needs to set the difficulty to update every single block instead of every ~12 blocks.
Signs of a dying PoW coin, IMO .

 

You're seeing signs of a self funded startup, over two years in, distributed at low value to people who agree with the ethos, providing the equivalent level of security of funds as other crypto-currencies on next to no energy consumption.

This is a real world evolution of the technology - it's not perfect, but it is doing the best we could as pragmatically as possible with what was available to us - and it is that fact which has clear synergy with what is proposed in this discussion.

We have the same security as PoS but there is no extra chainsize burden. It's not the number of people hashing it's the fact that they can hash that is important.

Troll's account is used for one purpose and one purpose only. He's been able to demonstrate no achievements whatsoever, and after countless attempts to appease and reason with him we have had no option other than to ignore him and continue to delete his arbitrary posts on our thread.

Do drop by: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1131250

[iamnotback]

Do drop by: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1131250

STOP spamming my thread with your nonsense shitcoin promotion. If you have something specific to say about the OP, please post. Otherwise please do not post again in this thread.

[raphma]

no ICOs, no proof-of-work, no proof-of-stake, no governance, and no forks

so, no coin at all? should we just stay with FIAT then?
lol

if you are completely against this system, you should have a better solution, shouldnt you?

[iamnotback]

My analysis of Paul Sztorc's blog post about oracles, smart contracts, and side-chains is relevant to this thread.

[DemetriusAstroBlack]

Have you heard about carbon coin?  The best part is that amost no one uses it.  It is part of our model to stay green.

[iamnotback]

Have you heard about carbon coin?  The best part is that amost no one uses it.  It is part of our model to stay green.

WTF  I asked you idiots to stop spamming your off-topic shitcoin in this thread. Your post has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

[fartbags]

I have an idea for IDEAL. It is basically a decentralized "App store".

My idea is a box that runs open source software. This software allows you to validate for any coins that you chose. Anyone can create any coin and anyone can use any coin. Some coins may fork and others may not. You can not use any coins if you do not own a box. Coins select the reward you get for processing its transactions.